Toulon's Mourad Boudjellal and the European League

[Flash Gordon]

Toulon owner wants to scrap the Champions Cup, start a European Super League

Mourad Boudjellal also wants to make room in the calendar for a Club World Cup.

Mourad Boudjellal wants to alter the European rugby calendar. Mourad Boudjellal wants to alter the European rugby calendar.

THE CHAMPIONS CUP may be in just its second season, but one prominent club owner already wants to see it scrapped.
Mourad Boudjellal believes the current competition format doesn’t work and should be replaced by a European League with 20 clubs, six French, six English and, presumably, the remaining eight coming from the Pro12.
The Toulon owner told Canal+ the league would be formed by two groups of ten, playing 18 round robin matches before a knockout stage that begins with a quarter-final meaning the total number of games would be 21 for the finalists.
Boudjellal’s plan wouldn’t see the scrapping of the French Top 14. Instead, it would be reduced to 12 clubs with relegation and promotion to and from the European Super League.
His proposed scheme would also see the four European Super League semi-finalists face the final four from Super Rugby in a Club World Cup format.
Boudjellal’s argument is that, even if a French club was to reach the final of the Club World Cup, they would play a maximum of 26 games, 13 less than the current maximum of 39 games.
(From the 42)

[cormac]

Think it's what the NH season is crying out for.

[simonokeeffe]

hes some cry baby that he wants a new tournament once his team stops winning it

not going to happen and it would be a disaster for European rugby and we'd end up with a soccer style situation of the Champions League reigning supreme over internationals

the 4 pro 12 teams not in it may as well be scrapped, Welsh and Scots have to revert to piddling domestic leagues and or Italian rugby thrown under the bus

[Dave Cahill]

we'd end up with a soccer style situation of the Champions League reigning supreme over internationals

This is inevitable one way or another, all we can do is gain a measure of control over it - make sure we're inside the tent pissing out.

[simonokeeffe]

we'd end up with a soccer style situation of the Champions League reigning supreme over internationals

This is inevitable one way or another, all we can do is gain a measure of control over it - make sure we're inside the tent pissing out.

I dont think its inevitable as it stands, Irish fans following Irish teams full of Irish players, Welsh bringing their players back, Scots kind of between the two

Plus Champions League is pretty much all on free TV, 6 nations staying on free TV keeps it massively ahead of Champions Cup in general public conscious, a tournament which also has less Welsh and Scottish teams in it nowadays

would love to know what viewing figures are like for BT in England

[Ruckedtobits]

Hard to see where he gets his 26 match season. There are currently approx 10 internatio.al games spread over 3 windows, Autumn, 6N and June Tour. World Rugby won't interfere with number of Test Matches, only the timing of them. International rugby funds every Union. The Clubs (French & English) merely raise the cost of player contracts and thus the underlying overheads and make profitability lower.

[enby]

can't imagine the French and English clubs agreeing to either the 6/6/8 split or to foregoing participation in their national leagues. On a selfish level it might be an attractive escape out of the dead end that is the Pro 12

[wprathead]

can't imagine the French and English clubs agreeing to either the 6/6/8 split or to foregoing participation in their national leagues. On a selfish level it might be an attractive escape out of the dead end that is the Pro 12

Why don't people just embrace the Pro12?

[Flash Gordon]

we'd end up with a soccer style situation of the Champions League reigning supreme over internationals

This is inevitable one way or another, all we can do is gain a measure of control over it - make sure we're inside the tent pissing out.

I agree, think we should have been leading this conversation when we were the dominant force in European Rugby, instead we let the English and French decide our destiny and as a consequnece, unless something changes we may never win a European Cup again. Think looking at this from Leinster's view it would lend us the income generating opportunity, keep our players at home and help us to be competitive at the highest level. From a fan point of view games week in week out vs Leicester, Toulouse, Toulon, Saracens, ASM would be an amazing prospect for both supporters and players.

The biggest problem with getting this down will be the IRFU I'd imagine.

[simonokeeffe]

can't imagine the French and English clubs agreeing to either the 6/6/8 split or to foregoing participation in their national leagues. On a selfish level it might be an attractive escape out of the dead end that is the Pro 12

Why don't people just embrace the Pro12?

would involve too much of a volte face for too many people

[Grumpy Old Man]

From a fan point of view games week in week out vs Leicester, Toulouse, Toulon, Saracens, ASM would be an amazing prospect for both supporters and players.

