Future of European Club Rugby

[BlueBlue]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... showpieces

Interesting view points on what is happening in the Pro European club game, contrasting views about how healthy the English game is, shorthand 6N and the state of championship rugby in England, which I predict will be the next civil war in English club rugby, it might be a very short civil war, but a civil war nonetheless .

[simonokeeffe]

will check it out but removing relegation from the Premiership is only a matter of time

[olaf the fat]

Emm.. "If the Pro12 collaspes in" and "we are in the process of internationalising".

Are dark clouds gathering?

[Peg Leg]

Emm.. "If the Pro12 collaspes in" and "we are in the process of internationalising".

Are dark clouds gathering?

Not a chance, it's the only NH league in which the unions are are all fully engaged. The Premiershop would love it start creaking so they could talk more about commercial realities and unfair union support driving up the costs of player wages.

[Lar]

Some interesting angles pointed out in the blog but also some inconsistencies.

1 The international calendar is driving the club calendars but the internationals comprise only 5-10% of the players.
That's fine to some extent but it ignores (a) the internationals are the most recognisable and marketable and (b) that for the Unions outside England and France (and I include NZ, SA and Aus) international rugby drives 80% or so of rugby's revenue. Club rugby owners need to accept that they need other leagues to remain competitive in order for the game to survive professionally.

2 Strip out owner support in the form of sponsorship and every Premier League Club in England will have lost money this year. This suggests that the financial health of the game in England is not as strong as PRL would like to think.

3 The oft quoted Mark Evans worries about International Rugby, The Pro12 and the English Championship.
Possibly for different reasons but ultimately his message is clear - the economics don't support their survival. From what I understand he is totally wrong about the internationals in the SH whatever about Super Rugby. And one of the reasons the Pro12 clubs are not as financially healthy as they once were is because of what PRL and LNR did to a very successful brand like the Heineken Cup a few years ago. He is probably right about the Championship in England being in chaos, but again if the big clubs were prepared to pool TV money and share it around more evenly amongst top and second tier teams then the Championship would not be as chaotic as it would have a stronger base.

4 But the bit where Evans really makes little sense is where he sees a British League or two European Conferences being the logical outcome of economics for second tier leagues (incl. the Pro12). But in the same sentence he still sees the AP in England still being 12 teams. What he is wishing for is largely already in place if he equates The Pro12 with a 'British League'. The two European conferences already exists also with the Champions Cup and the Challenge Cup. If the Premiership will still be a 12 team league then does he envisage the lesser English teams playing Welsh, Scottish and Irish sides? Whither the Italian and lesser French sides. La Rochelle are now riding high - in Evans' brave new rugby world would they even get a chance again?

[BlueBlue]

Emm.. "If the Pro12 collaspes in" and "we are in the process of internationalising".

Are dark clouds gathering?

Not a chance, it's the only NH league in which the unions are are all fully engaged. The Premiershop would love it start creaking so they could talk more about commercial realities and unfair union support driving up the costs of player wages.

I think that's a bit of English arrogance, assuming we all want to row in with them. The unions control the Pro12, the welsh civil war resulted in more control by the WRU. that's A BIG DIFFERENCE. And one that the English clubs continue to struggle with as a concept.

[BlueBlue]

Some interesting angles pointed out in the blog but also some inconsistencies.

1 The international calendar is driving the club calendars but the internationals comprise only 5-10% of the players.
That's fine to some extent but it ignores (a) the internationals are the most recognisable and marketable and (b) that for the Unions outside England and France (and I include NZ, SA and Aus) international rugby drives 80% or so of rugby's revenue. Club rugby owners need to accept that they need other leagues to remain competitive in order for the game to survive professionally.

2 Strip out owner support in the form of sponsorship and every Premier League Club in England will have lost money this year. This suggests that the financial health of the game in England is not as strong as PRL would like to think.

