David Nucifora - Ongoing

[dropkick]

The system is designed to prevent it due to separation of decision making but Munster just have too much influence. The furore over Leinsters selection for the Thomond game brought back just how much influence rests with the people who only watch a few select games. Seasonal and long term considerations can be damned, the provincial game is really just there for a few big days out between internationals.

It simply looks like a restructuring of Munster by Nucifora. We heard at the end of last season that Nucifora was going to sort out the mess in Munster himself and basically get Munster to copy the Connacht model of bringing through more young players. Rassie said the other day that over the next 2 or 3 years the squad is going to be trimmed down. http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugb ... 37361.html


What we're seeing now is Munster in the process of revamping the squad. Yes there are a load of NIQs but as someone who has supported lowering the number of NIQs, its nothing to be angry about. As an analogy, its like tidying a house. If you tidy a house, sometimes during the tidying the house looks worse than it was because there are items everywhere but thats only temporary. Once done the house will be in order.

I don't buy that at all. You don't 'bring through' young players [i.e. select them for games] by bloating the squad with NIQ players on short-term contracts and not selecting said young players. That's patently nonsense.

Munster have two former Irish U20 tightheads in Year 3 of their academy: Brian Scott [23] who started in the academy four years ago, and missed a whole year [2014/15] due to a neck injury; and Rory Burke [22] who is repeating his Year 3 due to a run of injuries in previous years. Both of these lads have essentially spent four years in the Munster Academy environment.

Scott has played 29 mins over four games this season, Burke hasn't played a single minute. Why do they need to bring in du Toit [younger than either of them] as a tighthead on a short-term deal? Why don't they give Scott more than the 29 mins he has played, or give Burke a chance? Leinster have played four props younger than Burke – the younger of the two, the guy who hasn't played a minute – this season: Dooley, Heffernan [A], Loughman [A] and Porter [A]. Why can't Burke, a guy who started 9 of the 10 U20 internationals in 2014, get a single minute of Pro12 rugby?

Erasmus wants to get wins under his belt because that's the head coach's job: to get wins. Once you're winning, everything is much easier. I don't blame Erasmus for wanting to keep Taute; Taute makes Munster a better team.

In general teams Munster fans have, over the last four or five years, proved that they're no better or worse than other fans when it comes to supporting their side – they can raise a decent crowd for a big match, but they don't show up in anything like the same numbers if they're not winning. The lack of attendance was hurting the province and hurting the IRFU's bank balance. Now that things are going well, Nucifora doesn't want to stick a spoke in the wheel for the sake of 'fairness' – people are coming back to Thomond, money is coming back in and it's going back to the IRFU. That's hardly a conspiracy theory, and figuring it out isn't rocket surgery.

I'm not disagreeing with your last sentence but its more than that. Its mainly about making Munster become more self sufficient in churning out more IQ players for Ireland. If it was simply money the IRFU would leave all the provinces sign more NIQs and keep the likes of Pienaar. It was said at the end of last season that after Munster failed to pay their debt on time the IRFU / Nucifora had redrawn up the agreement and part of that was Nucifora being allowed make changes in Munster. So it was flagged last season that changes would be happening this season with Erasmus charged with revamping the squad. The NIQs signed are mostly injury cover and most of the NIQs will be gone next season.


Regarding the props, maybe Rassie had already agreed to bring in du Toit before he arrived and assessed the squad. He probably knew very little about the squad and looking at the videos last season the scrum was bad. That was the big worry in the summer. Then Archer got injured again so I'd say he was on the phone to du Toit fairly early in the season.


Scott actually looked impressive in his 29 minutes. He won a few scrum penalties in that time so I remember thinking to myself that I'd like to see him get some more time on the pitch instead of a few minutes at the end of each game to see what he is like. But with du Toit signed they had to use him. The age doesn't really matter either especially with props. They mature at different rates. Scott and especially Burke had a few injuries.


The Leinster props you named are getting game time alright but Leinster have a lot more depth at prop than Munster. Ross is injured but for big games they've Furlong and Bent (who is a very good player). They've Healy, McGrath and Dooley on the loosehead side. In the same scenario, for a big match, if Munster lost Ryan they'd be down to Archer and the academy lads. If they lost Cronin or Kilcoyne it would be McCabe or the academy lads. McCabe was injured too this season. So you're not comparing like with like.

Burke and Scott are getting cut. du Toit was an extended trial like Taute and Lloyd, dressed up as short term deals.

