Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

[fourthirtythree]

Heaslip has been a regular for his province since 2006 and for his country since 2008 in which time he has played 328 first class games. He is so reliable and injury free that when he does get an injury people are so incapable of dealing with it that they have to make up conspiracy theories to explain it.

It's amazing how the bottom half of the internet is full of Heaslip Truthers at the moment! "I heard a report one time from somewhere that doesn't match up the way he's having an operation now so obviously they are making the whole thing up". It's brilliant. And sad.

As for attribution of quotes, which you also mentioned, the habitual allowing of "sources" to remain unnamed while pushing their agenda in Irish journalism is really very poor. Sources should be allowed to be unnamed for reasons of personal protection. Insider sources should not as a rule be allowed to be unnamed, whether they be "government sources", "sources close to the minister", or "sources in the IRFU" or "sources close to the player". Who? If you are not prepared to put your name to it, why not? If it is the agent pushing their agenda, fine that's their right, it should not be printed unless they are prepared to go on the record though. It's bad ethics and practice.

[paddyor]

. The more time passes the more I'd expect him to stay, it's funny how the initial reports say things like signed/inked etc and then become less certain as the days go by. Although I thought the same about Marty.

This seems to be a special kind of contract akin to the US comics system, it's been pencilled, then inked, next it's off to the colorist and the letterer, and in a new development this one is sea-going as it needs to be copper bottomed also "it is understood that he has yet to completely copper-fasten his move." http://www.the42.ie/munster-rassie-eras ... 7-Mar2017/

Until Munster announce it's over, it's not over. I'd prefer him to stay here, but Munster should be able to come up with the cash to do that given the NIQ second rows they are paying for. In terms of how bad for Ireland it's worse than Moore leaving but incomparably better than when we lost Sexton which was an unmitigated clusterfuckingomnishambles.

Yeah, cut Chisholm and Sailli and jobs a good un. Theres yourextra few quid there. I think there is something in the number of NIQs they have.

[johng]

I don't read Munsterfans has anyone down there brought up the "why have we so many niq's and we are letting ryan go" angle.

Instead of the "why is Jamie Heaslip soo unbearably cool for a rugby player" angle

[paddyor]

I don't read Munsterfans has anyone down there brought up the "why have we so many niq's and we are letting ryan go" angle.

Instead of the "why is Jamie Heaslip soo unbearably cool for a rugby player" angle

Well I've been "trawling" the thread (following it) and no they haven't. They've thrown themselves head first into tinfoil hat production.

[paddyor]

For me, linking the Heaslip and Ryan cases, is to show how unfair the system is.

But it doesn't show that at all. All it shows is that the system has some actuarial foresight

Heaslip has been a regular for his province since 2006 and for his country since 2008 in which time he has played 328 first class games. He is so reliable and injury free that when he does get an injury people are so incapable of dealing with it that they have to make up conspiracy theories to explain it.

Over that roughly same period of time Ryan has 207 first class games and has been quite unfortunate with injury. He missed the AIs last autumn, has had two knee injuries and a foot injury that led to him missing, in total, almost two seasons worth of action.

There simply is no comparison between the two. And that is where 'supporters' of Ryan erred and let their true colours show. They picked completely the wrong player to play whatabout with. If they had hung on to see if, say, SOB - a player with a not dissimilar injury profile - gets a new Central Contract then they might have a point should it be renewed (even though at the point of renewal he will be younger than both Heaslip and Ryan are now). That wouldn't suit the agenda though.

THey'd have been just as wrong re SOB. He's played 3281 test minutes to Ryans 2152 with nearly the same amount of caps. I'd imagine a break down of minutes for SOB show he's a player worth a good deal more to Ireland than Leinster. As in a higher % of his minutes played are with Ireland.

[wixfjord]

Am I missing something here? So Ryan is currently on a central contract worth 300K as far as we know?
And he has been offered a provincial contract worth 300k by Munster, along with a higher, longer contract by Metro.

Surely this is just a case of him deciding to go for a payday, which he rightly deserves?
What's the relevance of the central contract except prestige if it's the same value as a provincial contract?
As John G said, if Munster weren't in such dire financial straits and didn't have as many NIQs to pay couldn't they choose to top up the provincial contract?

[munster#1]

Based on some of the comments on here, (and I say some, as I am fully aware that this does not represent the whole) some posters/fans do not believe that like Heaslip, Ryan deserves a contract.
Should a contract be based around ability, minutes played, ceiling, age? probably a combination of these and more.
Are Ryan's contributions so low that he does not deserve a contract? well that for me is the issue worth discussing.

The comparison with Heaslip ends with their age, which is what I used. If age is the reason, then the irfu need a kick up the hole.

All are very entitled to have, and express their opinion.
Imo Ryan was one of the most important players for Ireland during the last 6 nations, and even in the autumn series victory of the all blacks.

