Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

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Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby backrower8 » May 22nd, 2017, 1:04 pm

What is it about World Rugby that the laws of the game are being ignored?

- last foot at rucks, this is the biggest killer of spaceand attractive rugby in our sport. The touch judges should pile in with early calls for offside early in a game
- forward passes (accept it is hard the way the game is played these days)
- players diving off feet at breakdown
- crooked into the lineout
- I accept the scrum is all but lost but the referees need to stop it being a piss take, they will be rolling it to the number 8's feet next!
- Players in front of the kicker at restarts, this is never called back
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby ormond lad » May 22nd, 2017, 1:28 pm

backrower8 wrote:What is it about World Rugby that the laws of the game are being ignored?

- last foot at rucks, this is the biggest killer of spaceand attractive rugby in our sport. The touch judges should pile in with early calls for offside early in a game
- forward passes (accept it is hard the way the game is played these days)
- players diving off feet at breakdown
- crooked into the lineout
- I accept the scrum is all but lost but the referees need to stop it being a piss take, they will be rolling it to the number 8's feet next!
- Players in front of the kicker at restarts, this is never called back
The assistant referees are constantly coming in with calls to ref about offsides but only when its material to the play. If outside centre is offside at breakdown but ball goes other side then no need to call for a penalty as the offside isnt material.
Last foot. No need at times.
Diving off feet isnt ignored just depends on each incident.
Scrum is far from "all but lost". What do you want refs to do about it?
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby Dave Cahill » May 22nd, 2017, 1:34 pm

Also, most people think that a forward pass is a pass that results in the ball going forward. It isn't, the ball actually goes forward from a significant number of passes. There is nothing in the laws to prohibit the ball going forward from a pass. A forward pass is a pass that propels the ball forward -
i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move towards the opposing team’s dead ball line
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby FLIP » May 22nd, 2017, 2:41 pm

ormond lad wrote:Scrum is far from "all but lost". What do you want refs to do about it?


Actually understand it. You can tell that all professional referees haven't been anywhere near a front row apart from at a One Direction concert.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby ormond lad » May 22nd, 2017, 2:53 pm

FLIP wrote:
ormond lad wrote:Scrum is far from "all but lost". What do you want refs to do about it?


Actually understand it. You can tell that all professional referees haven't been anywhere near a front row apart from at a One Direction concert.
How do you propose they do that and you dont need ever have been anywhere near playing in front row to understand it or ref it
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby FLIP » May 22nd, 2017, 4:24 pm

ormond lad wrote:you dont need ever have been anywhere near playing in front row to understand it or ref it


It helps. It's telling how much this helps, or how much it hurts not having experienced it, when you see a match refereed by Glen Jackson (ex number 10).

ormond lad wrote:How do you propose they do that..


Firstly, bindings tell a lot about how a scrum is going to go. Even the worlds best props struggle to deal with an opponent dragging them down by their elbow and a referee who doesn't care.

Secondly, understand cause and effect - understand the physics involved when two lots of <900kg weights smash into each other. A scrum standing up will have both players forming a peak if it's just because of misdirected effort. A scrum where props/hookers are being scrummed against at chest height is clearly popping up. Equally a player landing face first on the deck is because of a misdeed - a player ending up with his whole body on the ground is because of a slip. These principles and more are really simple to work out if you understand physics and actually watch scrums with a critical eye instead of blindly believing whatever commentator/instructor tells you what is occurring.

Thirdly, stop believing the myth of the dark arts. It's not hard, it's not difficult, and with a bit of effort referees can cut through the nonsense if they choose to. They simply don't because very few tight five forwards end up refereeing, as that's the domain of those in the back line, and see refereeing as a necessary evil as opposed to a vital part of the game.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby ormond lad » May 22nd, 2017, 5:33 pm

FLIP wrote:
ormond lad wrote:you dont need ever have been anywhere near playing in front row to understand it or ref it


It helps. It's telling how much this helps, or how much it hurts not having experienced it, when you see a match refereed by Glen Jackson (ex number 10).

ormond lad wrote:How do you propose they do that..


Firstly, bindings tell a lot about how a scrum is going to go. Even the worlds best props struggle to deal with an opponent dragging them down by their elbow and a referee who doesn't care.

