Munster 2016-2017

[FLIP]

Never bought into the POM hype. Angry face, too hot headed to be an international captain, not anywhere near as good as his competition in all back row positions.

[wixfjord]

Never bought into the POM hype. Angry face, too hot headed to be an international captain, not anywhere near as good as his competition in all back row positions.

Funny, if you 'FLIP' the words 'POM' for 'Heaslip' and 'Angry face' for 'Show pony' then this is a Munsterfans post.
Same same, but different.

[FLIP]

Never bought into the POM hype. Angry face, too hot headed to be an international captain, not anywhere near as good as his competition in all back row positions.

Funny, if you 'FLIP' the words 'POM' for 'Heaslip' and 'Angry face' for 'Show pony' then this is a Munsterfans post.
Same same, but different.

And if I flip your last sentence to "not just different, but completely different", you'd be right. Heaslip is a born winner, and keeps on winning, and isn't all that hot headed bar one incident. There's plenty of evidence to that, whereas the "evidence" to how good POM is isn't medals and statistics, but media teams of the weeks and clueless journos hyping him up.

[offshorerules]

I always think that people who refer to POM as Angry Face have got him mixed up with Donnacha Ryan. Just saying like, Donnacha looks very very cross don't you think?

[jimbobjoe]

I always think that people who refer to POM as Angry Face have got him mixed up with Donnacha Ryan. Just saying like, Donnacha looks very very cross don't you think?

That's just how his face happens to look I think! With POM it's the scrunched up red face he puts on when there's a bit of handbags.. it's not fooling anyone.

[Dave Cahill]

I'd totally disagree with that, and the faster the game the more he's suited to it, which is the way the game is going and the way we tried to play in SA.

Not surprisingly perhaps, I'd say the complete opposite, when the game gets faster he finds it harder and harder until he loses the run of himself and does something dumb

[wixfjord]

Never bought into the POM hype. Angry face, too hot headed to be an international captain, not anywhere near as good as his competition in all back row positions.

Funny, if you 'FLIP' the words 'POM' for 'Heaslip' and 'Angry face' for 'Show pony' then this is a Munsterfans post.
Same same, but different.

And if I flip your last sentence to "not just different, but completely different", you'd be right. Heaslip is a born winner, and keeps on winning, and isn't all that hot headed bar one incident. There's plenty of evidence to that, whereas the "evidence" to how good POM is isn't medals and statistics, but media teams of the weeks and clueless journos hyping him up.

Ah yes, as we all know medals and statistics are the prime indicators of how good a players is.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I'd totally disagree with that, and the faster the game the more he's suited to it, which is the way the game is going and the way we tried to play in SA.

Not surprisingly perhaps, I'd say the complete opposite, when the game gets faster he finds it harder and harder until he loses the run of himself and does something dumb

Just off the top of my head I thought he was brilliant against NZ in 2013, Wales and Scotland in 2015, and then France at the WC. All very quick games.

Edit: Can;t think of any times he did something dumb but perhaps you can enlighten me.

[Dave Cahill]

Ah yes, as we all know medals and statistics are the prime indicators of how good a players is.

The presence of them is a better indicator than the lack of them. Otherwise you're just dealing in truthiness.

[Dave Cahill]

Just off the top of my head I thought he was brilliant against NZ in 2013, Wales and Scotland in 2015, and then France at the WC. All very quick games.

Edit: Can;t think of any times he did something dumb but perhaps you can enlighten me.

Those games pretty much illustrate what I was saying, in those games and those seasons criticisms were often levelled at POM about his tackle count being low, or about not making carries - accurate in terms of the pure numbers perhaps, but in terms of the match that was okay because he was playing a strictly defined role and doing precisely what he was supposed to be doing. He caught the eye for the amount of turnovers he was making,for example, or how many times he was securing ruck ball when we were in possession - how often he took lineout ball. Its actually a really hard thing to do for a rugby player, to deliberately not make a tackle, it takes real discipline because you know your role isn't to make that tackle, its to get on the ball as quickly as possible and win it ideally or at least paint a picture for the referee of a contest for the ball in which you are being unfairly denied. Thats a massive thing and I had huge respect for him in that role.