I doubt that. As I said above, Scott looked surprisingly good in his brief appearances in the scrum. He is a big man and at 6'5 is very tall for a prop but if he can become a decent scrummager he will be signed up. He can play both sides of the scrum also. Burke has been riddled with injuries but looks a good player.


Taute and Lloyd are on trial alright. Taute will be a long term signing it looks like and on less than half of Saili's wage. A good bit of business by Erasmus that.

[ormond lad]

It simply looks like a restructuring of Munster by Nucifora. We heard at the end of last season that Nucifora was going to sort out the mess in Munster himself and basically get Munster to copy the Connacht model of bringing through more young players. Rassie said the other day that over the next 2 or 3 years the squad is going to be trimmed down. http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugb ... 37361.html

What we're seeing now is Munster in the process of revamping the squad. Yes there are a load of NIQs but as someone who has supported lowering the number of NIQs, its nothing to be angry about. As an analogy, its like tidying a house. If you tidy a house, sometimes during the tidying the house looks worse than it was because there are items everywhere but thats only temporary. Once done the house will be in order.

I don't buy that at all. You don't 'bring through' young players [i.e. select them for games] by bloating the squad with NIQ players on short-term contracts and not selecting said young players. That's patently nonsense.

Munster have two former Irish U20 tightheads in Year 3 of their academy: Brian Scott [23] who started in the academy four years ago, and missed a whole year [2014/15] due to a neck injury; and Rory Burke [22] who is repeating his Year 3 due to a run of injuries in previous years. Both of these lads have essentially spent four years in the Munster Academy environment.

Scott has played 29 mins over four games this season, Burke hasn't played a single minute. Why do they need to bring in du Toit [younger than either of them] as a tighthead on a short-term deal? Why don't they give Scott more than the 29 mins he has played, or give Burke a chance? Leinster have played four props younger than Burke – the younger of the two, the guy who hasn't played a minute – this season: Dooley, Heffernan [A], Loughman [A] and Porter [A]. Why can't Burke, a guy who started 9 of the 10 U20 internationals in 2014, get a single minute of Pro12 rugby?

Erasmus wants to get wins under his belt because that's the head coach's job: to get wins. Once you're winning, everything is much easier. I don't blame Erasmus for wanting to keep Taute; Taute makes Munster a better team.

In general teams Munster fans have, over the last four or five years, proved that they're no better or worse than other fans when it comes to supporting their side – they can raise a decent crowd for a big match, but they don't show up in anything like the same numbers if they're not winning. The lack of attendance was hurting the province and hurting the IRFU's bank balance. Now that things are going well, Nucifora doesn't want to stick a spoke in the wheel for the sake of 'fairness' – people are coming back to Thomond, money is coming back in and it's going back to the IRFU. That's hardly a conspiracy theory, and figuring it out isn't rocket surgery.

I'm not disagreeing with your last sentence but its more than that. Its mainly about making Munster become more self sufficient in churning out more IQ players for Ireland. If it was simply money the IRFU would leave all the provinces sign more NIQs and keep the likes of Pienaar. It was said at the end of last season that after Munster failed to pay their debt on time the IRFU / Nucifora had redrawn up the agreement and part of that was Nucifora being allowed make changes in Munster. So it was flagged last season that changes would be happening this season with Erasmus charged with revamping the squad. The NIQs signed are mostly injury cover and most of the NIQs will be gone next season.

Regarding the props, maybe Rassie had already agreed to bring in du Toit before he arrived and assessed the squad. He probably knew very little about the squad and looking at the videos last season the scrum was bad. That was the big worry in the summer. Then Archer got injured again so I'd say he was on the phone to du Toit fairly early in the season.

Scott actually looked impressive in his 29 minutes. He won a few scrum penalties in that time so I remember thinking to myself that I'd like to see him get some more time on the pitch instead of a few minutes at the end of each game to see what he is like. But with du Toit signed they had to use him. The age doesn't really matter either especially with props. They mature at different rates. Scott and especially Burke had a few injuries.

The Leinster props you named are getting game time alright but Leinster have a lot more depth at prop than Munster. Ross is injured but for big games they've Furlong and Bent (who is a very good player). They've Healy, McGrath and Dooley on the loosehead side. In the same scenario, for a big match, if Munster lost Ryan they'd be down to Archer and the academy lads. If they lost Cronin or Kilcoyne it would be McCabe or the academy lads. McCabe was injured too this season. So you're not comparing like with like.

That isnt a good enough argument Dropkick. Yes Leinster have greater depth but that doesnt mean Munster should have to sign someone in. We hear so much about how great some young guys are yet we dont see them early enough in many cases.
Scott looked impressive so Du Toit wasnt needed. Age does matter with props. Scott and Burke have had injuries so when fit them getting games is even more important so they can get development they will have missed so much of while out with long term injuries.

