Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Forum for the discussion of other Teams and Clubs as well as General Rugby chat.

Moderator: moderators

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby Golf Man » April 5th, 2017, 12:05 pm

paddyor wrote:
Golf Man wrote:....
What it does bring to light is the limitations of central contracts, and the problems that can arise from investing too much in the wrong player - I don't agree with Heaslips contract for example, and Bowe afaik has a contract through to June 2018 which is mad to think about now.

No It doesn't. That's an entirely separate issue that's been tagged on to this saga by people with an agenda.


So a player who is currently first choice in a position of limited depth (most limited?) leaves because he didn't get a central contract - yet this is entirely seperate from limitations/issues around aforementioned central contracts => there is no logic to your statement

There are a limited number of central contracts, and more players looking for them than contracts available. These limitations can only mean that players who feel they deserve central contracts will not always get them - obviously opens up the possibility of a Ryan type scenario - particularly when its a "last" contract - to suggest there is no link and is agenda driven is naive at best
Golf Man
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: November 2nd, 2010, 2:00 pm

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby Cor. Ind. » April 5th, 2017, 12:16 pm

*** Edited by Mod ***
"Only in America!"

Yogi Berra - on learning the Lord Mayor of Dublin was a Jew.
User avatar
Cor. Ind.
Learner
 
Posts: 93
Joined: March 14th, 2017, 12:39 am

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby Golf Man » April 5th, 2017, 12:37 pm

Peg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?


Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offer
Golf Man
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: November 2nd, 2010, 2:00 pm

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby blockhead » April 5th, 2017, 12:45 pm

Golf Man wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?


Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offer


...wanted to play for Leinster.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
User avatar
blockhead
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3615
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 2:20 pm
Location: Bastardstown, Co. Wexford

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby Peg Leg » April 5th, 2017, 1:24 pm

Golf Man wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?


Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offer

I thought the money gap wasn't huge and it was the duration that sealed the deal?
"It was Mrs O'Leary's cow"
Daniel Sullivan
User avatar
Peg Leg
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 7827
Joined: February 1st, 2010, 6:08 pm
Location: Procrastinasia

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby Golf Man » April 5th, 2017, 1:59 pm

Peg Leg wrote:
Golf Man wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?


Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offer

I thought the money gap wasn't huge and it was the duration that sealed the deal?


The figures like the rest of the noise around this story have varied - First report was that Racing were offering €300K, subsequently reported that Munster were offering a deal up to €300K and that Racings offer was in excess of €400K. All of these seem to be based around 2 year deals although Rassie did say

"We offered him a two-year deal but I understand he has got a much better deal from Racing 92. I guess in the next few days we’ll understand where he stands. Obviously he would be a great loss to us. He’s one of our stalwarts, really a Munster man. It will be sad.We must really understand it’s a professional game. In three years time when he retires nobody is going to say it’s a shame he stayed at Munster a year longer, but then financially is not as well off. We can only say good luck and all the best."

It may be 3 years in that case (and guaranteed 1.2m v guaranteed 500/550K is a big big difference

The take away for me when you wade though the speculation (all factors to varying degrees) is that if an enhanced central contract was on the table he would have stayed
Golf Man
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: November 2nd, 2010, 2:00 pm

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby paddyor » April 5th, 2017, 2:50 pm

Golf Man wrote:
paddyor wrote:
Golf Man wrote:....
What it does bring to light is the limitations of central contracts, and the problems that can arise from investing too much in the wrong player - I don't agree with Heaslips contract for example, and Bowe afaik has a contract through to June 2018 which is mad to think about now.

No It doesn't. That's an entirely separate issue that's been tagged on to this saga by people with an agenda.


So a player who is currently first choice in a position of limited depth (most limited?) leaves because he didn't get a central contract - yet this is entirely seperate from limitations/issues around aforementioned central contracts => there is no logic to your statement

There are a limited number of central contracts, and more players looking for them than contracts available. These limitations can only mean that players who feel they deserve central contracts will not always get them - obviously opens up the possibility of a Ryan type scenario - particularly when its a "last" contract - to suggest there is no link and is agenda driven is naive at best

Says you. He wanted out last year when he was already on a central and was refused. Which renders the gobbledegook in the 2nd part of your statement irrelevant.

When did these limits come in? IIRC at one point there were upwards of 20 central contracts and that's no been reduced down to a figure of circa 15. It's all at the unions discretion like for e.g. no private money funding contracts. To say Ryan didn't get a central contract becuase computer says no seems well wide of the mark here.

There are limititations to central contracts but the Ryan saga doesn't highlight them. Things like Bowe being kept on past his prime while there are younger players who probably could do a better job do. Nothing to do with Ryan at all.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: November 17th, 2012, 12:48 am

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby paddyor » April 5th, 2017, 2:53 pm

Golf Man wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?


Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offer

I think ROGs claim about valuing experience has been well and truly debunked. Who is there?
Stringer
DOC
Coughlan
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: November 17th, 2012, 12:48 am

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby Golf Man » April 5th, 2017, 3:31 pm

paddyor wrote:
paddyor wrote:
Golf Man wrote:....
What it does bring to light is the limitations of central contracts, and the problems that can arise from investing too much in the wrong player - I don't agree with Heaslips contract for example, and Bowe afaik has a contract through to June 2018 which is mad to think about now.

