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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Laighin Break » April 9th, 2017, 8:32 am

Didn't Garry play 12 for Ireland in one of he November games?

Duncan Williams has come along leaps and bounds for Munster. His pass for the ROM disallowed try was class. I don't think ROM's moment can quite be compared to Le Roux as he had a chap hanging out of his arm.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby simonokeeffe » April 9th, 2017, 9:50 am

wixfjord wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:
Think TOD just rested/rotated for this one
AFAIK Copeland and posibly Madigan are injured
Chisholm is well documented
Wycherley is too young/small


Copeland played AIL today, as did Wycherley and Coombes.
Madigan & Chisholm both played A game last week, as did Darren O'Shea.

Deysel was signed as a 'lock' replacement for Kleyn. Isn't it fine and dandy to be able to sign a Saffer backrow and say he's a lock, the play him in the backrow? :lol:


bit of a difference between AIL and HC (or Glasgow) and theres matter of fitness at time of signings, may have been off with injury stuff

know theyre not playing this lock at lock but Im ok with it (this season) and am pretty sure he wont make 23 when theyre going full metal jacket

cant remember who said it but Scannell is just ordinary rest, he'll be back too
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby ronk » April 9th, 2017, 10:39 am

neiliog93 wrote:I think you mean Fardy. And no, that won't happen. We have so many back rowers he just won't be needed.


Fardy probably will at some point, but not much and possibly more centred about having him cover lock bench from 6.

Regardless he's in quota. We're not signing him on a pretext of emergency need based on an injury crisis and then deciding he's a luxury in the position of need. He simply doesn't belong in this discussion.

If you want backup for existing options you don't hire a high level international.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby wixfjord » April 9th, 2017, 11:19 am

ronk wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:I think you mean Fardy. And no, that won't happen. We have so many back rowers he just won't be needed.


Fardy probably will at some point, but not much and possibly more centred about having him cover lock bench from 6.

Regardless he's in quota. We're not signing him on a pretext of emergency need based on an injury crisis and then deciding he's a luxury in the position of need. He simply doesn't belong in this discussion.

If you want backup for existing options you don't hire a high level international.


Exactly.

Munster signing a lock injury joker was funny enough, considering they're already covered there and that's their 10th foreign player this year.
But signing another SA backrow, calling him a lock and then playing him at backrow really takes the biscuit!
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby munster#1 » April 9th, 2017, 11:51 am

The Doc wrote:
munster#1 wrote:Why are people getting so worked up over this.

So Munster are clearly missing 2 of their beat locks and we're granted by the clubs owners to sign a temp signing.
Instead if using him at lock, they decided to play a home grown player there instead, and use the temp lock signing in the back row to give lads a much needed rest.

In this scenario, Munster have given a home grown player so needed game time, and other players a much needed rest, along with getting the temp signing some minutes in his legs.

Munster, like Leinster, will need to use their squad very wisely over the next few weeks. They need to give certain players some time off, and give others some game time to develop and add options.
Given Munster's problem at lock, Doc may well be a good bench option to cover 4, 5 and 6 with JOD covering 7 and 8.

Scannell may be required to move to out half, so Munster need to cover that eventually by having Taute and Saili playing together.

I think posters are looking for ways to feel offended, or have a sly dig at Munster, but they are not looking objectively.

Think you might be reacting to some fishing :D



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After reading your post I was in agreement with you, but it appears that after your post a few extras joined the rodeo.
Perhaps they are just rodeo clowns, but they may also just be bulls, seeing little more than a red rag.

If this lad goes on to start ahead of any of Munster's first choice backrow players in a big game, or even bench ahead of a fit JOD then I will join the outrage brigade, but right now they do seem like little more than narrow minded individuals.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Timbit » April 9th, 2017, 12:45 pm

wixfjord wrote:
ronk wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:I think you mean Fardy. And no, that won't happen. We have so many back rowers he just won't be needed.


Fardy probably will at some point, but not much and possibly more centred about having him cover lock bench from 6.

Regardless he's in quota. We're not signing him on a pretext of emergency need based on an injury crisis and then deciding he's a luxury in the position of need. He simply doesn't belong in this discussion.

If you want backup for existing options you don't hire a high level international.


Exactly.

Munster signing a lock injury joker was funny enough, considering they're already covered there and that's their 10th foreign player this year.
But signing another SA backrow, calling him a lock and then playing him at backrow really takes the biscuit!


Third time the goalposts have been moved in two pages. Impressive. Started with outrage that Jaco played centre, moved on to Sailli and Taute starting, moved on to Deysl playing in backrow, moved again.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby wixfjord » April 9th, 2017, 12:47 pm

Timbit wrote:
Third time the goalposts have been moved in two pages. Impressive. Started with outrage that Jaco played centre, moved on to Sailli and Taute starting, moved on to Deysl playing in backrow, moved again.