[Laighin Break]

Scott actually looked impressive in his 29 minutes. He won a few scrum penalties in that time so I remember thinking to myself that I'd like to see him get some more time on the pitch instead of a few minutes at the end of each game to see what he is like. But with du Toit signed they had to use him. The age doesn't really matter either especially with props. They mature at different rates. Scott and especially Burke had a few injuries.


The Leinster props you named are getting game time alright but Leinster have a lot more depth at prop than Munster. Ross is injured but for big games they've Furlong and Bent (who is a very good player). They've Healy, McGrath and Dooley on the loosehead side. In the same scenario, for a big match, if Munster lost Ryan they'd be down to Archer and the academy lads. If they lost Cronin or Kilcoyne it would be McCabe or the academy lads. McCabe was injured too this season. So you're not comparing like with like.[/b]

Surely even with du Toit signed, Munster can still use their academy props. Maybe not in every game, but for more than 29 minutes, as mentioned previously. Leinster have 'more depth' at prop because they gradually give the academy guys exposure to playing at senior level.
How is comparing [McGrath - Healy - Dooley (who graduated from the academy last year) - Leinster academy props] to [ Cronin - Kilcoyne - McCabe - Munster academy props] not comparing like with like?

[Peg Leg]

@Dropkick, the theory there is fine, but does nothing to redress the fact that this season (possibly next), its Munster spend short for a longer gain. Leinster, Ulster and Connacht tighten your belts and up the your academy output to cover Munsters national team deficit.

[Dexter]

Essentially the IRFU policy towards the provinces is to reward failure.

[dropkick]

@ Ormond Lad
I'd prefer to see Scott playing but as I said, signing du Toit was a decision that might have been taken a while before he arrived and Munster had John Ryan and an injured Archer as tightheads. Andress was injured too as far as I remember.

@ Peg leg
Munster are not a drain on the IRFU finances. If I remember correctly the IRFU have a reserve of €60m or €70m so a €9m loan to Munster isn't going to have any effect unless they are going to spend all their money. The money would be sitting in a bank anyway. Plus I'm sure the IRFU are getting some kind of interest out of it.

@ Laighin Break
Because Leinster have more depth at prop. Munsters second choice tighthead is Archer. Leinsters is Mike Ross.
As I said above, I'd prefer to see Scott or Burke playing than du Toit but another prop was needed.

@ Dexter
Its not rewarding failure at all. More like a kick start. Ulster got that a few years back and nobody was complaining. The failure in Munster was having a weak academy for so long. They've rectified that over the years but it takes time for academy lads to transition to first team.


Something people should keep in mind when it comes to Nucifora and the IRFU is most of the changes they make have long term goals in mind. Fans think short term, the IRFU thinks long term. People look at 8 NIQs in Munster while I'm looking at the 3 that'll be there next season and potential players in signings Chris Farrell, Hart and Hanrahan along with Scott, Burke, Goggin, Johnston, Fitzgerald and possibly Greg O'Shea and Oliver promoted from the academy. 10 Irish players listed there.

[Dave Cahill]

9.

[Peg Leg]

@dropkick deficit a bad choice of words, but it was used in reference to Munsters supply of resources to the national team.

[johng]

[ronk]

Leinster lost Moore to Wasps, had Ross injured and Furlong heavily relied on for Ireland.

We had our injury problems last year too. Leinster worked really really hard to produce props and give them gametime but lost one of the most important players produced for years in Moore. Munster got to sign a decent young foreign player first sign of problems.

The history pattern is similar. Mike Ross got 1 sub appearance for Munster before being cut by Kidney and almost lost to the game (he was lucky to get a trial at Quins) at a time when Munsters lack of prop development was starting to go terminal.

No one is complaining about any of the long term planning visible in Munster. It's that all the resources now are being diverted to their short term success.

9 NIQ players, many on short term deals don't fit into a narrative of long term planning. At best it's win now, something something, something something, success later. Especially obvious when viewed against heavy recruitment of qualified players too.

[ronk]

The Munster website still lists A caps and not senior caps for academy players.

Mentality is still to see capping academy players as an aberration or run out against Italians.

[ribs]

So did irfu make any changes at the board level in Munster? Or is it still amateur hour there?

[Ruckedtobits]

@ Ormond Lad
I'd prefer to see Scott playing but as I said, signing du Toit was a decision that might have been taken a while before he arrived and Munster had John Ryan and an injured Archer as tightheads. Andress was injured too as far as I remember.

