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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby paddyor » April 10th, 2017, 12:33 pm

All Blacks nil wrote:
Golf Man wrote:Its fairly obvious trolling (and boring at that) but there really isn't much difference when it really boils down to it

A quick look at the European stats - Leinster have given 14 starts in this European campaign to NIQs - Munster have 16 - Munster have more sub appearances but on average Munster have 4 NIQ in a match day squad, Leinster have 3. Munster may have two NIQ centres in a 23, Leinster often have 2 NIQ back 3 players (and will do so again next season)

Munster rely more on NIQ - we don't and probably will never have the depth within Munster that Leinster have - and the reasons for that (Population, schools system primarily) aren't going to change any time soon.

Its also very clear that we are developing more and better Irish players - Ryan, Scannell x 2, Sweetnam, JOD etc


You won't stop Paddyor trolling or change his mind. He still thinks Rhys Ruddock will make it as a Six Nations blindside on the back of a masterclass in tackling in Exeter (I think) three years ago against the English Saxons (see signature) Bless him

Funny, but MunsterSugar who seems to have been banned from the forum (he/she was provocative) has had his/her signature with a reference to Paddyor deleted by the moderators.

Troll on Paddy

I remember that year, Ruddock went on to get a 6 nations medal. Was in great form all the way into the 6 nations and captained the Wolfhounds. Handy reminder in the signature. Just the facts.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby paddyor » April 10th, 2017, 12:38 pm

Golf Man wrote:I know nothing will stop the trolls - I'm not a fan of the ignore button but threads are pretty unreadable with shite like this being posted continuously

Two quarter finals
Munster - 4 NIQ in 23 (2+2 - Taute, Bleyendall, Marshall, Sailli ), 1 Residency Qualified (Stander), 1 IQ developed elsewhere (Conway) and 17 who came through Munster system

Leinster - 4 NIQ in 23 (2+2 - Nacewa, Triggs, JGP, Kirchner), 1 Residency Qualified (Strauss), 2 IQ developed elsewhere (Bent & Henshaw) and 16 who came through the Leinster system

There's nothing worth talking about in the difference and its all pots and kettles - Munster have probably pushed it a little bit this year with the jokers, but Leinster haved pushed it before (Thorn) and are kind of pushing it again next year with two Back 3 NIQs again - the year after ROL, Byrne and Carberry break through

What about the other 25 games in the season where the imports bolstered the squad?
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby All Blacks nil » April 10th, 2017, 12:47 pm

paddyor wrote:
All Blacks nil wrote:
Golf Man wrote:Its fairly obvious trolling (and boring at that) but there really isn't much difference when it really boils down to it

A quick look at the European stats - Leinster have given 14 starts in this European campaign to NIQs - Munster have 16 - Munster have more sub appearances but on average Munster have 4 NIQ in a match day squad, Leinster have 3. Munster may have two NIQ centres in a 23, Leinster often have 2 NIQ back 3 players (and will do so again next season)

Munster rely more on NIQ - we don't and probably will never have the depth within Munster that Leinster have - and the reasons for that (Population, schools system primarily) aren't going to change any time soon.

Its also very clear that we are developing more and better Irish players - Ryan, Scannell x 2, Sweetnam, JOD etc


You won't stop Paddyor trolling or change his mind. He still thinks Rhys Ruddock will make it as a Six Nations blindside on the back of a masterclass in tackling in Exeter (I think) three years ago against the English Saxons (see signature) Bless him

Funny, but MunsterSugar who seems to have been banned from the forum (he/she was provocative) has had his/her signature with a reference to Paddyor deleted by the moderators.

Troll on Paddy

I remember that year, Ruddock went on to get a 6 nations medal. Was in great form all the way into the 6 nations and captained the Wolfhounds. Handy reminder in the signature. Just the facts.
That's right
Played 25 mins against Italy in BOD's swansong. Made one tackle that day of a career total of 5 as a Six Nations blindside.
Five tackles in three years doesn't suggest he has made it as a big tackling Six Nations blindside.
There is always next year as he reaches his peak and improves his athleticism.
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby Golf Man » April 10th, 2017, 3:40 pm

paddyor wrote:
Golf Man wrote:I know nothing will stop the trolls - I'm not a fan of the ignore button but threads are pretty unreadable with shite like this being posted continuously

Two quarter finals
Munster - 4 NIQ in 23 (2+2 - Taute, Bleyendall, Marshall, Sailli ), 1 Residency Qualified (Stander), 1 IQ developed elsewhere (Conway) and 17 who came through Munster system

Leinster - 4 NIQ in 23 (2+2 - Nacewa, Triggs, JGP, Kirchner), 1 Residency Qualified (Strauss), 2 IQ developed elsewhere (Bent & Henshaw) and 16 who came through the Leinster system

There's nothing worth talking about in the difference and its all pots and kettles - Munster have probably pushed it a little bit this year with the jokers, but Leinster haved pushed it before (Thorn) and are kind of pushing it again next year with two Back 3 NIQs again - the year after ROL, Byrne and Carberry break through

What about the other 25 games in the season where the imports bolstered the squad?


