Ulster 2017 - 2018

[BlueBlue]

Re Anscomeb there was some off field stuff too apparently (which is what made the IRFU step in and get him out the door) but the inital complaint was about training. By the end Muller and Best were running the training sessions.

So ulster under Anscombe for 2 years blaze through the group stages of the European cup, making it to a quarter finals in both years to be defeated twice by the coming force and English champions Saracens, in the 2nd year they only lost 15-17. they win 13 games on the trot, a new club record and make it to the semi's and final of the Pro12 (after toping the Pro12) only to lose to eventual champions, and the most successful team in Celtic league/ pro12 / 14, Leinster. And Anscombe is so bad, so incompetent that two supposed learders of the team who should be behind him every step of the way turn into the teams buddy boys and coach the team, the training ground must of been some laugh, sure it was like being back at school when teacher was away. Anscombe was a good coach who brought success that was building. What would year 3 under Anscomeb have looked like ?

The fact that the IRFU had to step into a falling out that had gone so far that action like that was seen as the only course,is more evidence of a toxic environment where coaches are casualties, not the route cause of the problem.

Did the players have to step in and save Ulster from the incompetent Mark MaCall and McLoughlin ? They were useless too.

[BlueBlue]

Former Ulster coach Mark Anscombe has spoken for the first time of the 'sour taste' left by his axing from the Kingspan top job, blaming 'small-minded individuals' and describing the experience as the ugly side of the game.


https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/spor ... 03384.html

[BlueBlue]

Anscombe really is a curious one, probably one where on the face of it you could say the players wanted a better coach , a Joe type coach, but then on the other hand you could say that Anscombe was building toward something and some players didn't like what that meant for them, they didn't like it and they got rid of him. That's theory, the only facts we have to go on is Anscombes record which was very very good, especially when considered in the context of Ulster achievement. He had already turned Ulster around and the curve was upward. Pro-12, 4th and 1st, a quarter final and final appearance, Europe - Knock out stages 2 years in a row, a very narrow defeat to Saracens 15-17 .

Ulster had given Anscombe a contract extension by 1 year, so he had his 3rd year. Then his ally David Humps went, and without him negative player power was the finish of him. And what came after has been all down hill, no blaze through Pro14 and no knock out stages of Europe. Sounds a lot like Mark MaCall and Brian McLouughlin.

[paddyor]

Re Anscomeb there was some off field stuff too apparently (which is what made the IRFU step in and get him out the door) but the inital complaint was about training. By the end Muller and Best were running the training sessions.

So ulster under Anscombe for 2 years blaze through the group stages of the European cup, making it to a quarter finals in both years to be defeated twice by the coming force and English champions Saracens, in the 2nd year they only lost 15-17. they win 13 games on the trot, a new club record and make it to the semi's and final of the Pro12 (after toping the Pro12) only to lose to eventual champions, and the most successful team in Celtic league/ pro12 / 14, Leinster. And Anscombe is so bad, so incompetent that two supposed learders of the team who should be behind him every step of the way turn into the teams buddy boys and coach the team, the training ground must of been some laugh, sure it was like being back at school when teacher was away. Anscombe was a good coach who brought success that was building. What would year 3 under Anscomeb have looked like ?

The fact that the IRFU had to step into a falling out that had gone so far that action like that was seen as the only course,is more evidence of a toxic environment where coaches are casualties, not the route cause of the problem.

Did the players have to step in and save Ulster from the incompetent Mark MaCall and McLoughlin ? They were useless too.

I'm not repeating what I was told, but if it's true then he had to go. IIRC, itwasn't the most expensive contract termination for the IRFU, make of that what you will.

[OTT]

Ulster would have won that quarter final to against Saracens in '14 if Garces did not send off Payne in the opening minutes. It was the usual case of something being the hot offence at the time and an inconsistent decision costing a team dearly, the following season for instance nearly a carbon copy offence in the Wasps vs Leinster final pool game from the kick off Ashley Johnson takes Dave Kearney out in the air and Garces goes with a yellow, the only differing factor you could say is that Payne had his eyes on the ball the whole time where as Johnson saw Kearney and chose to go through him and put down a marker.

The Payne decision is one of the times I have been most disgusted when not watching a team I support.

But back on topic it is beside the point (imo) if Ulster made bad choices in the past, have you watched them lately? They don't look bothered and we can blame the players for that sure but you cannot sack all the players. For whatever reason whatever Kiss is trying to do nobody seems to be buying it, the players or the fans. He seems like a nice guy but if I was an Ulster fan I would not be buying that they are about to turn a corner, I cannot see how a change is not made sooner then later.