Point out where I mentioned Saili or Taute please?
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby paddyor » April 9th, 2017, 1:36 pm

munster#1 wrote:After reading your post I was in agreement with you, but it appears that after your post a few extras joined the rodeo.
Perhaps they are just rodeo clowns, but they may also just be bulls, seeing little more than a red rag.

If this lad goes on to start ahead of any of Munster's first choice backrow players in a big game, or even bench ahead of a fit JOD then I will join the outrage brigade, but right now they do seem like little more than narrow minded individuals.

Rodeo clowns...Raging bulls......Outrage brigade.....Narrow minded individuals. Tha's quite the list of enemies you've amassed. You okay, you seem rattled? Have people been disagreeing with you again?
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby paddyor » April 9th, 2017, 2:14 pm

Three Super Rugby teams, including one from Australia, are to be axed after this season, governing body SANZAAR has announced.

Under pressure due to financial losses and fan discontent over the confusing and unbalanced competition, SANZAAR has opted to slash it from 18 teams to 15 and from four conferences to three - the numbers that existed in 2015.

SANZAAR has left it to the national rugby unions involved to announce the teams to be cut, Australia's Perth-based Western Force and South Africa's Kings and Cheetahs widely considered the most vulnerable franchises.

The 18-team format, introduced in 2016 after Argentina's Jaguares and the Sunwolves of Japan joined the competition and the Kings returned, was widely criticised and there were fears the quality of the product was being diluted.


Happy shopping!
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby dropkick » April 9th, 2017, 4:13 pm

paddyor wrote:
Three Super Rugby teams, including one from Australia, are to be axed after this season, governing body SANZAAR has announced.

Under pressure due to financial losses and fan discontent over the confusing and unbalanced competition, SANZAAR has opted to slash it from 18 teams to 15 and from four conferences to three - the numbers that existed in 2015.

SANZAAR has left it to the national rugby unions involved to announce the teams to be cut, Australia's Perth-based Western Force and South Africa's Kings and Cheetahs widely considered the most vulnerable franchises.

The 18-team format, introduced in 2016 after Argentina's Jaguares and the Sunwolves of Japan joined the competition and the Kings returned, was widely criticised and there were fears the quality of the product was being diluted.


Happy shopping!



There'll probably be less players to pick. Fewer teams means they'll be able to pay a high wage to the top players (those that European team are eyeing up) and they can get rid of the low quality players, who nobody wants.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby ronk » April 9th, 2017, 9:47 pm

dropkick wrote:
paddyor wrote:
Three Super Rugby teams, including one from Australia, are to be axed after this season, governing body SANZAAR has announced.

Under pressure due to financial losses and fan discontent over the confusing and unbalanced competition, SANZAAR has opted to slash it from 18 teams to 15 and from four conferences to three - the numbers that existed in 2015.

SANZAAR has left it to the national rugby unions involved to announce the teams to be cut, Australia's Perth-based Western Force and South Africa's Kings and Cheetahs widely considered the most vulnerable franchises.

The 18-team format, introduced in 2016 after Argentina's Jaguares and the Sunwolves of Japan joined the competition and the Kings returned, was widely criticised and there were fears the quality of the product was being diluted.


Happy shopping!



There'll probably be less players to pick. Fewer teams means they'll be able to pay a high wage to the top players (those that European team are eyeing up) and they can get rid of the low quality players, who nobody wants.


3 full squads to hit the market
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby munster#1 » April 10th, 2017, 8:58 am

Funny reading all these digs directed at Munster about signing so many foreign players, and in fairness they have signed an unprecedented number, but the likely squad for the big games will be:

Killer, Scannell, Ryan,
Ryan, Holland,
POM, TOD, Stander,
Murray, Tyler,
Sweetnam, Scannell, Taute, Earls, Zebo.

Rep: Cronin, Marshall, Archer, DOC, JOD, Williams, Keatly, Saili.

Granted Kleyn would no doubt be in there either ahead of, or behind Holland, but the persecution seems a bit wide of the mark when you look at the facts.
All fit, we would have 2 (maybe 3 if Kleyn were fit) Niq players in the starting 15, and 2 on the bench ( not counting Kleyn twice).

Kleyn fit, that brings it to 5 niq players, with 3 of those being project players that.
Granted the number should probably be less, maybe reduced to 4, but it is proof that despite the outrage, Munster have developed or are playing a large percentage of IQ players in their starting squad.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby goreyguy » April 10th, 2017, 9:18 am

[quote="munster#1"]Funny reading all these digs directed at Munster about signing so many foreign players, and in fairness they have signed an unprecedented number, but the likely squad for the big games will be:

Killer, Scannell, Ryan,
Ryan, Holland,
POM, TOD, Stander,
Murray, Tyler,
Sweetnam, Scannell, Taute, Earls, Zebo.