I decided to check - 13.6% of Leinster's starts this year have been by NIQ, 16.3% of Munsters have. Looking at it from match day squad - Leinster are at 12.4%, Munster are at 14.8%

What can be deduced from this
1.Munster are marginally more reliant than Leinster on NIQ, something which I think everybody is in agreement with
2. You are talking out of your arse
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Re: Munster 2016-2017

Postby limecat » April 10th, 2017, 3:57 pm

This thread is once again becoming an embarrassment. Locking until I have time to make a decision on it's (and the worst offending posters) future.
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ugh...

Postby Dave Cahill » April 12th, 2017, 2:39 pm

Cor. Ind. wrote:I'm loving the arrogance on this thread. Oh, hear ye Mocker Gods? Dave Cahill has opined between morsels of KFC chicken, spice bags and Big Macs...

Munster will be lucky if they manage to get nil on the scoreboard.


This is what I said about Munster

Munster are an okay side, not much more, who have been boosted by external motivation and an avant-garde application of the foreign player rules


and

Back in October, when both sides had pretty much their full selections available to them, give or take, Leinster gave Munster a bit of a tanning without getting out of second gear so in that regard I'd far rather play them than Saracens, but theres still an element to the interprovincial derby that renders it unpredictable and that makes me wary.


I see nothing other than simple statements of fact. Where is the arrogance and why?
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Re: The other semi

Postby Golf Man » April 12th, 2017, 3:06 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:This is what I said about Munster

Munster are an okay side, not much more, who have been boosted by external motivation and an avant-garde application of the foreign player rules


and

Back in October, when both sides had pretty much their full selections available to them, give or take, Leinster gave Munster a bit of a tanning without getting out of second gear so in that regard I'd far rather play them than Saracens, but theres still an element to the interprovincial derby that renders it unpredictable and that makes me wary.


I see nothing other than simple statements of fact. Where is the arrogance and why?


Munster are an okay side, not much more,
- an opinion, not a statement of fact
who have been boosted by external motivation
- fact but entirely unquantifiable
boosted by .. an avant-garde application of the foreign player rules
- clearly not a fact - Leinster are pretty much reliant as Munster on NIQs

Back in October, when both sides had pretty much their full selections available to them, give or take, Leinster gave Munster a bit of a tanning without getting out of second gear so in that regard I'd far rather play them than Saracens, but theres still an element to the interprovincial derby that renders it unpredictable and that makes me wary.
- there are facts in there but its missing a lot of context. Munster have won 19/21 games since the game you refer to

You are kind of right though, although are are arguing it the wrong way - Munster are clearly, on paper, the worst of the 4 teams left and thereby the one that most would want to play
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Re: The other semi

Postby Dave Cahill » April 12th, 2017, 3:28 pm

Golf Man wrote:
Munster are an okay side, not much more,
- an opinion, not a statement of fact


No, thats fair enough, I wasn't clear enough in my meaning, you were right to point that out.

I should have been clearer and said something along of the lines of

Munster finished sixth last season which would indicate they were an okay side but not much more


and then said

who have since been boosted by a new head coach, external motivation and and having 10 Non Irish Qualified players on their books this season, more than double the normally allowed limit
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Re: The other semi

Postby Cor. Ind. » April 12th, 2017, 4:19 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Cor. Ind. wrote:I'm loving the arrogance on this thread. Oh, hear ye Mocker Gods? Dave Cahill has opined between morsels of KFC chicken, spice bags and Big Macs...

Munster will be lucky if they manage to get nil on the scoreboard.


This is what I said about Munster

Munster are an okay side, not much more, who have been boosted by external motivation and an avant-garde application of the foreign player rules


and

Back in October, when both sides had pretty much their full selections available to them, give or take, Leinster gave Munster a bit of a tanning without getting out of second gear so in that regard I'd far rather play them than Saracens, but theres still an element to the interprovincial derby that renders it unpredictable and that makes me wary.


I see nothing other than simple statements of fact. Where is the arrogance and why?



Loving your backhanded compliments. An okay team that finished 2nd seeds in the group stages, has gotten past last year's T14 champions, and 4 & 2 times HEC winners along the way.

