Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

[Edna Kenny]

The Times reporting today that "four or five private backers have been helping the province purchase above what would have been their means" in relation to the recent foreign signings.

If there's private money topping up salaries of foreign players, why not do the same with Ryan to keep him at Munster on a provincial contract?

[blockhead]

As Munster#1 said recently, "Munster are the IRFU's favourite team". Ryan must be of a mind to leave no matter what.

[Peg Leg]

ROG said he approached Ryan as the IRFU doesn't appreciate/underates experience which is valued in France.

Rassie put it fairly strongly that it was a Nucifora/Schmidt decision as Rassie pointed out that they have every right to make it as they are going to carry the can for making it.
http://www.the42.ie/donnacha-ryan-munst ... 4-Mar2017/

What's stopping Rassie from making Ryan an offer that values his experience?

According to Rassie:

“He’s served Munster well and I guess at his age he’s got one big contract left in him. We made the best offer we could, which was for two years. He didn’t get a national contract again so it was tough for us to afford him and when the likes of Racing and those guys make you offers it’s really big money which we can’t compete with.

Perhaps Munster had not budgeted for him losing his international contract (300K is a lot to find).

Ah gotcha, there is nothing stopping Munster from offering him the contract his experience deserves.

EDIT just reread my reply there and it reads like I'm a smarmy cnut. Not a go at you Jmac but at Munster and the ever willing medias creation of this epic emotional corporate tug of war drama and poor Ryan the innocent at the centre of it all.

[Ruckedtobits]

Neither Midi Olympic nor L'Equipe have confirmed this deal as yet. Laporte is making many comments (as FFR President) about the aborted amalgamation, the composition of League Squads, the primacy of the National team and the overall opportunities for French amateur players within the game.

Compared to other years, there is very little commentary or rumours about overseas players in the media at present. French rugby is looking more French in media coverage at present

Only problem being that Midol confirmed it days ago.

Don't think so @DaveCahill. All they wrote was confirming the rumour that he was offered a Contract by Racing92. They never actually confirmed that the Contract had been completed.

[Peg Leg]

Oh and wrt ROG and his statement regarding coaches in Ireland not valuing experience, that is utter tosh. If anything they place an emphasis on experience at the expense of talent. See ROG, J Hayes, Bowe, Boss, Tiquiri etc

[Golf Man]

Pretty sure it wasn't confirmed - the talk was that there was a pre-contract signing and that the deadline for that to go live was approaching in the next week or so. Wouldn't be surpised if thats why it was being openly addressed in the media by Munster - trying to attract the balance that they need to secure him, if he wants to stay. I don't really buy the fact that Ryan wants to move - what I took as read from Rassies comments was that if the central contract was there, he was staying

It does show up the failings of the system (in so far as we know about it) - limited numbers of central contracts to be spread around the differing positions have the potential to result in the contracts not being available to players who need/deserve them because of timing. Backrow is a prime example here - SOB and Heaslip are on central contracts until 2019, POM until 2018. Stander is provincial until 2018. Will they have 4 central contracts with backrows or do you risk losing POM or Stander (very hard to see this)

There does appear to be a need for a third contract for the in betweens, unless they increase the number of centrals. If IRFU topped up what Munster offered Ryan by €100K/year we could probably keep him which is surely win /win

[paddyor]

Oh and wrt ROG and his statement regarding coaches in Ireland not valuing experience, that is utter tosh. If anything they place an emphasis on experience at the expense of talent. See ROG, J Hayes, Bowe, Boss, Tiquiri etc

It's pretty bizarre.

[Golf Man]

Oh and wrt ROG and his statement regarding coaches in Ireland not valuing experience, that is utter tosh. If anything they place an emphasis on experience at the expense of talent. See ROG, J Hayes, Bowe, Boss, Tiquiri etc

Strange post and kind of missing his point I think

1. Valuing experience - I think he meant it that in France they tend to look at players as having longer spanning careers. A 36 year old lock would be on no concern in France whereas it would be here - the contracts given to NIQs over 30 would support this
2. I read it that they value, ie pay for experience
3.I also think that the particular issue with Ryan is that Henderson and Dillane are the young options behind him - the French would be as likely to value the experience as the potential in that situation, IRFU seem to have gone the other way - its these debateable contracts/.decision that he is talking about - ROG and Bowe were absolute value for the investment at the time of their last contract (there is an arguement just like Heaslip and Ryan that we shouldn't be giving central contracts easily to players who will be 35/36 at the end of those contracts). Hayes was pretty much the same player right through his career - not sure what talent he stopped

[Golf Man]

Oh and wrt ROG and his statement regarding coaches in Ireland not valuing experience, that is utter tosh. If anything they place an emphasis on experience at the expense of talent. See ROG, J Hayes, Bowe, Boss, Tiquiri etc

It's pretty bizarre.

Saying that the value experience more in France than in Ireland ain't exactly groundbreaking - there's a reason a lot of guys head there towards the end of their careers

[Peg Leg]

The provinces do not undervalue experience. They are perhaps more prudent in their contract duration.
I wish the national team were too.

