Saracens V Clermont Edinburgh

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I love watching Clermont play and their fans are fantastic so I've a soft spot for them. I don't think they bottled yesterday like they did in previous finals though, I just don't think they're as good as they were and it showed. Fofana and Nakitaci were big losses but they were just on the back foot for most of the game and could do very little about it. The two trys they scored were very much against the run of play at the time (second one is genuinely one of the best I've ever seen) but I felt like they were treading water for a lot of the game. It just made me frustrated with our slow start a few weeks ago, we really should have taken them.

I don't even think Saracens were anywhere near their best yesterday. They missed quite a few tackles and weren't as clinical as usual. Itoje was generally brilliant but I noticed him miss at least three tackles, could count against him next month. Farrell and Billy Vunipola were superb though, really top class. Don't get me wrong, the systems they have are fantastic and everyone plays their part really well but so much of the team is quite average. I wonder if people will remember Koch, Rhodes, Wray, Wigglesworth, Bosch, and Wyles in 3-5 years time? IMO their future success depends on whether or not they try to improve upon those guys and how well it goes. That core group of English guys (their Lions) guarantees that they'll have lots more success over the next 5 years or so but if they manage to upgrade elsewhere in the slightest then they should really dominate. I could see them winning at least 2 of the next 5.

[wixfjord]

I love watching Clermont play and their fans are fantastic so I've a soft spot for them. I don't think they bottled yesterday like they did in previous finals though, I just don't think they're as good as they were and it showed. Fofana and Nakitaci were big losses but they were just on the back foot for most of the game and could do very little about it. The two trys they scored were very much against the run of play at the time (second one is genuinely one of the best I've ever seen) but I felt like they were treading water for a lot of the game. It just made me frustrated with our slow start a few weeks ago, we really should have taken them.

I don't even think Saracens were anywhere near their best yesterday. They missed quite a few tackles and weren't as clinical as usual. Itoje was generally brilliant but I noticed him miss at least three tackles, could count against him next month. Farrell and Billy Vunipola were superb though, really top class. Don't get me wrong, the systems they have are fantastic and everyone plays their part really well but so much of the team is quite average. I wonder if people will remember Koch, Rhodes, Wray, Wigglesworth, Bosch, and Wyles in 3-5 years time? IMO their future success depends on whether or not they try to improve upon those guys and how well it goes. That core group of English guys (their Lions) guarantees that they'll have lots more success over the next 5 years or so but if they manage to upgrade elsewhere in the slightest then they should really dominate. I could see them winning at least 2 of the next 5.

All of those guys fit brilliantly into the system though and are good quality Euro players if not test players.

Rhodes, Wigglesworth and Koch in particular are very good players.

The average age of that pack yesterday must've been around 24/25 and with guys like Williams, Earle, Skelton, Clark and Tolofua to come in they'll be stronger on paper next year too.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

That's what I'm saying...

They'll be successful regardless but they won't stand still and will try and improve upon some of those guys. How long will some of them keep up that form? Will bigger names be able to fit into the system as well as them? Think you've missed my point, I'm not questioning how good they are, just curious as to just how successful they can be over the next five years or so. Like I said, with the current squad I could see them winning at keast two of the next European cups, with a couple of upgrades it could be even more.

[wixfjord]

That's what I'm saying...

They'll be successful regardless but they won't stand still and will try and improve upon some of those guys. How long will some of them keep up that form? Will bigger names be able to fit into the system as well as them? Think you've missed my point, I'm not questioning how good they are, just curious as to just how successful they can be over the next five years or so. Like I said, with the current squad I could see them winning at keast two of the next European cups, with a couple of upgrades it could be even more.

No, I didn't!

You said most of the team is 'quite average'. I disputed that.

Then I agreed with what you referred to about them dominating in the future.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Don't get me wrong, the systems they have are fantastic and everyone plays their part really well but so much of the team is quite average. I wonder if people will remember Koch, Rhodes, Wray, Wigglesworth, Bosch, and Wyles in 3-5 years time?

Either you missed the first part of that (which might be they case given what you said about them fitting the system) or I wasn't clear enough in what I was saying. Individually some of them are nothing special, but fit the system brilliantly, not that they're successful in spite of them.

[wixfjord]

Don't get me wrong, the systems they have are fantastic and everyone plays their part really well but so much of the team is quite average. I wonder if people will remember Koch, Rhodes, Wray, Wigglesworth, Bosch, and Wyles in 3-5 years time?