No It doesn't. That's an entirely separate issue that's been tagged on to this saga by people with an agenda.



There are a limited number of central contracts, and more players looking for them than contracts available. These limitations can only mean that players who feel they deserve central contracts will not always get them - obviously opens up the possibility of a Ryan type scenario - particularly when its a "last" contract - to suggest there is no link and is agenda driven is naive at best

Says you. He wanted out last year when he was already on a central and was refused. Which renders the gobbledegook in the 2nd part of your statement irrelevant.

When did these limits come in? IIRC at one point there were upwards of 20 central contracts and that's no been reduced down to a figure of circa 15. It's all at the unions discretion like for e.g. no private money funding contracts. To say Ryan didn't get a central contract becuase computer says no seems well wide of the mark here.

There are limititations to central contracts but the Ryan saga doesn't highlight them. Things like Bowe being kept on past his prime while there are younger players who probably could do a better job do. Nothing to do with Ryan at all.[/quot

He wanted out last year when he was already on a central and was refused. - Evidence for this? - your opinion on this seems to be based on speculation and journalists stories - bit rich to be claiming other people have an agenda when you are taking all of this as gospel

To say Ryan didn't get a central contract because computer says no seems well wide of the mark here.
- I'm not sure what you are trying to say here - I think we can accept (because Erasmus said it openly in a press conference and it hasn't been disputed) that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract. As you point out
It's all at the unions discretion
- they decided not to offer him one - why?

Taking a reasonable view of the facts (rather than an agenda) - we know that there are a limited number of central contracts (number really isn't important) and that they are reserved for the players that they most want to keep in Ireland. We also know that Devin Toner has one until June 2020 and we know that Henderson's contract with Ulster runs to June 2018 and Dillane's contract with Connacht runs to June 2019 - all relevant facts.

It seems reasonable based on facts to suggest that the IRFU decided that Ryan didn't merit a central contract or as the Times reported (I note that you are taking some of that report and running with it, but not all) that Nucifora gambled on Ryan not leaving and accepting a very good provincial contract. IMO its absolutely a justifiable position to take on Ryan, although not certain I agree with it

There are limitations to central contracts but the Ryan saga doesn't highlight them


I'm really not sure how you can arrive at this conclusion - a current first choice player doesn't get offered a central contract, so then moves abroad, hugely weakening Munster and substantially weakening Ireland - yet thats not showing a limitation in the system???

Your mention of Bowe is relevant too because it is reasonable to assess that this is what the IRFU are trying to avoid.

Much as people don't like the comparison the IRFU had decisions to make on Heaslip and Ryan - there are arguements both ways for both of them - they'll ultimately be judged in 2 years on whether these were good deals - I hope they are - at the moment I don't think they look good given the depth in both positions, both provincially and nationally
Golf Man
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: November 2nd, 2010, 2:00 pm

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby Oldschool » April 5th, 2017, 4:12 pm

blockhead wrote:
Golf Man wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?


Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offer


...wanted to play for Leinster.

Everyone wants to play for Leinster.
Many are called but few are chosen.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
User avatar
Oldschool
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 9780
Joined: March 27th, 2008, 2:10 pm

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby paddyor » April 5th, 2017, 4:38 pm

Thye Ryan wanting out thing was first reported by Kinsella. There's no conspiracy to shame the player.
Code: Select all
While there has been general surprise and dismay in Ireland at news of Ryan’s exit, it’s understood that the lock has previously considered leaving Munster and even initiated discussions with the IRFU around a year ago about leaving the province early.

A well-educated and interesting character, Ryan has always been passionate about playing for Munster, but the prospect of sampling a new lifestyle and rugby culture is also an attractive part of Racing’s proposition.

http://www.the42.ie/munster-rassie-erasmus-donnacha-ryan-3309307-Mar2017/

If the IRFU considered him worth a central contract he'd get one. If Munster made an offer with IRFU, Munster and private funding in excess or equal to the RM offer he'd liekly stay too(Sexton, Heaslip Aki). It has nothing to do with Heaslip or any other player. And it has nothing to do with the role of central contracts and whatever their percieved limitations.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: November 17th, 2012, 12:48 am

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby Golf Man » April 5th, 2017, 5:06 pm

paddyor wrote:Thye Ryan wanting out thing was first reported by Kinsella. There's no conspiracy to shame the player.
Code: Select all
While there has been general surprise and dismay in Ireland at news of Ryan’s exit, it’s understood that the lock has previously considered leaving Munster and even initiated discussions with the IRFU around a year ago about leaving the province early.