I really have difficulty with this argument - I think familiarity breeds contempt and it wouldn't be too long before the thrill wore off - as it already has to a large extent when dealing with clubs with great histories like Llanelli and Cardiff. We'd be giving out about French clubs not trying away from home, and how big money clubs like Saracens and Bath are spoiling the competition.

Presumably you'd be happy to throw one, or possibly two, of the Irish provinces under a bus as well. Where are they going to play if there is no Pro12? You would possibly need a second and possibly third division and I'm not sure that the big boys would want to spread the money around that much.

[artaneboy]

From a fan point of view games week in week out vs Leicester, Toulouse, Toulon, Saracens, ASM would be an amazing prospect for both supporters and players.

I really have difficulty with this argument - I think familiarity breeds contempt and it wouldn't be too long before the thrill wore off - as it already has to a large extent when dealing with clubs with great histories like Llanelli and Cardiff. We'd be giving out about French clubs not trying away from home, and how big money clubs like Saracens and Bath are spoiling the competition.

Presumably you'd be happy to throw one, or possibly two, of the Irish provinces under a bus as well. Where are they going to play if there is no Pro12? You would possibly need a second and possibly third division and I'm not sure that the big boys would want to spread the money around that much.

I agree entirely. There's a cynicism to the basic argument, that ignores the lessons of history. There's a lot of talk about "inevitability", etc., and the supposed high quality. Both flawed propositions at best

The only inevitability of that thesis, is that if you dine with the wolves of the French and English leagues, you will inevitably be starved of resources. The lesson of the Oligarchs Cup is the most recent example. If we aid the likes of Wray and the French owners in their to control the club and therefore national game we will be disregarded and walked upon at the earliest opportunity. If we aid the unions in resisting- it will be hard but there's a better than 50% chance that they can be stopped. They need the Pro-12 clubs to sell this as a truly European league. I don't see us as being necessarily financially disadvantaged if they do get their rugby circus up and running.

As to the "amazing" high quality we can expect in this new paradise- well the current fare on offer from the two rich men's leagues is a sobering reminder than more money does not always- or even often led to higher quality. If you want to go to look at another sport- the Premiership is undoubtedly the richest league in the world- but the standard is... meh!

[Flash Gordon]

From a fan point of view games week in week out vs Leicester, Toulouse, Toulon, Saracens, ASM would be an amazing prospect for both supporters and players.

I really have difficulty with this argument - I think familiarity breeds contempt and it wouldn't be too long before the thrill wore off - as it already has to a large extent when dealing with clubs with great histories like Llanelli and Cardiff. We'd be giving out about French clubs not trying away from home, and how big money clubs like Saracens and Bath are spoiling the competition.

Presumably you'd be happy to throw one, or possibly two, of the Irish provinces under a bus as well. Where are they going to play if there is no Pro12? You would possibly need a second and possibly third division and I'm not sure that the big boys would want to spread the money around that much.

Wanderers have a rich history, its not relevant now though is it? The competitions that are doing best in world rugby like the RWC, the European Cup and the Super 15 are the all recent innovations.

I never said that there should be no Pro-12 but it could be a tier 2 or qualifying competition - well, let's be honest, its developing that way anyway, we see our second string out more often than not in league games for Leinster. Attendances across the league are down, sponsorship values have been dropping and our TV rights are in a different stratosphere to Top 14 and the English premiership.

With regard to French teams not trying. Well, we've had plenty of teams coming to the RDS and not trying in the Pro 12 but if the likes of Toulon and Toulouse capitulate away week in week out Saracens, Leinster, Leicester etc won't and if that happens Saracens, Leicester and Leinster will win competitions and the other teams won't - which will force a rethink on their part.

Personally, whatever we as fans discuss here and what we think, this will happen anyway and in my opinion if we don't lead we will be left behind because that's exactly what happened with the formation of the Champions Cup - we should have started the European reform conversation when we were kings of Europe but because we didn't we ended being bitch slapped into submission - and that will happen again.

I think we need to negotiate a move to a European league with fairplay rules on salary personally and if we don't in 2 years time Leinster will be the Wanderers of European rugby.

[Dexter]

The first problem with this is that it was suggested by Boudjellal...

[Flash Gordon]

The first problem with this is that it was suggested by Boudjellal...

Well yes, there is that but in this case I think he might be onto something.

[simonokeeffe]

The first problem with this is that it was suggested by Boudjellal...