[simonokeeffe]

Oh and wrt ROG and his statement regarding coaches in Ireland not valuing experience, that is utter tosh. If anything they place an emphasis on experience at the expense of talent. See ROG, J Hayes, Bowe, Boss, Tiquiri etc

It's pretty bizarre.

its also easier to have 2 veteran locks like Williams & Botha when you have 3 or 4 in the squad you can rotate, 6-2 bench splits, and play in a slower paced league

[paddyor]

Oh and wrt ROG and his statement regarding coaches in Ireland not valuing experience, that is utter tosh. If anything they place an emphasis on experience at the expense of talent. See ROG, J Hayes, Bowe, Boss, Tiquiri etc

It's pretty bizarre.

Saying that the value experience more in France than in Ireland ain't exactly groundbreaking - there's a reason a lot of guys head there towards the end of their careers

No it's bizarre. Off the top of my head

POC played and captained Munster until he retired (he never made it to Toulon).
Cullen played and captained Leinster until he retired
Muller played and captained Ulster until he retired

There's a whole host of players who played international rugby for Ireland their province until they retired.
BOD
ROG
Humprhies (though he was semi retired from international)
Reddan
Boss
Wallace

And there's a couple of players who played past 35
Hayes
Ross
Swift

Against that I can think of 2 players deemed surplus to requirements who went abroad to keep earning
DOC
Stringer

Roger Wilson went the other way.

Even at Leinster, look at some of the players we've signed over the past ten years
Nasewa
Triggs
Fardy
Tuquiri
Kirchner
Goodman
Berquist
Beirne
Thorn

This isn't a new thing in Irish rugby. Mike Gibson played until he was 36. It's a claim that doesn't stack up at all.

[janeymac08]

@paddyor
Most of those you mention were fairly well tied to Ireland because of their tax back situation. I remember everyone being amazed that Peter Stringer headed off (he obviously knew what was going to happen).

There was no one to replace John Hayes up to the time he retired. Remember Bent being parachuted in at one stage. POC, ROG & BOD were key players.

DOC is still going strong - he was Worchester's Player of the Year last year and I think he won man of the match last week at the age of 38.
James Coughlan is another one who seems to has been an ever present for Pau since he moved there 3 years ago.

The IRFU effectively told Ryan he was out of their international plans which is basically saying close the door on your way out - which is absolutely crazy bearing in mind the time he has on the clock and like John Hayes, was a late starter.

[wixfjord]

The IRFU effectively told Ryan he was out of their international plans which is basically saying close the door on your way out

Now they did not do that.

[janeymac08]

The IRFU effectively told Ryan he was out of their international plans which is basically saying close the door on your way out

Now they did not do that.

If he was in the IRFU's plans, they would have offered him a central contract (which Munster could have topped up).

One of the main selling points to keep people in Ireland is the carrot of international rugby. Once DOC lost his international contract, they didn't call him up again.

[wixfjord]

If he was in the IRFU's plans, they would have offered him a central contract (which Munster could have topped up).

One of the main selling points to keep people in Ireland is the carrot of international rugby.

Not offering a central contract does not mean that he's 'out of the IRFU's international plans'.

Once DOC lost his international contract, they didn't call him up again.

I think you're confusing correlation and causation there

[paddyor]

@paddyor
Most of those you mention were fairly well tied to Ireland because of their tax back situation. I remember everyone being amazed that Peter Stringer headed off (he obviously knew what was going to happen).

There was no one to replace John Hayes up to the time he retired. Remember Bent being parachuted in at one stage. POC, ROG & BOD were key players.

DOC is still going strong - he was Worchester's Player of the Year last year and I think he won man of the match last week at the age of 38.
James Coughlan is another one who seems to has been an ever present for Pau since he moved there 3 years ago.

The IRFU effectively told Ryan he was out of their international plans which is basically saying close the door on your way out - which is absolutely crazy bearing in mind the time he has on the clock and like John Hayes, was a late starter.

Stringer had already played in Ireland for 10 years and even though he went abroad it was initially on loan so he was always likely to retire in Ireland if he felt like it. Things changed and now he doesn't have to. He's become a journey man, fair play to him. He got usurped by TOL and then Murray and decided to move on instead of being 3rd choice SH.

Part of there "keyness" was there experience. ROG wasn't a key player for Ireland in his final season. IN hindsight, should ROG have been picked to bench against Argentina in 2012? BOD didn't offer the same attacking threat in his final season either but he brought other things, like experience. Hayes was well past it when he retired. There were alternatives.

I very much doubt DOC was MOTM. He was subbed around 60 minutes when his team were losing 31-19. Fair play to him, but I'd like to think there's a bit of a difference between playing for an Irish province and a relegation battling AP team. He got pushed down the pecking order at Munster by Foley and Ryan, decided to move on.

Forgot about Coughlan. He left for the payday really didn't he? Once Stander came in he was always been 8 ball in terms of contract negotiation. There wasn't space for him at any of the other provinces.