Either you missed the first part of that (which might be they case given what you said about them fitting the system) or I wasn't clear enough in what I was saying. Individually some of them are nothing special, but fit the system brilliantly, not that they're successful in spite of them.

Nope, I didn't miss any of it, I just don't agree that 'so much of the team is quite average'.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Rhodes and Wray not capped, Wigglesworth not exactly an England regular, Wyles hardly top class, Koch nowhere near as good as someone like Furlong...they're not that great individually. No point arguing though, I was complimenting their systems, not saying those players weren't up to it.

[wixfjord]

Rhodes and Wray not capped, Wigglesworth not exactly an England regular, Wyles hardly top class, Koch nowhere near as good as someone like Furlong...they're not that great individually. No point arguing though, I was complimenting their systems, not saying those players weren't up to it.

Rhodes and Wigglesworth are two quality players and have been very good for Sarries all year.
Koch has 9 caps for SAF and is a good test TH.
Wyles is USA captain, has 20 Euro tries and would be behind Maitland anyway.
Wray is probably the only one of those you could call 'quite average' and even he has over 100 Sarries caps and is keeping Burger out of the side.
Bosch meanwhile has just been voted fan's POTY and has 50 Argie caps.

Not exactly mugs!

[leinsterforever]

Rhodes and Wray not capped, Wigglesworth not exactly an England regular, Wyles hardly top class, Koch nowhere near as good as someone like Furlong...they're not that great individually. No point arguing though, I was complimenting their systems, not saying those players weren't up to it.

Rhodes and Wigglesworth are two quality players and have been very good for Sarries all year.
Koch has 9 caps for SAF and is a good test TH.
Wyles is USA captain, has 20 Euro tries and would be behind Maitland anyway.
Wray is probably the only one of those you could call 'quite average' and even he has over 100 Sarries caps and is keeping Burger out of the side.
Bosch meanwhile has just been voted fan's POTY and has 50 Argie caps.

Not exactly mugs!

But a lot of the success those players have had is since they joined Saracens. Goode is second-choice for England. Ashton hasn't featuring internationally for quite some time. Maitland isn't really first-choice for Scotland anymore. Barritt and Wigglesworth were bit-part internationals. They found Duncan Taylor in the Championship. I'd never heard of Rhodes until he came to prominence with Sarries.

I mean, if the likes of Barritt and Wyles played for one of the provinces we'd probably have fans complaining that they're not good enough to win the European Cup with

George, Itoje, Kruis and Farrell are all top-class, but were developed in-house as far as I know.

What they've done in terms of building a unit from players who weren't superstars elsewhere is remarkable and highly commendable.

[Dave Cahill]

Ah Chris Wyles is a deadly player and I've never understood why Wigglesworth wasn't selected more often for England - playing for Sale probably didn't help.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Rhodes and Wray not capped, Wigglesworth not exactly an England regular, Wyles hardly top class, Koch nowhere near as good as someone like Furlong...they're not that great individually. No point arguing though, I was complimenting their systems, not saying those players weren't up to it.

Rhodes and Wigglesworth are two quality players and have been very good for Sarries all year.
Koch has 9 caps for SAF and is a good test TH.
Wyles is USA captain, has 20 Euro tries and would be behind Maitland anyway.
Wray is probably the only one of those you could call 'quite average' and even he has over 100 Sarries caps and is keeping Burger out of the side.
Bosch meanwhile has just been voted fan's POTY and has 50 Argie caps.

Not exactly mugs!

Rhodes are Wigglesworth are good players who play brilliantly in the system they have...and there are loads of players in Europe that you'd pick ahead of them if you had the choice. Same goes for Koch, Wyles, Wray and Bosch.

That's no criticism of them...I don't know why you can't grasp that..."no mugs" FFS, thats being deliberatey OTT. I said that they play their parts really well and that I think this squad could win at least another two of the next five European cups, how on earth does that lead to you saying that after everything I've said? Because I said they were average? Yeah, compared to their teammates who are touring with the lions or playing regular international rugby they are. And compared to other players playing in Europe who are also better them they are average yeah. Doesn't mean they're mugs, but then I never said it did. You've decided I think they're sh!t and are sticking to your guns no matter what else I've said.

[wixfjord]

thats being deliberately OTT.

...

You've decided I think they're sh!t and are sticking to your guns no matter what else I've said.

Listen, I took issue with you saying a group of guys including multiple established test players many of whom have been at the top of Europe for a few years are 'quite average'. That's all.