Rep: Cronin, Marshall, Archer, DOC, JOD, Williams, Keatly, Saili.

Granted Kleyn would no doubt be in there either ahead of, or behind Holland, but the persecution seems a bit wide of the mark when you look at the facts.
All fit, we would have 2 (maybe 3 if Kleyn were fit) Niq players in the starting 15, and 2 on the bench ( not counting Kleyn twice).

Kleyn fit, that brings it to 5 niq players, with 3 of those being project players that.
Granted the number should probably be less, maybe reduced to 4, but it is proof that despite the outrage, Munster have developed or are playing a large percentage of IQ players in their starting squad.[/quote]

that's a minimum requirement.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Timbit » April 10th, 2017, 9:35 am

goreyguy wrote:
munster#1 wrote:Funny reading all these digs directed at Munster about signing so many foreign players, and in fairness they have signed an unprecedented number, but the likely squad for the big games will be:

Killer, Scannell, Ryan,
Ryan, Holland,
POM, TOD, Stander,
Murray, Tyler,
Sweetnam, Scannell, Taute, Earls, Zebo.

Rep: Cronin, Marshall, Archer, DOC, JOD, Williams, Keatly, Saili.

Granted Kleyn would no doubt be in there either ahead of, or behind Holland, but the persecution seems a bit wide of the mark when you look at the facts.
All fit, we would have 2 (maybe 3 if Kleyn were fit) Niq players in the starting 15, and 2 on the bench ( not counting Kleyn twice).

Kleyn fit, that brings it to 5 niq players, with 3 of those being project players that.
Granted the number should probably be less, maybe reduced to 4, but it is proof that despite the outrage, Munster have developed or are playing a large percentage of IQ players in their starting squad.[/quote]

that's a minimum requirement.


I actually agree and do think (I would though wouldn't I) that Munster are meeting their medium requirements. We've developed a first squad in Munster using our projects as well. We haven't developed a full squad in the way Leinster have though. So we have a lot of players filling out the Munster A and making occasional appearances in Pro 12 games.
It's clear Rassie is trying to address that though, giving Wycherly a start in the Pro 12 given where he's at was audacious.
I get there's a tension between keeping the provinces competitive in Europe and developing Irish talent. That's Nucifora's job and I don't envy him. Leinster are in the very enviable position of basically having a 45 man home grown squad and being competitive in Europe. I'm really impressed with that!

I'm not sure it's likely that Munster can both be competitive in Europe and have a full 45 from the province. Simple maths tells us a third of all potential rugby players are going to be from Dublin or the greater Dublin region. So what do we do? We could allow Munster to stick to their quota and play less competitively. I'm not against that, the problem is that makes it harder to bring players to the required level for the Ireland squad. There's no denying that to play for your country you are best served apprenticing in the business end of competitions.

More NIQs in the larger squad but developing Irish lads when possible seems to be the approach that's being trialed at the moment. I'd imagine it's linked to this season to get the club back to being an attractive place for players and coaches alike to come to. It was very disappointing when Ultan didn't want to come back to Munster. Shows what the perception of Munster was at the time. I'd like to think that view has changed.

I find it hard to follow the objections here though. If you want Munster to not be competitive, fine, like I say, I don't think that's wrong. Although it might be best to say that. If you can think of a better approach then brilliant, I'm all ears.

Like I could see there being more of an open doors policy between provinces until senior team but the recent raft of contracts renewed doesn't seem to point to that. I'm sure that Ulster, Connacht, or indeed ourselves, would have welcomed one of your international class backrows into our provinces with open arms but they are all staying in Leinster, and I respect them for it. But you look at the Madigan situation and wonder if we could have convinced him to go to any of the other provinces and be available for Ireland now.

Anyway, ramble over. Well done on the win at the weekend. Did us a huge favour! Hoping it's another all Ireland Pro 12 final!
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby munster#1 » April 10th, 2017, 9:43 am

goreyguy wrote:
munster#1 wrote:Funny reading all these digs directed at Munster about signing so many foreign players, and in fairness they have signed an unprecedented number, but the likely squad for the big games will be:

Killer, Scannell, Ryan,
Ryan, Holland,
POM, TOD, Stander,
Murray, Tyler,
Sweetnam, Scannell, Taute, Earls, Zebo.

Rep: Cronin, Marshall, Archer, DOC, JOD, Williams, Keatly, Saili.

Granted Kleyn would no doubt be in there either ahead of, or behind Holland, but the persecution seems a bit wide of the mark when you look at the facts.
All fit, we would have 2 (maybe 3 if Kleyn were fit) Niq players in the starting 15, and 2 on the bench ( not counting Kleyn twice).