Well yes, there is that but in this case I think he might be onto something.

only way I see it working involves 6 nations going home & away and scrapping at least one of the test windows

[Toulon fan]

More details on his concept:

European Pro A League (20 clubs)

• Pool A
  French club
  French club
  French club
  English club
  English club
  English club
  Pro12 club
  Pro12 club
  Pro12 club
  Guest

• Pool B
  French club
  French club
  French club
  English club
  English club
  English club
  Pro12 club
  Pro12 club
  Pro12 club
  Guest

Home and away games =18 games.
Quater finals with the 4 best of both pools ; Playoffs = 3 games.
Total 21 games.

European Pro B League
dedicated to the clubs who're not qualified for the A League, same as the Challenge Cup.



World Cup of Clubs (8 clubs)

• Pool A
  European Semi-finalist
  European Semi-finalist
  Super Rugby Semi-finalist
  Super Rugby Semi-finalist

• Pool B
  European Semi-finalist
  European Semi-finalist
  Super Rugby Semi-finalist
  Super Rugby Semi-finalist

3 games + 2 play-offs
= 5 games

French domestic Top 10 or 12
The regular season is played between 10 or 12 clubs, without the best 6 french clubs playing the European League
Final first at the regular table is promoted to European League and takes the place of the european 6th french club.
Maybe the 2nd could play versus the european 5th french club.

The final 4 of the domestic Top 10/12 meets the 4 french european bests in domestic quater final.
Like that, the 8 best french teams are represented in play-offs and the Brennus Shield remain a valuable title.

= 3 play-off games



Conclusion: 21 european games + 5 World cup games + 3 domestic play-offs games

• * = 29 games max. per season (instead of 38 currently for the french clubs) for the sole team that could play all competitions in a row and race for 3 titles in a season.
  * All european calendar problems solved. More weekends available for national team camps, games and rest.
  * TV rights should increase, because there are less games in a season, but all 3 competitions are much more attractive.

[Oldschool]

More details on his concept:

European Pro A League (20 clubs)

• Pool A
  French club
  French club
  French club
  English club
  English club
  English club
  Pro12 club
  Pro12 club
  Pro12 club
  Guest

• Pool B
  French club
  French club
  French club
  English club
  English club
  English club
  Pro12 club
  Pro12 club
  Pro12 club
  Guest

Home and away games =18 games.
Quater finals with the 4 best of both pools ; Playoffs = 3 games.
Total 21 games.

European Pro B League
dedicated to the clubs who're not qualified for the A League, same as the Challenge Cup.



World Cup of Clubs (8 clubs)

• Pool A
  European Semi-finalist
  European Semi-finalist
  Super Rugby Semi-finalist
  Super Rugby Semi-finalist

• Pool B
  European Semi-finalist
  European Semi-finalist
  Super Rugby Semi-finalist
  Super Rugby Semi-finalist

3 games + 2 play-offs
= 5 games

French domestic Top 10 or 12
The regular season is played between 10 or 12 clubs, without the best 6 french clubs playing the European League
Final first at the regular table is promoted to European League and takes the place of the european 6th french club.
Maybe the 2nd could play versus the european 5th french club.

The final 4 of the domestic Top 10/12 meets the 4 french european bests in domestic quater final.
Like that, the 8 best french teams are represented in play-offs and the Brennus Shield remain a valuable title.

= 3 play-off games



Conclusion: 21 european games + 5 World cup games + 3 domestic play-offs games

• * = 29 games max. per season (instead of 38 currently for the french clubs) for the sole team that could play all competitions in a row and race for 3 titles in a season.
  * All european calendar problems solved. More weekends available for national team camps, games and rest.
  * TV rights should increase, because there are less games in a season, but all 3 competitions are much more attractive.

Bottom line another pop at reducing the representation of the Pro12.
The guests will be SA and over time the number of guests will increase and the number of Pro12 will decrease.
It's all about the money a franchise can bring to the table. So ultimately two Pro12 teams. Likely to be two of Cardiff, Glasgow, Leinster and Ulster based primarily on the population centres they represent.

[nc6000]

Why don't people just embrace the Pro12?

Because it isn't very good and it's getting worse each season.

How come for example the England players were back starting for their clubs last weekend but the Irish ones weren't? The IRFU have made it pretty clear that resting their internationals after the Six Nations comes ahead of any league matches their teams play in.

[ribs]

The excitement around the current European competition is already dead, so something new is needed.