Secondly, understand cause and effect - understand the physics involved when two lots of <900kg weights smash into each other. A scrum standing up will have both players forming a peak if it's just because of misdirected effort. A scrum where props/hookers are being scrummed against at chest height is clearly popping up. Equally a player landing face first on the deck is because of a misdeed - a player ending up with his whole body on the ground is because of a slip. These principles and more are really simple to work out if you understand physics and actually watch scrums with a critical eye instead of blindly believing whatever commentator/instructor tells you what is occurring.

Thirdly, stop believing the myth of the dark arts. It's not hard, it's not difficult, and with a bit of effort referees can cut through the nonsense if they choose to. They simply don't because very few tight five forwards end up refereeing, as that's the domain of those in the back line, and see refereeing as a necessary evil as opposed to a vital part of the game.
It may help but we have virtually no refs at the elite levels who will have direct experience of scrummaging

Refs dont believe in any myth about dark arts. We are taught to look for certain things and if some refs dont its nothing to do with them not having played rugby as a front 5 forward its they either dont need to or dont feel its necessary to sanction.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby neiliog93 » May 22nd, 2017, 5:54 pm

The two biggest problems in rugby refereeing at the moment are the offside line and the holding on penalty. The vast majority of 'rush' defences are actually consistently 2 metres offside, which shuts down space for the attacking side and incentivises kicking the ball away. They need to get very strict on offsides as it's wrecking the game.

The second problem is the holding on penalty.

i)If a short fatty like Armitage gets over the ball, even with his knees basically on the ground (i.e not supporting his own bodyweight) too many refs are blowing for penalties.

ii) Equally, another trick I've seen from defending sides lately is for the tackler to get out of the way of the ball at the ruck (and therefore avoid getting pinged for not rolling away) BUT to stay in the way of the general ruck area, thus blocking the attacking team's forwards from effecting a proper clearout of a second player from the defending team, i.e the jackler. Essentially, the tackler does not block the ball from being recycled, but he does block the attacking team's players from getting to the jackler. The result is a bullshit holding on penalty in favour of the defending team. Scarlets did this a couple of times to us at the weekend.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby neiliog93 » May 22nd, 2017, 5:59 pm

Another penalty negatively affecting attacking sides is the 'going off your feet' at the ruck penalty. Now, sometimes this is legitimate. In other cases, a player from the defending team will approach the ruck as if he is going to jackal for the ball, and then suddenly step back at the last minute. A player from the attacking team, anticipating the jackal attempt, approached the ruck at speed, only for the defending team's player to step back at the last second, causing the attacking team's player to fall over instead of hitting into the would-be jackler. This cynical ploy from defending teams gets rewarded as the attacking player is pinged for going off his feet, despite it being, a) accidental and, b) not having prevented a competition for the ball at the ruck.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby kermischocolate » May 22nd, 2017, 6:03 pm

backrower8 wrote:What is it about World Rugby that the laws of the game are being ignored?

- last foot at rucks, this is the biggest killer of spaceand attractive rugby in our sport. The touch judges should pile in with early calls for offside early in a game
- forward passes (accept it is hard the way the game is played these days)
- players diving off feet at breakdown
- crooked into the lineout
- I accept the scrum is all but lost but the referees need to stop it being a piss take, they will be rolling it to the number 8's feet next!
- Players in front of the kicker at restarts, this is never called back


Couldn't agree more.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby ormond lad » May 22nd, 2017, 7:09 pm

neiliog93 wrote:The two biggest problems in rugby refereeing at the moment are the offside line and the holding on penalty. The vast majority of 'rush' defences are actually consistently 2 metres offside, which shuts down space for the attacking side and incentivises kicking the ball away. They need to get very strict on offsides as it's wrecking the game.

The second problem is the holding on penalty.

i)If a short fatty like Armitage gets over the ball, even with his knees basically on the ground (i.e not supporting his own bodyweight) too many refs are blowing for penalties.

ii) Equally, another trick I've seen from defending sides lately is for the tackler to get out of the way of the ball at the ruck (and therefore avoid getting pinged for not rolling away) BUT to stay in the way of the general ruck area, thus blocking the attacking team's forwards from effecting a proper clearout of a second player from the defending team, i.e the jackler. Essentially, the tackler does not block the ball from being recycled, but he does block the attacking team's players from getting to the jackler. The result is a bullshit holding on penalty in favour of the defending team. Scarlets did this a couple of times to us at the weekend.
Defences arent 2metres offside and any that are offside in places will be let off it its immaterial to the game.
And referee will call tackler/tackle assist to roll. If they get in path of arriving players they can be sanctioned. All depends on speed of arriving players and how quick player gets out of tackle area.
I dont think there is too much of an issue in games with tacklers/defenders seeking turnovers with them not supporting their own weight. Certainly not to stage where referees need to change anything
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby FLIP » May 22nd, 2017, 9:07 pm