@ Peg leg
Munster are not a drain on the IRFU finances. If I remember correctly the IRFU have a reserve of €60m or €70m so a €9m loan to Munster isn't going to have any effect unless they are going to spend all their money. The money would be sitting in a bank anyway. Plus I'm sure the IRFU are getting some kind of interest out of it.

@ Laighin Break
Because Leinster have more depth at prop. Munsters second choice tighthead is Archer. Leinsters is Mike Ross.
As I said above, I'd prefer to see Scott or Burke playing than du Toit but another prop was needed.

@ Dexter
Its not rewarding failure at all. More like a kick start. Ulster got that a few years back and nobody was complaining. The failure in Munster was having a weak academy for so long. They've rectified that over the years but it takes time for academy lads to transition to first team.


Something people should keep in mind when it comes to Nucifora and the IRFU is most of the changes they make have long term goals in mind. Fans think short term, the IRFU thinks long term. People look at 8 NIQs in Munster while I'm looking at the 3 that'll be there next season and potential players in signings Chris Farrell, Hart and Hanrahan along with Scott, Burke, Goggin, Johnston, Fitzgerald and possibly Greg O'Shea and Oliver promoted from the academy. 10 Irish players listed there.

Nonsense about IRFU financial position. They are still repaying Aviva debt and postponed or reduced the sale of tranches of 10 year tickets twice in last three seasons. Munster current budget is rumoured at - €2.5M with no capital repayments on TP debt for past three years. Big year of 10 year ticket sales in 2018-9 but need success to get that away, particularly Leinster supporters who will buy 80% of 5k i.e 4k of prime tickets @ c. 15-18k each.

So IRFU not sitting on cash pile and Sterling exchange rate hurting (6N income) compared to past 5 years.

[Oldschool]

Watched a 98 min TnaG highlights programme including ads.
Just on 44mins for the absolutely shyte Leicester v Munster game. Over 25 mins for the Connacht v Wasps game a far more entertaining game and about the same for the Leinster v Northampton.
That's it there in a nutshell and yet it's the Leinster money that foots the lions (pun intended) share of the TV licence.
The Munster game was worthy of about 15 to 20 mins at best.
Nocifora needs to turn up the heat on the national broadcaster too and point out to them that we're trying to sell a product and we'd appreciate more coverage of the better quality games.
If TnaG is trying to foster and grow the Irish language it needs to realise it's biggest market is Leinster and adjust it's broadcasting strategy accordingly.
Another f^cking failing quango.

[Laighin Break]

Watched a 98 min TnaG highlights programme including ads.
Just on 44mins for the absolutely shyte Leicester v Munster game. Over 25 mins for the Connacht v Wasps game a far more entertaining game and about the same for the Leinster v Northampton.
That's it there in a nutshell and yet it's the Leinster money that foots the lions (pun intended) share of the TV licence.
The Munster game was worthy of about 15 to 20 mins at best.
Nocifora needs to turn up the heat on the national broadcaster too and point out to them that we're trying to sell a product and we'd appreciate more coverage of the better quality games.
If TnaG is trying to foster and grow the Irish language it needs to realise it's biggest market is Leinster and adjust it's broadcasting strategy accordingly.
Another f^cking failing quango.

Their bias towards Munster is always apparent. They've also had a good few former Munster front rowers pitchside, who seem not to be bothered speaking/learning the language.

[Dave Cahill]

Leinster people don't watch the Tg4 highlights in the main, we aren't their market. Leinster people prefer to watch their rugby on Sky and BT Sport. TG4 aren't dumb (quite the reverse in fact, they're probably the smartest channel on the island) and aren't going to waste screen time on a team that isn't the main interest of the majority of their viewers. The east coast, with its multichannel framework and high-speed broadband network is not TG4 terrirtory

[offshorerules]

I do.

[wixfjord]

Ah lads. This place is becoming more and more like Munsterfans. Paranoia reigns.

[offshorerules]

Change of subject. Not sure what to make of this.
http://www.the42.ie/pat-lam-mitch-lam-c ... 9-Jan2017/

[blockhead]

Ah lads. This place is becoming more and more like Munsterfans. Paranoia reigns.

+1, a lot of whining creeping in to this forum lately.
Mammy and Daddy are giving more attention to little michael at the moment because hes been a bit sick of late. It dosen't mean that they don't love you too.

I watch TG4 rugby if there is no alternative. I also tune in for the TG4 weather reports, damm those girls are fine.