Whatever the motivational stimulus was after the sudden, tragic loss of Foley, it can only take you so far. If it was only that we would have hit a massive lull by now.

Your focus on our "avant-garde application of foreign player rules" is worth investigating. Half of the famed 'terrible ten' have played barely a minute of 1st team rugby this season and some not a minute at all: Griesel, Chisholm, Toma, Deysel, Du Toit.
Of the remaining 5, 3 (Rhys, TB, Kleyn) are Nucifora sanctioned projects who will all become IQ in the next two years. Of the remaining two, one is a medical joker (Jaco) and the other was our big ticket acquisition (Saili) to help push season ticket sales, a la James Lowe.

A far better comparison between Munster & Leinster is to look at our use of resources in the recent ERC QF. There we used 2 pps and 2 niqs, while you used 1 pp and 3 niqs - how truly avant-garde...Take it away Derick Bailey!

What really amazes me though is that a county the size of Cork (less than 200k) can produce 11 players in Munster's 23, while a county the size of Dublin (circa 1.2m) produces a number less than that for Leinster. But then we all innately know Cork is the greatest county in Ireland. Now that Dave is a fact, not an opinion! :lol:
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Re: The other semi

Postby The Doc » April 12th, 2017, 4:37 pm

Cor. Ind. wrote:
Loving your backhanded compliments. An okay team that finished 2nd seeds in the group stages, has gotten past last year's T14 champions, and 4 & 2 times HEC winners along the way.

Whatever the motivational stimulus was after the sudden, tragic loss of Foley, it can only take you so far. If it was only that we would have hit a massive lull by now.

Your focus on our "avant-garde application of foreign player rules" is worth investigating. Half of the famed 'terrible ten' have played barely a minute of 1st team rugby this season and some not a minute at all: Griesel, Chisholm, Toma, Deysel, Du Toit.
Of the remaining 5, 3 (Rhys, TB, Kleyn) are Nucifora sanctioned projects who will all become IQ in the next two years. Of the remaining two, one is a medical joker (Jaco) and the other was our big ticket acquisition (Saili) to help push season ticket sales, a la James Lowe.

A far better comparison between Munster & Leinster is to look at our use of resources in the recent ERC QF. There we used 2 pps and 2 niqs, while you used 1 pp and 3 niqs - how truly avant-garde...Take it away Derick Bailey!

What really amazes me though is that a county the size of Cork (less than 200k) can produce 11 players in Munster's 23, while a county the size of Dublin (circa 1.2m) produces a number less than that for Leinster. But then we all innately know Cork is the greatest county in Ireland. Now that Dave is a fact, not an opinion! :lol:


I feel a slippery slope coming and another locked thread - let's leave the NIQ debate for the pub :D
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Re: The other semi

Postby Lar » April 12th, 2017, 5:06 pm

The Doc wrote:I feel a slippery slope coming and another locked thread - let's leave the NIQ debate for the pub :D


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Re: The other semi

Postby FLIP » April 12th, 2017, 5:07 pm

The Doc wrote:
Cor. Ind. wrote:
Loving your backhanded compliments. An okay team that finished 2nd seeds in the group stages, has gotten past last year's T14 champions, and 4 & 2 times HEC winners along the way.

Whatever the motivational stimulus was after the sudden, tragic loss of Foley, it can only take you so far. If it was only that we would have hit a massive lull by now.

Your focus on our "avant-garde application of foreign player rules" is worth investigating. Half of the famed 'terrible ten' have played barely a minute of 1st team rugby this season and some not a minute at all: Griesel, Chisholm, Toma, Deysel, Du Toit.
Of the remaining 5, 3 (Rhys, TB, Kleyn) are Nucifora sanctioned projects who will all become IQ in the next two years. Of the remaining two, one is a medical joker (Jaco) and the other was our big ticket acquisition (Saili) to help push season ticket sales, a la James Lowe.

A far better comparison between Munster & Leinster is to look at our use of resources in the recent ERC QF. There we used 2 pps and 2 niqs, while you used 1 pp and 3 niqs - how truly avant-garde...Take it away Derick Bailey!