3 The oft quoted Mark Evans worries about International Rugby, The Pro12 and the English Championship.
Possibly for different reasons but ultimately his message is clear - the economics don't support their survival. From what I understand he is totally wrong about the internationals in the SH whatever about Super Rugby. And one of the reasons the Pro12 clubs are not as financially healthy as they once were is because of what PRL and LNR did to a very successful brand like the Heineken Cup a few years ago. He is probably right about the Championship in England being in chaos, but again if the big clubs were prepared to pool TV money and share it around more evenly amongst top and second tier teams then the Championship would not be as chaotic as it would have a stronger base.

4 But the bit where Evans really makes little sense is where he sees a British League or two European Conferences being the logical outcome of economics for second tier leagues (incl. the Pro12). But in the same sentence he still sees the AP in England still being 12 teams. What he is wishing for is largely already in place if he equates The Pro12 with a 'British League'. The two European conferences already exists also with the Champions Cup and the Challenge Cup. If the Premiership will still be a 12 team league then does he envisage the lesser English teams playing Welsh, Scottish and Irish sides? Whither the Italian and lesser French sides. La Rochelle are now riding high - in Evans' brave new rugby world would they even get a chance again?

Funny, a world seen only from one's own point of view. If only it was ever thus.

[cormac]

I think there's a tendency by rugby fans in Ireland to overestimate the Pro12 simply because the IRFU invests quite heavily in the provincial sides, certainly in comparison to the Welsh, Scots and Italians.

The two Italian sides seem to be in a constant battle for survival each season. Glasgow have provided a model for success but has it been at the expense of Edinburgh who've been a fair old shambles of late.

And then there's the Welsh sides. The Dragons have been up for sale for some time now and no buyer has been found. Hence why the WRU has had to step in. The Dragons have been paying their squad £1m short of the fairly meagre salary cap that the Welsh regions imposed on themselves. The four regions were in rickety enough shape before the WRU and the regions "declared war" on each other. They're now a shambles and even further away from being competitive in a European context than they were before.

[Lar]

I think there's a tendency by rugby fans in Ireland to overestimate the Pro12 simply because the IRFU invests quite heavily in the provincial sides, certainly in comparison to the Welsh, Scots and Italians.

There is no doubt you are right about that but the Pro12 is not that bad either. Two teams in the semi-finals of the ECC says a certain amount and that is since the new carve up of money that the PRL and LNR engineered. [Fully accept we had none last year and may have none next year but there were historically anyway some years when we had 3 semi-finalists out of four]

But the quality of rugby from the sides at the top of the Pro12 was comparable to anything the AP and the Top14 have produced this season. I don't expect either of the semi-finals to be anything other than very tight games. The Pro12 sides generally acquitted themselves very well against the AP and Top14 sides this season.

Sure the Dragons are a bit of a mess and the Italian sides don't seem to be coming up to the mark either. Edinburgh are as you say suffering due to a concentration on Glasgow but are the bottom 4 in the AP up to that much? I certainly don't think we should be getting rid of the Italians from the Pro12 as a result.

No relegation from the AP looks like it will come in before too long. This actually gets rid of one of the very reasons the PRL gave for why their sides were under-performing in Europe. But more importantly it shows an acceptance that even in England there are only so many teams that a top class professional league can support.

[kermischocolate]

I think there's a tendency by rugby fans in Ireland to overestimate the Pro12 simply because the IRFU invests quite heavily in the provincial sides, certainly in comparison to the Welsh, Scots and Italians.

There is no doubt you are right about that but the Pro12 is not that bad either. Two teams in the semi-finals of the ECC says a certain amount and that is since the new carve up of money that the PRL and LNR engineered. [Fully accept we had none last year and may have none next year but there were historically anyway some years when we had 3 semi-finalists out of four]

But the quality of rugby from the sides at the top of the Pro12 was comparable to anything the AP and the Top14 have produced this season. I don't expect either of the semi-finals to be anything other than very tight games. The Pro12 sides generally acquitted themselves very well against the AP and Top14 sides this season.