Imo Ryan is well worth another 2 year deal, and his absence will be felt. But only time will tell.

[wixfjord]

Based on some of the comments on here, (and I say some, as I am fully aware that this does not represent the whole) some posters/fans do not believe that like Heaslip, Ryan deserves a contract.
Should a contract be based around ability, minutes played, ceiling, age? probably a combination of these and more.
Are Ryan's contributions so low that he does not deserve a contract? well that for me is the issue worth discussing.

The comparison with Heaslip ends with their age, which is what I used. If age is the reason, then the irfu need a kick up the hole.

All are very entitled to have, and express their opinion.
Imo Ryan was one of the most important players for Ireland during the last 6 nations, and even in the autumn series victory of the all blacks.

Imo Ryan is well worth another 2 year deal, and his absence will be felt. But only time will tell.

I think you're purposely conflating 'explaining why he isn't being offered a contract' with 'not believing that he should be offered a contract'.

[paddyor]

Based on some of the comments on here, (and I say some, as I am fully aware that this does not represent the whole) some posters/fans do not believe that like Heaslip, Ryan deserves a contract.
Should a contract be based around ability, minutes played, ceiling, age? probably a combination of these and more.
Are Ryan's contributions so low that he does not deserve a contract? well that for me is the issue worth discussing.

The comparison with Heaslip ends with their age, which is what I used. If age is the reason, then the irfu need a kick up the hole.

All are very entitled to have, and express their opinion.
Imo Ryan was one of the most important players for Ireland during the last 6 nations, and even in the autumn series victory of the all blacks.

Imo Ryan is well worth another 2 year deal, and his absence will be felt. But only time will tell.

Thanks for the caveat, it looked a lot like you were tarring a lot of people with the one brush there without actually providing any evidence.

Within reason, no one has any objection to him getting a contract. It's the Heaslip comparison and claims of bias that are being rubbished. Whether he is on a central contract or not is immaterial as he'll still be available to Ireland.

[Dexter]

The 300k figure could be max theoretical case eg Munster win the double and he plays 25 or 30 games

MK reporting a pre contract has been signed but also he had talked to IRFU about leaving a year early so perhaps the overseas experience was always something he really wanted

So you're saying it may not be a D4 conspiracy after all?? Come on now....

[Laighin Break]

Central contracts were originally based on a player guaranteed to start - is that still the case? Heaslip is absolutely guaranteed to start, nearest competitor is Stander who fits in fine at 6 or possibly as backrow cover in future, and then Conan who needs to break fully into Leinster team first.
I'm guessing Schmidt and Nucifora don't see Heaslip being usurped for the no. 8 jersey in the coming 2/3 years.

Whereas Ryan isn't guaranteed to start (although deserved all of his starts in the 6N) and I'm assuming they see Ryan losing his starting place (probably to Hendy or Dillane) soon.

Are central contracts ever 1 year, or always more?

[Peg Leg]

Based on some of the comments on here, (and I say some, as I am fully aware that this does not represent the whole) some posters/fans do not believe that like Heaslip, Ryan deserves a contract.
Should a contract be based around ability, minutes played, ceiling, age? probably a combination of these and more.
Are Ryan's contributions so low that he does not deserve a contract? well that for me is the issue worth discussing.

The comparison with Heaslip ends with their age, which is what I used. If age is the reason, then the irfu need a kick up the hole.

All are very entitled to have, and express their opinion.
Imo Ryan was one of the most important players for Ireland during the last 6 nations, and even in the autumn series victory of the all blacks.

Imo Ryan is well worth another 2 year deal, and his absence will be felt. But only time will tell.

For Munster, yes he is. They should be doing everything in their power to hold onto him.

[simonokeeffe]

Central contracts were originally based on a player guaranteed to start - is that still the case? Heaslip is absolutely guaranteed to start, nearest competitor is Stander who fits in fine at 6 or possibly as backrow cover in future, and then Conan who needs to break fully into Leinster team first.
I'm guessing Schmidt and Nucifora don't see Heaslip being usurped for the no. 8 jersey in the coming 2/3 years.

Whereas Ryan isn't guaranteed to start (although deserved all of his starts in the 6N) and I'm assuming they see Ryan losing his starting place (probably to Hendy or Dillane) soon.

Are central contracts ever 1 year, or always more?

there were 25 at one point but then union cut cloth to measure economic downturn etc
Tom Court left once his was up

@wjxford worth up to is key eg look at soccer transfer fees, always reported as worth up to

The 300k figure could be max theoretical case eg Munster win the double and he plays 25 or 30 games

MK reporting a pre contract has been signed but also he had talked to IRFU about leaving a year early so perhaps the overseas experience was always something he really wanted

So you're saying it may not be a D4 conspiracy after all?? Come on now....