You can say all you want but the evidence is there in plan sight every weekend. Referees at the top level are of a poor standard at best and as professionals should do better and face criticism for their failings.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby leinsterforever » May 22nd, 2017, 9:39 pm

Are teams actually offside, or do they just look offside because they're getting good linespeed? More often than not, I'd say it's the latter
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby ormond lad » May 22nd, 2017, 9:44 pm

FLIP wrote:You can say all you want but the evidence is there in plan sight every weekend. Referees at the top level are of a poor standard at best and as professionals should do better and face criticism for their failings.
Theyre not poor standard though if you want improvements what do you want to happen for improvements to occur and the refs do face criticism and analysis for their game management from their assessors and managers
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby FLIP » May 22nd, 2017, 10:29 pm

ormond lad wrote:
FLIP wrote:You can say all you want but the evidence is there in plan sight every weekend. Referees at the top level are of a poor standard at best and as professionals should do better and face criticism for their failings.
Theyre not poor standard though if you want improvements what do you want to happen for improvements to occur and the refs do face criticism and analysis for their game management from their assessors and managers


For them to do their jobs without bias or incompetence. For that to happen the whole process needs to be made transparent and open instead of behind closed doors back slapping and looking out for their own, hiding behind the aspect of respect for referees. Plenty of respect from me for those who give up their time for nothing, but the pros need to face the music.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby ormond lad » May 22nd, 2017, 11:40 pm

FLIP wrote:
ormond lad wrote:
FLIP wrote:You can say all you want but the evidence is there in plan sight every weekend. Referees at the top level are of a poor standard at best and as professionals should do better and face criticism for their failings.
Theyre not poor standard though if you want improvements what do you want to happen for improvements to occur and the refs do face criticism and analysis for their game management from their assessors and managers


For them to do their jobs without bias or incompetence. For that to happen the whole process needs to be made transparent and open instead of behind closed doors back slapping and looking out for their own, hiding behind the aspect of respect for referees. Plenty of respect from me for those who give up their time for nothing, but the pros need to face the music.
The refereeing assessment process is transparent and open and there isnt any hiding behind the respect idea.
In no way should a referees assessment report be made public.
Referees certainly face criticism through media and through their assessors/match commissioners/competition managers.
In what way do you want the process "to be made transparent and open"? What do you want to happen for this to occur?
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby neiliog93 » May 23rd, 2017, 1:57 am

leinsterforever wrote:Are teams actually offside, or do they just look offside because they're getting good linespeed? More often than not, I'd say it's the latter


No, it's not. I check for it fairly obsessively every game, watching the defence. They're offside more often than not.

I understand that players who don't roll away and thus block the clearing out of the jackler CAN be sanctioned, but very often they're not.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby Dexter » May 23rd, 2017, 11:23 am

Are players generally behind the hindmost foot though? Maybe it's just my perception but a lot of the time they seem to be in the space between the offside line and the ball.
If that's the case a stricter approach to applying the offside law would probably negate the need to tinker with any other laws. All the space in the game is being eaten up.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby neiliog93 » May 23rd, 2017, 1:01 pm

Dexter wrote:Are players generally behind the hindmost foot though? Maybe it's just my perception but a lot of the time they seem to be in the space between the offside line and the ball.
If that's the case a stricter approach to applying the offside law would probably negate the need to tinker with any other laws. All the space in the game is being eaten up.


Exactly, I agree. Policing the existing laws properly is what's needed, not a rule change.
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Re: Why are rugby's laws being ignored?

Postby FLIP » May 24th, 2017, 10:00 pm

ormond lad wrote:The refereeing assessment process is transparent and open and there isnt any hiding behind the respect idea.
In no way should a referees assessment report be made public.
Referees certainly face criticism through media and through their assessors/match commissioners/competition managers.
In what way do you want the process "to be made transparent and open"? What do you want to happen for this to occur?


Why not? Given today's corruption regarding the Scarlets red card, all reports and proceedings must be made absolutely public and available for all to see in an easily accessible manner.
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