Sure the Dragons are a bit of a mess and the Italian sides don't seem to be coming up to the mark either. Edinburgh are as you say suffering due to a concentration on Glasgow but are the bottom 4 in the AP up to that much? I certainly don't think we should be getting rid of the Italians from the Pro12 as a result.

No relegation from the AP looks like it will come in before too long. This actually gets rid of one of the very reasons the PRL gave for why their sides were under-performing in Europe. But more importantly it shows an acceptance that even in England there are only so many teams that a top class professional league can support.

The SRU haven't concentrated on Glasgow at the expense of Edinburgh though.

[simonokeeffe]

if anything all the players wanted to go to Glasgow and SRFU over meddled with Edinburgh

Players union in England is opposed to 10 month Premiership season as part of global calender and is threatening strike action over it

[ronk]

They have a salary cap

Incomes went up and they shot up the salary cap. Clubs don't deserve to make money if they get that decision that wrong.

They did it to try to damage the SANZAR and Celtic teams.

[kermischocolate]

if anything all the players wanted to go to Glasgow and SRFU over meddled with Edinburgh

Aye but why did they want to come to Glasgow? Besides quite a few didn't. Hardie, du Preez, Watson are notable examples.

It's not so much the SRU have meddled with Edinburgh, it's there's no separation between the two. Edinburgh need to get out of murrayfield and need a rocket up their arses which hopefully Cockerill will provide.

[simonokeeffe]

if anything all the players wanted to go to Glasgow and SRFU over meddled with Edinburgh

Aye but why did they want to come to Glasgow? Besides quite a few didn't. Hardie, du Preez, Watson are notable examples.

It's not so much the SRU have meddled with Edinburgh, it's there's no separation between the two. Edinburgh need to get out of murrayfield and need a rocket up their arses which hopefully Cockerill will provide.

Cos Glasgow had their sh*t together a lot more, maybe those guys knew they were guaranteed starters at Edinburgh

are they still moving to the uni ground or Maggottland or wherever?

[olaf the fat]

Wales may be more of a problem than Italy or Scotland.

They seem to look longingly at the AP. If only they could or would compete in the Hcup/CCup they may get some traction for their clubs. At the moment they seem mildly interested in the PRO12.

We see 2 Pro12 clubs in the last 4 in Europe - others see it as 2 IRFU teams

[kermischocolate]

if anything all the players wanted to go to Glasgow and SRFU over meddled with Edinburgh

Aye but why did they want to come to Glasgow? Besides quite a few didn't. Hardie, du Preez, Watson are notable examples.

It's not so much the SRU have meddled with Edinburgh, it's there's no separation between the two. Edinburgh need to get out of murrayfield and need a rocket up their arses which hopefully Cockerill will provide.

Cos Glasgow had their sh*t together a lot more, maybe those guys knew they were guaranteed starters at Edinburgh

are they still moving to the uni ground or Maggottland or wherever?

Yea, no one in Edinburgh ever gets dropped.

I believe the move to Meggetland was a trial, they've not announced what's happening next year yet.
They really need to separate from murrayfield imo.

[Dave Cahill]

Myreside rather than Meggetland

[simonokeeffe]

somewhere
maybe theyre digging their heels in as Matt Williams first floated the idea

@Olaf the hilariously cruel thing would be if the Pro12 went belly up and or EPCR fell apart the Prem would take the 4 Irish sides in heartbeat (package deal) into a conference based league (or 2 division setup) and Welsh would be told you can have 2 teams or eff off

[Dave Cahill]

Thats the thing that welsh fans don't understand and welsh administrators know for certain!

[ronk]

Thats the thing that welsh fans don't understand and welsh administrators know for certain!

But would it bother administrators if it was a fair accompli that was beyond their control and there was no alternative.