I know Im breaking the narrative
BUT that shouldve been a sign, whether this was a consideration or not, that he wasnt going to stay at all costs to make RWC

[Oldschool]

I'm not usually one for the D4 conspiracies, but it's clear something is arse ways if this comes to pass. David and Joe live in Dublin and you'd be naive to think they're not influenced by the personalities that they're surrounded by on a daily basis. 

Having a committee of amateurs decide these things wasn't right, but those currently deciding them should be answerable to some form of group that is representative of rugby across the entire Island.

Theyre really working themselves into a frenzy down there. You can see why they had 2 training bases for so long.

What can you say to that?

Nucifora is Australian and Schmidt's a New Zealander, but they're biased against Munster and you're naive if you don't believe it. Their Dublin neighbours obviously convinced them not to offer Donnacha Ryan a big contract.

The amateur committee system was bad, but we need an amateur committee system so the full time professionals don't make decisions I disagree with.

This is hysterical stuff, and I don't mean hysterically funny.

Think you might be on to something there.
IMHO Joe is a NZer.
Munster beat NZ.
As we saw last autumn hell hath no fury like a NZ team beaten.
So Joe is probably doing a bit of payback.

[rooster]

Central contracts were originally based on a player guaranteed to start - is that still the case? Heaslip is absolutely guaranteed to start, nearest competitor is Stander who fits in fine at 6 or possibly as backrow cover in future, and then Conan who needs to break fully into Leinster team first.
I'm guessing Schmidt and Nucifora don't see Heaslip being usurped for the no. 8 jersey in the coming 2/3 years.

Whereas Ryan isn't guaranteed to start (although deserved all of his starts in the 6N) and I'm assuming they see Ryan losing his starting place (probably to Hendy or Dillane) soon.

Are central contracts ever 1 year, or always more?

there were 25 at one point but then union cut cloth to measure economic downturn etc
Tom Court left once his was up

@wjxford worth up to is key eg look at soccer transfer fees, always reported as worth up to

The 300k figure could be max theoretical case eg Munster win the double and he plays 25 or 30 games

MK reporting a pre contract has been signed but also he had talked to IRFU about leaving a year early so perhaps the overseas experience was always something he really wanted

So you're saying it may not be a D4 conspiracy after all?? Come on now....

I know Im breaking the narrative
BUT that shouldve been a sign, whether this was a consideration or not, that he wasnt going to stay at all costs to make RWC

Tom Court left because Humphreys wouldn't offer him a new Ulster contract despite him wanting to stay with Ulster, yes his central contract was over but that was not a factor in him going.

[simonokeeffe]

@Rooster huh, guess Court won that propoganda war so

Will be very interesting to hear what Ryan has to say when an announcement is made
Am trying to think of options if they have to go down the IQ route for a replacement

[BlueStreak]

@Rooster huh, guess Court won that propoganda war so

Will be very interesting to hear what Ryan has to say when an announcement is made
Am trying to think of options if they have to go down the IQ route for a replacement

Tadgh Beirne would be the first name that springs to mind. Not sure what his contract situation is with Scarlets though.

[Golf Man]

Just to note that other people getting central contracts has an effect on other players ability to get one - there are only so many to around. Also the contract will be impacted by a players previous performance but has to be based on their likely impact going forward - doc for example iirc had his for too long.

There is absolutely an argument that Ryan shouldn't get one (dillane and Henderson will obviously be pushing for one) but that is where the heaslip comparison is apt (and the unedifying heaslip bashing/praising is embarassing) - will heaslip be starting at 8 in 2019 - where does that leave stander and conan?. The answer for Ryan and heaslip isn't necessarily the same (although I probably wouldn't have given either of them) .

If this comes to pass (and it's far more advanced than any other agent waffle we've seen before) then it's a huge huge loss for munster. No way of replacing him within the squad can't see us and don't want us with another niq and no one iq available who is worth a damp. Does increase chance of dillane coming back the year after though I suppose

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[CiaranIrl]

Am I missing something here? So Ryan is currently on a central contract worth 300K as far as we know?
And he has been offered a provincial contract worth 300k by Munster, along with a higher, longer contract by Metro.

Surely this is just a case of him deciding to go for a payday, which he rightly deserves?
What's the relevance of the central contract except prestige if it's the same value as a provincial contract?
As John G said, if Munster weren't in such dire financial straits and didn't have as many NIQs to pay couldn't they choose to top up the provincial contract?

You're absolutely on the money here, as it were. But I'm glad nobody is stopping to the 'Mercenary' insults that were levelled at Sexton by some of here.

[blaker]

Ideally he'd stay, he's a loss to both green and red.
However
IRFU/Munster stood by him and gave a central contract through a very prolonged injury
He has looked to move before and has played the agent/foreign card before when negotiating
He's not gotten a central contract but has hardly been offer a stipend amount at Munster
He's leaving to end his career elsewhere when, arguably, he has a rep and bargaining weight at the highest it's been
I think - and absolute fair due to him - the guy is going when the going is good but that Mun/Ire could argue that "loyalty" works both ways