A well-educated and interesting character, Ryan has always been passionate about playing for Munster, but the prospect of sampling a new lifestyle and rugby culture is also an attractive part of Racing’s proposition.

http://www.the42.ie/munster-rassie-erasmus-donnacha-ryan-3309307-Mar2017/

Bit of a jump to "he wanted out and was refused"

If the IRFU considered him worth a central contract he'd get one - completely agree

If Munster made an offer with IRFU, Munster and private funding in excess or equal to the RM offer he'd liekly stay too(Sexton, Heaslip Aki). - completely agree

It has nothing to do with Heaslip or any other player. if we have a limited number of central contracts to go around then by default every central contract offered is in reference to every other player (for example if they didn't give Toner one they would almost certainly have offered one to Ryan) - the Heaslip one is relevant becuase its recent and there are a lot of parallels although it wouldn't have an impact on Ryan deciusion in itself

And it has nothing to do with the role of central contracts and whatever their percieved limitations. - repeatedly stating it does make it true - central contracts by their very nature create a two tier system - there are huge bnenefits to them given the control you get on your key players - leaving someone without one automatically runs the risk of them leaving as its a clear statement of where you stand and the provinicial offer is going to be a downgrade

Golf Man
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: November 2nd, 2010, 2:00 pm

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby paddyor » April 5th, 2017, 5:37 pm

I can't read half of you post like the previous one.

There's no hard limit on the number of central contracts or how many from one position can be held(Healy, McGrath). It's all at the discretion of the IRFU. They may well have a target figure but if a player is deemed to be of enough commercial importannce they'll exceed it. And thats what CCs are all about, they can dictate player management without them. Really they need only make the request and none of the provinces will disobey them. Ryan isn't having his CC pulled becuase Heaslip got in before him. It is no more relevant than the Paddy Jackson contract or the Robbie Henshaw contract.

Other than status what are the actual benefits to the player of a CC? Genuinely?
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: November 17th, 2012, 12:48 am

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby domhnallj » April 5th, 2017, 6:01 pm

paddyor wrote:I can't read half of you post like the previous one.

There's no hard limit on the number of central contracts or how many from one position can be held(Healy, McGrath). It's all at the discretion of the IRFU. They may well have a target figure but if a player is deemed to be of enough commercial importannce they'll exceed it. And thats what CCs are all about, they can dictate player management without them. Really they need only make the request and none of the provinces will disobey them. Ryan isn't having his CC pulled becuase Heaslip got in before him. It is no more relevant than the Paddy Jackson contract or the Robbie Henshaw contract.

Other than status what are the actual benefits to the player of a CC? Genuinely?


Could someone please answer this?
"That was shiterarse coaches need to look at themselves this is as bad at is.beem with school. Items impeovrnkyb neefedc"

Golf Man sums up the mood of a nation
User avatar
domhnallj
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2424
Joined: May 19th, 2011, 9:12 am

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby johng » April 5th, 2017, 6:02 pm

More Donal Lunny! Image rights go to IRFU and you get paid extra for that whether they use you or not
User avatar
johng
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 16466
Joined: March 23rd, 2009, 11:37 pm
Location: Behind You!!

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby johng » April 5th, 2017, 6:04 pm

paddyor wrote:I can't read half of you post like the previous one.


Ah Jaysis. He didn't even spell anything wrong.
User avatar
johng
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 16466
Joined: March 23rd, 2009, 11:37 pm
Location: Behind You!!

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby simonokeeffe » April 5th, 2017, 6:14 pm

domhnallj wrote:
paddyor wrote:I can't read half of you post like the previous one.

There's no hard limit on the number of central contracts or how many from one position can be held(Healy, McGrath). It's all at the discretion of the IRFU. They may well have a target figure but if a player is deemed to be of enough commercial importannce they'll exceed it. And thats what CCs are all about, they can dictate player management without them. Really they need only make the request and none of the provinces will disobey them. Ryan isn't having his CC pulled becuase Heaslip got in before him. It is no more relevant than the Paddy Jackson contract or the Robbie Henshaw contract.

Other than status what are the actual benefits to the player of a CC? Genuinely?


Could someone please answer this?


like John says more cash and you get on more billboards, plus the prestige, but mainly its going to be more money without going into conspiracies
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
User avatar
simonokeeffe
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 15387
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 3:04 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby Grumpy Old Man » April 5th, 2017, 6:31 pm

Am I right in thinking that some players previously declined central contracts to protect their image rights, or something like that? I seem to recall Sean O'Brien being in that category at one stage.
A proud Winsome Fluter
User avatar
Grumpy Old Man
Brian O'Driscoll
 
Posts: 6499
Joined: February 22nd, 2006, 4:22 pm
Location: Home for the Slightly Bewildered

Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours

Postby simonokeeffe » April 5th, 2017, 6:40 pm

Grumpy Old Man wrote:Am I right in thinking that some players previously declined central contracts to protect their image rights, or something like that? I seem to recall Sean O'Brien being in that category at one stage.


the rumour I remember is SOB eschewed a central in favour of a provincial at one point so he'd have less corporate/endorsement/sponsors work to do and could spend more time on the farm

another rumour was John Hayes got a bye from that for same reason, but he was famously a man of few words and not as sexy (to sponsors) as SOB
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
User avatar
simonokeeffe
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 15387
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 3:04 am
Location: Dublin

Previous

Return to General Rugby

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AhrefsBot [Bot] and 1 guest