But in Munsters last but one European campaign he was a really poor in the middle three matches where they basically fell out of the competition with the merest of whimpers. He was poor in 2 and a half of those games and did a lot of really silly stuff.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Such as?

[Peg Leg]

I always think that people who refer to POM as Angry Face have got him mixed up with Donnacha Ryan. Just saying like, Donnacha looks very very cross don't you think?

You mean Skeletor?

[wixfjord]

Ah yes, as we all know medals and statistics are the prime indicators of how good a players is.

The presence of them is a better indicator than the lack of them. Otherwise you're just dealing in truthiness.

They certainly are.

Both can also be irrelevant or misleading though, as I'm sure you're aware Dave. In fact, you pretty much support the stats point above.

[Dave Cahill]

Absolutely - stats in and of themselves are no use whatsoever. Medals too in isolation - Aurelian, Djimi and Ian prove that point.

But the other side is that on a holistic view of the game, a guy who is a stat monster and has a whole bunch of medals and has been picked for a whole bunch of teams from club to supranational - it all adds up and then you add in the 'visceral' side of things....

But just saying a guy is a liigind without any quantifiable way of backing it up, except for MOTM awards, cuts considerably less mustard. Without the 'mathematical' the 'visceral' is entirely subjective.

[wixfjord]

Absolutely - stats in and of themselves are no use whatsoever. Medals too in isolation - Aurelian, Djimi and Ian prove that point.

But the other side is that on a holistic view of the game, a guy who is a stat monster and has a whole bunch of medals and has been picked for a whole bunch of teams from club to supranational - it all adds up and then you add in the 'visceral' side of things....

But just saying a guy is a liigind without any quantifiable way of backing it up, except for MOTM awards, cuts considerably less mustard. Without the 'mathematical' the 'visceral' is entirely subjective.

You've a gra for 'strawman argument' I believe Dave?

[Dave Cahill]

I'm not sure what you mean?

[wixfjord]

I'm not sure what you mean?

Twisting a discussion to respond to a point that another opponent isn't actually making.

[Dave Cahill]

I'm not sure what you mean?

Twisting a discussion to respond to a point that another opponent isn't actually making.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean? You made the point that medals do not maketh the man, I developed it - is that what you're talking about?

[wixfjord]

I'm not sure what you mean?

Twisting a discussion to respond to a point that another opponent isn't actually making.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean? You made the point that medals do not maketh the man, I developed it - is that what you're talking about?

I'm not measuring Heaslip to POM, nor am I denigrating Heaslip. I'm actually a huge fan of the latter also.
Neither is anyone 'just saying a guy is a liigind without any quantifiable way of backing it up, except for MOTM awards'.

[Dave Cahill]

I'm not measuring Heaslip to POM, nor am I denigrating Heaslip. I'm actually a huge fan of the latter also.
Neither is anyone 'just saying a guy is a liigind without any quantifiable way of backing it up, except for MOTM awards'.

No, and I don't think you are, but others have in the past. Its why its a joke-thing here, like Axel Foley winning a poll or the IRFU writing off Munsters debt. Sooner or later some southern goober will put it forward as a reason why billy mcmunster should be in the Irish team - hasn't he won all those MOTM awards.

I think if Ireland continue to play the way they have under Schmidt in the championship then I would have POM starting without any question. If Ireland are going to develop the way they played against SA during the summer, then I wouldn't have him starting - I think there are players better suited to that game.

I wouldn't have him as captain though. I don't say that because he hasn't been a successful captain at Munster in terms of lifting trophies. That wouldn't be a fair standard, Munster are in a trough at the moment, so comparing him to Foley or O'Connell isn't right. I wouldn't have him as captain because under his captaincy Munster have often looked disinterested, ill-disciplined and rudderless on the pitch. I simply don't think he has led his team particularly well.