No he's not comparable to Hayes.

Early Life

He went to school at Nenagh CBS and played all his underage rugby with Nenagh Ormond, representing Munster and Irish Youths, before moving to St Munchin's College in Limerick, where he was a key member of the side that won the Munster Schools Rugby Senior Cup in 2002.

and

Shannon

Ryan is a member of Shannon RFC, who play in All-Ireland League. He won an AIL league medal with Shannon in the 2005–06 season. Ryan moved to Shannon following a successful period at Nenagh Ormond, where he learnt his trade.

and

Munster

Ryan made his debut for Munster against Ospreys on 3 September 2004, during a Celtic League fixture.[1] He made his Heineken Cup debut against Llanelli Scarlets on 16 December 2007.[2] He played for Munster in their 2007–08 Heineken Cup semi-final against Saracens,[3] and was on the bench for the 2008 Heineken Cup Final against Stade Toulousain, which Munster won 16–13.[4]

So he's played Rugby his whole life and actually made his senior debut before Heaslip. Hayes on the other hand took up rugby while he was working abroad in NZ IIRC. They're not comparable at all

[Golf Man]

If he was in the IRFU's plans, they would have offered him a central contract (which Munster could have topped up).

One of the main selling points to keep people in Ireland is the carrot of international rugby.

Not offering a central contract does not mean that he's 'out of the IRFU's international plans'.

Once DOC lost his international contract, they didn't call him up again.

I think you're confusing correlation and causation there

I'm fairness it's not just that he didn't get one it's that he lost one - not exactly a show of faith given his age and position. It has to have been fairly obvious that Ryan would be a major candidate to move if he didn't get a central contract . They've obviously made a call that with toner dillane Henderson Holland and roux that we are OK until 2019 - hope they are right


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[Golf Man]

@paddyor
Most of those you mention were fairly well tied to Ireland because of their tax back situation. I remember everyone being amazed that Peter Stringer headed off (he obviously knew what was going to happen).

There was no one to replace John Hayes up to the time he retired. Remember Bent being parachuted in at one stage. POC, ROG & BOD were key players.

DOC is still going strong - he was Worchester's Player of the Year last year and I think he won man of the match last week at the age of 38.
James Coughlan is another one who seems to has been an ever present for Pau since he moved there 3 years ago.

The IRFU effectively told Ryan he was out of their international plans which is basically saying close the door on your way out - which is absolutely crazy bearing in mind the time he has on the clock and like John Hayes, was a late starter.

Stringer had already played in Ireland for 10 years and even though he went abroad it was initially on loan so he was always likely to retire in Ireland if he felt like it. Things changed and now he doesn't have to. He's become a journey man, fair play to him. He got usurped by TOL and then Murray and decided to move on instead of being 3rd choice SH.

Part of there "keyness" was there experience. ROG wasn't a key player for Ireland in his final season. IN hindsight, should ROG have been picked to bench against Argentina in 2012? BOD didn't offer the same attacking threat in his final season either but he brought other things, like experience. Hayes was well past it when he retired. There were alternatives.

I very much doubt DOC was MOTM. He was subbed around 60 minutes when his team were losing 31-19. Fair play to him, but I'd like to think there's a bit of a difference between playing for an Irish province and a relegation battling AP team. He got pushed down the pecking order at Munster by Foley and Ryan, decided to move on.

Forgot about Coughlan. He left for the payday really didn't he? Once Stander came in he was always been 8 ball in terms of contract negotiation. There wasn't space for him at any of the other provinces.

No he's not comparable to Hayes.

Early Life

He went to school at Nenagh CBS and played all his underage rugby with Nenagh Ormond, representing Munster and Irish Youths, before moving to St Munchin's College in Limerick, where he was a key member of the side that won the Munster Schools Rugby Senior Cup in 2002.

and

Shannon

Ryan is a member of Shannon RFC, who play in All-Ireland League. He won an AIL league medal with Shannon in the 2005–06 season. Ryan moved to Shannon following a successful period at Nenagh Ormond, where he learnt his trade.

and

Munster

Ryan made his debut for Munster against Ospreys on 3 September 2004, during a Celtic League fixture.[1] He made his Heineken Cup debut against Llanelli Scarlets on 16 December 2007.[2] He played for Munster in their 2007–08 Heineken Cup semi-final against Saracens,[3] and was on the bench for the 2008 Heineken Cup Final against Stade Toulousain, which Munster won 16–13.[4]

So he's played Rugby his whole life and actually made his senior debut before Heaslip. Hayes on the other hand took up rugby while he was working abroad in NZ IIRC. They're not comparable at all

Pretty obvious what he meant and it's relevant (his injury history is also relevant) .

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[Peg Leg]

Lads Ross not been picked in the autumn internationals 2010 was a farce at the time. There was an alternative to Hayes.
Regarding CC's I think they should be used for a player's peak period and not as a support to a province (in which case no Heaslip would not get one), but they should make moves to take player's in contract, into the cc fold. That way they would be contracting the beat player's at their peak regardless of their provincial contractual situation.