Munster 2016-2017

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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Not_Today » June 30th, 2016, 9:01 pm

Strange Munster haven't snapped up Betts, Browne to a lesser degree
Last edited by Not_Today on June 30th, 2016, 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 30th, 2016, 9:28 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:Munster are signing 23 year old lock Jean Kleyn from the Stormers (think hes leaving after Super Rugby not Currie Cup).
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Makes it look less likely Chisholm is coming back

Chapeau to Michael Corcoran on twitter, its included in list of Saffers leaving this season

@Kerm yeah I cant see a best runner up coming out of that pool


That's an extraordinary approval by the IRFU, given that its been rumoured internationally for 12 months that Leinster were seeking to sign a profile NIQ, or at least a high-class Project 2nd row. A further indication that Nucifora is exhibiting anti-Leinster bias (also rumoured they have been refused permission to sign another identified NIQ, who was within their quota). What other logic can be offered?
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby COYBIB » July 1st, 2016, 2:49 pm

Munster have signed Jean Kleyn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Kleyn) in the second row. Seems worries about Chlisoms future haven't improved.

22, big unit, seems to be of a very similar profile to the standard of player, age and experience that we signed in Quinn Roux. A reasonable punt by all accounts, they've been unlucky with some of their recent punts, only Stander really coming through and delivering thus far... they'll need a better strike rate than that to start removing more water from the ship than what's coming in.

If Chlisom is sticking around for another year, potentially this is a bad sign for Munster, because that would mean all 4 NIQ spots are occupied and I do not like the look of their tight head options.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby leinsterforever » July 1st, 2016, 5:00 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:Munster are signing 23 year old lock Jean Kleyn from the Stormers (think hes leaving after Super Rugby not Currie Cup).
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Makes it look less likely Chisholm is coming back

Chapeau to Michael Corcoran on twitter, its included in list of Saffers leaving this season

@Kerm yeah I cant see a best runner up coming out of that pool


That's an extraordinary approval by the IRFU, given that its been rumoured internationally for 12 months that Leinster were seeking to sign a profile NIQ, or at least a high-class Project 2nd row. A further indication that Nucifora is exhibiting anti-Leinster bias (also rumoured they have been refused permission to sign another identified NIQ, who was within their quota). What other logic can be offered?


If Bleyendaal's injury problems were to persist, and Chisholm was forced to retire, then Munster would effectively be left with Saili as their only viable NIQ if they didn't sign this second row. The signing of Kleyn is hardly "extraordinary". Don't know where you're getting this anti-Leinster bias stuff from.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby simonokeeffe » July 1st, 2016, 5:24 pm

think its were the only province that reached the boiling point in terms of talent bottlenecks etc, I'm sure if Ulster or Munster had 4 Irish international tightheads or 7 Irish international backrowers there'd also be issues

TB (if fit) may well benefit the most from a new coach/more 2nd 5/8 friendly regime
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby ribs » July 1st, 2016, 8:46 pm

Exactly, second row and scrumhalf (and to a lesser extent hooker) are the only positions we can really argue we need signings, and now it looks like Munster have tied one of those positions up.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Peg Leg » July 1st, 2016, 9:19 pm

ribs wrote:Exactly, second row and scrumhalf (and to a lesser extent hooker) are the only positions we can really argue we need signings, and now it looks like Munster have tied one of those positions up.

Wha? We need a center more than anything Shirley?
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Ruckedtobits » July 2nd, 2016, 9:40 am

We now need cover, or star, in 10 / 12 / 13, as only Ringrose and Reid regularly available, with Byrne or Marsh or Carbury as starting 10 for approx. 12 games, assuming no injuries to JS.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby COYBIB » July 2nd, 2016, 1:52 pm

Imagine throwing Carbery in at 10 for a European game after Johnny pulls something in the warm up, and he goes on to have a stormer. Sometimes these are the gambles you have to take. Many a player has announced himself by stepping up in a time of crisis. I don't mind throwing young fellas in if it means we get to keep them first and foremost, but second of all, to give more opportunities and earlier, I think it's crucial we start exposing these players sooner and identifying the top level talents after getting an opportunity to show it.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Dave Cahill » July 2nd, 2016, 2:26 pm

COYBIB wrote:Imagine throwing Carbery in at 10 for a European game after Johnny pulls something in the warm up, and he goes on to have a stormer. Sometimes these are the gambles you have to take. Many a player has announced himself by stepping up in a time of crisis. I don't mind throwing young fellas in if it means we get to keep them first and foremost, but second of all, to give more opportunities and earlier, I think it's crucial we start exposing these players sooner and identifying the top level talents after getting an opportunity to show it.