No need for all the sass

[neiliog93]

The players discussed above are good club players, some competitive at international level, but nowhere near world class in the way that the Vunipolas, Itojé, Kruis, Farrell etc are. They're still 'good' players obviously. But man-for-man, Clermont arguably have more quality and strength in depth, and yet Saracens were comprehensively the better team. Fair play to them for having such a bond, team ethos, coaching quality and organisation.

[simonokeeffe]

Rhodes could very well end up being a residency qualified player for England
Kock has 9 caps for the Boks in an area where they are actually decent/its hard to get into the team
Wigglesworth has 27 England caps
Wyles is American but played 200 caps for Sarries
Bosch has 39 caps for Argentina

Theyre elite journeymen at worst

[artaneboy]

Obviously (well to me anyway) the only judgement that matters is that they are a team without any glaring weaknesses and with exceptional players in key positions that fit their game strategies. Clermont don't have that balance of utility and brilliance tied to a coherent tactical plan.

Incidents the knock on from the restart after their 'wonder try' was instructive. Parra and the flanker both looking to take ball and the latter probably pumped from his great role in the score spills it. It could happen any team- but less likely a Saracens with their level of organisation and sound coaching.


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[kermischocolate]

Isn't what's trying to be said that Saracens are greater than than the sum of their parts? They don't have that many obvious stand out individual players but put them together and they are extremely difficult to beat in the games that matter.

I think Clermont threw everything at them but were always trying to sneak a win rather than being the better team (if that makes sense). It always felt like Saracens would keep coming back. Although had Parra stayed on and made the kick to be back to one score become with 10mins to go.....

[artaneboy]

Isn't what's trying to be said that Saracens are greater than than the sum of their parts? They don't have that many obvious stand out individual players but put them together and they are extremely difficult to beat in the games that matter.

I think Clermont threw everything at them but were always trying to sneak a win rather than being the better team (if that makes sense). It always felt like Saracens would keep coming back. Although had Parra stayed on and made the kick to be back to one score become with 10mins to go.....

Yes- it makes sense. Actually Saracens were not even at their best on Saturday. It would have been daylight robbery, but if Clermont could have got ahead in the last quarter, it would have been interesting.


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[VGE]

Looked like all five of Sarries fans made the trip up, great support for that team of local home grown talent, oh wait....

Remind us of how many homegrown players were in the that Clermont team...one or two was it?

You should learn to count before posting.


Au revoir.

[VGE]

Its easy to be nice to Clermont - they best they will ever really achieve is to stop other teams winning something, they'll never really threaten the engravers themselves. 30 finals, 23 losses. They have a far bigger budget than Toulon or Saracens but that seems to get ignored, not because they don't try to buy success, but because they are just so bad at it. People patronise CA more than we patronise Connacht, and thats saying something.

Perhaps if their fans were less willing to accept this and instead of following the club through thin and thin actually made it clear that being plucky losers is no longer acceptable they might progress. But they won't.

Oooh you contrarian bastid!

The kind of people who like Clermont are the kind of people for whom Ringo is their favourite Beatle. Non-threatening, good to laugh at, gets the drinks in, alway up for anything. Relatively mediocre wife beating musician, but never mind that, Thomas the Tank Engine!

Sorry guy. I know I am not playing home, but you'd better stop talking about Clermont. You're just ridiculous. Sorry but my bad english doesn't allow me to be clearer.


Au revoir.

[Dave Cahill]

Sorry guy. I know I am not playing home, but you'd better stop talking about Clermont. You're just ridiculous. Sorry but my bad english doesn't allow me to be clearer.


Au revoir.

Your players are never going to fear losing because you make it easy and acceptable for them. We used to be like that too until Michael Cheika arrived. Aurelian Rougerie finishes his career with fewer achievements than Ian Dowling and that is a travesty. Everyone loves Clermont, no one loves Saracens but the reality is that that is because no one fears Clermont, everyone fears Saracens.

Looked like all five of Sarries fans made the trip up, great support for that team of local home grown talent, oh wait....

Remind us of how many homegrown players were in the that Clermont team...one or two was it?

You should learn to count before posting.


Au revoir.

Your 15 that started the final
15. South Africa
14. England
13. Clermont
12. Toulouse
11. England
10. UBB?
9. Bourgoin

8. Kiwi
7. Fiji
6. Brive
5. Brive
4. Clermont
3. Georgia
2. Stade Francais
1. Clermont


So you got me there, when I said one or two I was wrong.

There were three.

You put the Lisbon Lions to shame alright.