Kleyn fit, that brings it to 5 niq players, with 3 of those being project players that.
Granted the number should probably be less, maybe reduced to 4, but it is proof that despite the outrage, Munster have developed or are playing a large percentage of IQ players in their starting squad.[/quote]

that's a minimum requirement.


It is not a minimum requirement, it is the only requirement. It is the reason that the provinces exist in their current form, and the reason they remain to do so.

Munster had probably more players capped in this seasons 6 nations that any of the previous years since Joe took over.
That alone shows that all of these foreign players are not preventing local talent from coming through, and are, more likely to improve their set.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Golf Man » April 10th, 2017, 10:26 am

Its fairly obvious trolling (and boring at that) but there really isn't much difference when it really boils down to it

A quick look at the European stats - Leinster have given 14 starts in this European campaign to NIQs - Munster have 16 - Munster have more sub appearances but on average Munster have 4 NIQ in a match day squad, Leinster have 3. Munster may have two NIQ centres in a 23, Leinster often have 2 NIQ back 3 players (and will do so again next season)

Munster rely more on NIQ - we don't and probably will never have the depth within Munster that Leinster have - and the reasons for that (Population, schools system primarily) aren't going to change any time soon.

Its also very clear that we are developing more and better Irish players - Ryan, Scannell x 2, Sweetnam, JOD etc
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby paddyor » April 10th, 2017, 10:30 am

munster#1 wrote:Funny reading all these digs directed at Munster about signing so many foreign players, and in fairness they have signed an unprecedented number, but the likely squad for the big games will be:

Killer, Scannell, Ryan,
Ryan, Holland,
POM, TOD, Stander,
Murray, Tyler,
Sweetnam, Scannell, Taute, Earls, Zebo.

Rep: Cronin, Marshall, Archer, DOC, JOD, Williams, Keatly, Saili.

Granted Kleyn would no doubt be in there either ahead of, or behind Holland, but the persecution seems a bit wide of the mark when you look at the facts.
All fit, we would have 2 (maybe 3 if Kleyn were fit) Niq players in the starting 15, and 2 on the bench ( not counting Kleyn twice).

Kleyn fit, that brings it to 5 niq players, with 3 of those being project players that.
Granted the number should probably be less, maybe reduced to 4, but it is proof that despite the outrage, Munster have developed or are playing a large percentage of IQ players in their starting squad.

THat makes no sense. We should have less NIQ players but even though we don't it's proof we're developing players?

It hasn't been reduced to 4 and you've played more than just 4 NIQ players throughout the season. And they've helped you to 2nd in the league, possibly 1st and likely a home SF. I wonder how much better Ulster would be with an extra 2-3 Super rugby players that they can ocassionally drop in ahead of Reidy for example (similar level to Copeland)
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England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby All Blacks nil » April 10th, 2017, 11:34 am

Golf Man wrote:Its fairly obvious trolling (and boring at that) but there really isn't much difference when it really boils down to it

A quick look at the European stats - Leinster have given 14 starts in this European campaign to NIQs - Munster have 16 - Munster have more sub appearances but on average Munster have 4 NIQ in a match day squad, Leinster have 3. Munster may have two NIQ centres in a 23, Leinster often have 2 NIQ back 3 players (and will do so again next season)

Munster rely more on NIQ - we don't and probably will never have the depth within Munster that Leinster have - and the reasons for that (Population, schools system primarily) aren't going to change any time soon.

Its also very clear that we are developing more and better Irish players - Ryan, Scannell x 2, Sweetnam, JOD etc


*** Edited by Mod ***
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Golf Man » April 10th, 2017, 12:22 pm

I know nothing will stop the trolls - I'm not a fan of the ignore button but threads are pretty unreadable with shite like this being posted continuously

Two quarter finals
Munster - 4 NIQ in 23 (2+2 - Taute, Bleyendall, Marshall, Sailli ), 1 Residency Qualified (Stander), 1 IQ developed elsewhere (Conway) and 17 who came through Munster system

Leinster - 4 NIQ in 23 (2+2 - Nacewa, Triggs, JGP, Kirchner), 1 Residency Qualified (Strauss), 2 IQ developed elsewhere (Bent & Henshaw) and 16 who came through the Leinster system

There's nothing worth talking about in the difference and its all pots and kettles - Munster have probably pushed it a little bit this year with the jokers, but Leinster haved pushed it before (Thorn) and are kind of pushing it again next year with two Back 3 NIQs again - the year after ROL, Byrne and Carberry break through
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby All Blacks nil » April 10th, 2017, 12:33 pm

If you really want to be pedantic, two of the four Munster NIEs (TB and RM) are project players whereas only one of the Leinster 4 (JGB) is a project player.
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