How did that work out for Marsh against Wasps last season?
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby leinsterforever » July 2nd, 2016, 3:57 pm

COYBIB wrote:Imagine throwing Carbery in at 10 for a European game after Johnny pulls something in the warm up, and he goes on to have a stormer. Sometimes these are the gambles you have to take. Many a player has announced himself by stepping up in a time of crisis. I don't mind throwing young fellas in if it means we get to keep them first and foremost, but second of all, to give more opportunities and earlier, I think it's crucial we start exposing these players sooner and identifying the top level talents after getting an opportunity to show it.


I agree with that. The situation is not ideal but I think the best approach is to bite the bullet and pick the inexperienced players. It's probably the only option anyway
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Oldschoolsocks » July 2nd, 2016, 9:19 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
COYBIB wrote:Imagine throwing Carbery in at 10 for a European game after Johnny pulls something in the warm up, and he goes on to have a stormer. Sometimes these are the gambles you have to take. Many a player has announced himself by stepping up in a time of crisis. I don't mind throwing young fellas in if it means we get to keep them first and foremost, but second of all, to give more opportunities and earlier, I think it's crucial we start exposing these players sooner and identifying the top level talents after getting an opportunity to show it.



How did that work out for Marsh against Wasps last season?


Quite the opposite of what happened when Jonny had to replace Dr. Phil v Munster that time.

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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby FLIP » July 2nd, 2016, 10:12 pm

Oldschoolsocks wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
COYBIB wrote:Imagine throwing Carbery in at 10 for a European game after Johnny pulls something in the warm up, and he goes on to have a stormer. Sometimes these are the gambles you have to take. Many a player has announced himself by stepping up in a time of crisis. I don't mind throwing young fellas in if it means we get to keep them first and foremost, but second of all, to give more opportunities and earlier, I think it's crucial we start exposing these players sooner and identifying the top level talents after getting an opportunity to show it.



How did that work out for Marsh against Wasps last season?


Quite the opposite of what happened when Jonny had to replace Dr. Phil v Munster that time.

Thing about picking cherries is they tend not to be consistent


Sexton had been pushing for selection at the time. Marsh hasn't pushed at all.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Dave Cahill » July 2nd, 2016, 10:19 pm

Oldschoolsocks wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
COYBIB wrote:Imagine throwing Carbery in at 10 for a European game after Johnny pulls something in the warm up, and he goes on to have a stormer. Sometimes these are the gambles you have to take. Many a player has announced himself by stepping up in a time of crisis. I don't mind throwing young fellas in if it means we get to keep them first and foremost, but second of all, to give more opportunities and earlier, I think it's crucial we start exposing these players sooner and identifying the top level talents after getting an opportunity to show it.



How did that work out for Marsh against Wasps last season?


Quite the opposite of what happened when Jonny had to replace Dr. Phil v Munster that time.

Thing about picking cherries is they tend not to be consistent


If Leinster had brought on Ian McKinley that day, then you might have a point, but a guy with over 30 Leinster caps at that point including Ireland A, European and Interpro starts?
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Oldschoolsocks » July 3rd, 2016, 9:08 am

Oldschoolsocks wrote:
COYBIB wrote:Imagine throwing Carbery in at 10 for a European game after Johnny pulls something in the warm up, and he goes on to have a stormer. Sometimes these are the gambles you have to take. Many a player has announced himself by stepping up in a time of crisis. I don't mind throwing young fellas in if it means we get to keep them first and foremost, but second of all, to give more opportunities and earlier, I think it's crucial we start exposing these players sooner and identifying the top level talents after getting an opportunity to show it.


Dave Cahill wrote:How did that work out for Marsh against Wasps last season?


Quite the opposite of what happened when Jonny had to replace Dr. Phil v Munster that time.