What really amazes me though is that a county the size of Cork (less than 200k) can produce 11 players in Munster's 23, while a county the size of Dublin (circa 1.2m) produces a number less than that for Leinster. But then we all innately know Cork is the greatest county in Ireland. Now that Dave is a fact, not an opinion! :lol:


I feel a slippery slope coming and another locked thread - let's leave the NIQ debate for the pub :D


The Munster posters wouldn't get kicked out come closing time at 11 like the rest of us though.
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Re: The other semi

Postby paddyor » April 12th, 2017, 5:15 pm

Golf Man wrote:
boosted by .. an avant-garde application of the foreign player rules
- clearly not a fact - Leinster are pretty much reliant as Munster on NIQs

No we're not. NIQs in Munster have significantly more gametime in minutes accross all 3 competions (Munster have also made it to the final of the B&I cup)than their equivalents in Leinster.Go ahead and check.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
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Re: The other semi

Postby Xanthippe » April 12th, 2017, 7:49 pm

ERCC games and minutes this season

Image

Not sure I'd use the word significant to describe the differences
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Re: The other semi

Postby Golf Man » April 12th, 2017, 7:53 pm

Munster are slightly more dependent but it's a thing of nothing as any troll of stats will prove. Munster have had mo
re guys on the books and there is an argument to be had about that - the contribution- negligible difference

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Re: The other semi

Postby fourthirtythree » April 12th, 2017, 7:57 pm

One third higher. Plus two starters v one.
Plus Kirchner has his games through injury, he doesn't make the Pro 12 23 with a reasonably clean bill of health.

Not sure how you would define significant that that doesn't meet it.
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Re: The other semi

Postby paddyor » April 12th, 2017, 9:33 pm

Xanthippe wrote:ERCC games and minutes this season

Image

Not sure I'd use the word significant to describe the differences

The entire season? Here's what I got

Kleyn 599
Marshall 637
Sailli 578
Taute 1428
Deysel 60
Bleyendaal 1480
Toma (A) 254
Chisholm (A) 20
Greisel 6
Du Toit 148
Total 5210

Kirchner 1327
Nacsewa 1338
JGP 910
Triggs 658
Total 4233

They don't give mins palyed for the A side on Leinsters site. IIRC Triggs started at least 1 game in the B&I. Can't get anything on Greisel either other than what I saw on Ultimate rugby. Toma is 240 for the A side but has been an unused sub at least twice. From glancing thru ultimate rugby to get du Toits minutes, they had a t least 4 in most squads thru the middle part of the season (even got it up to 6 vs Connacht).
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: The other semi

Postby Golf Man » April 12th, 2017, 10:03 pm

This is getting embarassing

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Re: The other semi

Postby Xanthippe » April 13th, 2017, 12:37 am

paddyor wrote:
Xanthippe wrote:ERCC games and minutes this season

Image

Not sure I'd use the word significant to describe the differences

The entire season? Here's what I got

Kleyn 599
Marshall 637
Sailli 578
Taute 1428
Deysel 60
Bleyendaal 1480
Toma (A) 254
Chisholm (A) 20
Greisel 6
Du Toit 148
Total 5210

Kirchner 1327
Nacsewa 1338
JGP 910
Triggs 658
Total 4233

They don't give mins palyed for the A side on Leinsters site. IIRC Triggs started at least 1 game in the B&I. Can't get anything on Greisel either other than what I saw on Ultimate rugby. Toma is 240 for the A side but has been an unused sub at least twice. From glancing thru ultimate rugby to get du Toits minutes, they had a t least 4 in most squads thru the middle part of the season (even got it up to 6 vs Connacht).


But this thread is not about the entire season it's about the ERCC so those are the stats I used.
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Re: The other semi

Postby Golf Man » April 13th, 2017, 7:49 am

paddyor wrote:
Xanthippe wrote:ERCC games and minutes this season

Image

Not sure I'd use the word significant to describe the differences

The entire season? Here's what I got

Kleyn 599
Marshall 637
Sailli 578
Taute 1428
Deysel 60
Bleyendaal 1480
Toma (A) 254
Chisholm (A) 20
Greisel 6
Du Toit 148
Total 5210

Kirchner 1327
Nacsewa 1338
JGP 910
Triggs 658
Total 4233

They don't give mins palyed for the A side on Leinsters site. IIRC Triggs started at least 1 game in the B&I. Can't get anything on Greisel either other than what I saw on Ultimate rugby. Toma is 240 for the A side but has been an unused sub at least twice. From glancing thru ultimate rugby to get du Toits minutes, they had a t least 4 in most squads thru the middle part of the season (even got it up to 6 vs Connacht).


You need to let this go - using your figures above Munsters game time is 16.1% taken by NIQs, Leinsters is 13.6%, which correlates almost exact;ly with starts/total ppearances/etc All you are doing is backing up that Munster are slightly more reliant on NIQs than Leinster. The fact that Leinster have better local depth than Munster, contributing to Munster having a slightly more reliance on NIQs shoudl surprise no one

We should be focusing on the fact that Munster and Leinster won their qurterfinals with squads that were 83% IQ and 72% home grown - thats the impressive stat (and again there s neglibile difference between the two)
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