Thing about picking cherries is they tend not to be consistent

Dave Cahill wrote:If Leinster had brought on Ian McKinley that day, then you might have a point, but a guy with over 30 Leinster caps at that point including Ireland A, European and Interpro starts?

potatoes, potatoes - Leinster brought on whoever was available - it worked out spectacularly for Jonny v Munster that day - it didn't work out for Marsh v Wasps

just for me, when was Marsh going to win his Ireland A caps?
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Dave Cahill » July 3rd, 2016, 10:22 am

When he was good enough

But again, there is a grain of truth in what you say. Both coaches used what was available to them.

Good coaches ensure that they have proper replacements available, that they don't have key positions backed up by inexperienced players though (and that they have their mobile phones switched off in Coventry). Cheika or Schmidt wouldn't go into a big game with a Cathal Marsh next to nor near the bench if they could in any way help it
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Oldschoolsocks » July 3rd, 2016, 11:29 am

Dave Cahill wrote:When he was good enough

But again, there is a grain of truth in what you say. Both coaches used what was available to them.

Good coaches ensure that they have proper replacements available, that they don't have key positions backed up by inexperienced players though (and that they have their mobile phones switched off in Coventry). Cheika or Schmidt wouldn't go into a big game with a Cathal Marsh next to nor near the bench if they could in any way help it


OK,

so which Ireland A fixture would Cathal Marsh have been good enough to have been given an Ireland A cap in?

no, that's unfair - how about I list the Ireland A matches during the time when Johnny Sexton won his 11 Ireland A caps:
    9 February 2007: Ireland A 5–32 England Saxons
    19 May 2007: Ireland A 39–20 Canada
    29 May 2007: Ireland A 22-50 New Zealand Māori
    2 June 2007: Ireland A 22–21 Scotland A
    1 February 2008: England Saxons 31–13 Ireland A
    22 February 2008: Scotland A 67–7 Ireland A
    11 June 2008: Ireland A 46-9 USA
    14 June 2008: England Saxons 34–12 Ireland A
    21 June 2008: Argentina A 8-33 Ireland A
    6 February 2009: Ireland A P-P England Saxons
    13 February 2009: Ireland A 35-10 Scotland A
    10 June 2009: Canada XV 19–30 Ireland A
    14 June 2009: Ireland A 40-5 Georgia
    21 June 2009: England Saxons 22-49 Ireland A
    13 November 2009: Ireland A 48–19 Tonga XV
    27 November 2009: Ireland A 31–0 Argentina Jaguars
Now I'll list the Ireland A fixtures since Cathal Marsh first played for the senior 15 in September 2015

so - maybe absence of opportunity might have some bearing here?


* source = wikipedia
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Dave Cahill » July 3rd, 2016, 12:26 pm

Oldschoolsocks wrote:so which Ireland A fixture would Cathal Marsh have been good enough to have been given an Ireland A cap in?



Well for a start, he didn't first play for the Senior 15 in September '15, it was back in 2013, against one of the Italian sides if memory serves.

So, since then there have been a couple of Wolfhounds games, a Nations cup tournament and a Tblisi cup tournament(the latter two are actually below 'A' level admittedly) since then, the answer is 'none of them'.

But still none of this obfuscates the fact that a good coach would never go into any kind of big game with a key position being covered by such a callow player.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Oldschoolsocks » July 3rd, 2016, 1:08 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Oldschoolsocks wrote:so which Ireland A fixture would Cathal Marsh have been good enough to have been given an Ireland A cap in?



Well for a start, he didn't first play for the Senior 15 in September '15, it was back in 2013, against one of the Italian sides if memory serves.

So, since then there have been a couple of Wolfhounds games, a Nations cup tournament and a Tblisi cup tournament(the latter two are actually below 'A' level admittedly) since then, the answer is 'none of them'.

But still none of this obfuscates the fact that a good coach would never go into any kind of big game with a key position being covered by such a callow player.

Grand job so, the red herring of Ireland A caps is off the table.

I'm now in a position to agree that a better organisation would not be relying on such an inexperienced player for big European matches, but you've gotta play the hand you're dealt as best you can. We do still need to blood these players and let them make their mistakes if needs be. I'm even willing to roll back on my feelings on Noel Reid and see how he can pan out at 12 with Henshaw or Rinrose outside him, cause ffs the turgid cr@p being served up right now is not realy stirring my loins.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby simonokeeffe » July 3rd, 2016, 1:27 pm

Munster thread? I thought this was the line for Metalica
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