I think they can get a win against La Rochelle who look a bit flaky on the road but would be shocked if they did not then go and get thumped away to Wasps in the last match. That is the way they have been playing.

[blockhead]

Ulster would have won that quarter final to against Saracens in '14 if Garces did not send off Payne in the opening minutes. It was the usual case of something being the hot offence at the time and an inconsistent decision costing a team dearly, the following season for instance nearly a carbon copy offence in the Wasps vs Leinster final pool game from the kick off Ashley Johnson takes Dave Kearney out in the air and Garces goes with a yellow, the only differing factor you could say is that Payne had his eyes on the ball the whole time where as Johnson saw Kearney and chose to go through him and put down a marker.

The Payne decision is one of the times I have been most disgusted when not watching a team I support.

But back on topic it is beside the point (imo) if Ulster made bad choices in the past, have you watched them lately? They don't look bothered and we can blame the players for that sure but you cannot sack all the players. For whatever reason whatever Kiss is trying to do nobody seems to be buying it, the players or the fans. He seems like a nice guy but if I was an Ulster fan I would not be buying that they are about to turn a corner, I cannot see how a change is not made sooner then later.

I think they can get a win against La Rochelle who look a bit flaky on the road but would be shocked if they did not then go and get thumped away to Wasps in the last match. That is the way they have been playing.

Yep, I can see them beating La Rochelle. They'll be inspired and the french could be cowed into submission. And if that does happen then there is no way they'll back it up away to Wasps.

[rooster]

Re Anscomeb there was some off field stuff too apparently (which is what made the IRFU step in and get him out the door) but the inital complaint was about training. By the end Muller and Best were running the training sessions.

So ulster under Anscombe for 2 years blaze through the group stages of the European cup, making it to a quarter finals in both years to be defeated twice by the coming force and English champions Saracens, in the 2nd year they only lost 15-17. they win 13 games on the trot, a new club record and make it to the semi's and final of the Pro12 (after toping the Pro12) only to lose to eventual champions, and the most successful team in Celtic league/ pro12 / 14, Leinster. And Anscombe is so bad, so incompetent that two supposed learders of the team who should be behind him every step of the way turn into the teams buddy boys and coach the team, the training ground must of been some laugh, sure it was like being back at school when teacher was away. Anscombe was a good coach who brought success that was building. What would year 3 under Anscomeb have looked like ?

The fact that the IRFU had to step into a falling out that had gone so far that action like that was seen as the only course,is more evidence of a toxic environment where coaches are casualties, not the route cause of the problem.

Did the players have to step in and save Ulster from the incompetent Mark MaCall and McLoughlin ? They were useless too.

I'm not repeating what I was told, but if it's true then he had to go. IIRC, itwasn't the most expensive contract termination for the IRFU, make of that what you will.

I would say what you were told is correct Paddy, the off field stuff was a big problem.
Suffice to say he had to go.
McLaughlin was a decent coach, knew how to get the best out of a limited squad, yes we fell down badly in the final but there were at least 3 players on the pitch who were no where near fit to start that day and Leinster was always going to be very tough even we had a full fit squad, was a great day out though.

[simonokeeffe]

Sacking Kiss wont solve all the problems but it will help IMO

Would love to see someone try to lead a revolt against Jonno Gibbes, that wouldnt end well for them

[BlueBlue]

I think about 50% of the Ulster players need to be sack, kiss too. Someone needs to go in there who is fully backed by top management and be ruthless in clearing out. The head coach, whoever that is needs to have a clear unwavering vision and if you don't sign up to it, your toast, Rory Best and the lot of them. Ulster fans need to realise that it takes around 3 years for any club to build something, 3 years, maybe 4.

[paddyor]

I think about 50% of the Ulster players need to be sack, kiss too. Someone needs to go in there who is fully backed by top management and be ruthless in clearing out. The head coach, whoever that is needs to have a clear unwavering vision and if you don't sign up to it, your toast, Rory Best and the lot of them. Ulster fans need to realise that it takes around 3 years for any club to build something, 3 years, maybe 4.

Would probably be too much to lose half their squad and stay competitive. Maybe they should burn half the stadium "pour encourager lest autres" or just trash the training grounds instead. That'll show them! Early days, but a solid contender for dumbest post of the year.

If you were paying attention you might have noticed they've already turned over a lot of the weaker players in there squad(Stephenson, McComish) as well as most of the coaching ticket(Doak, Clarke). Their Saffa LHP seems to be a dud and the backrows are made of biscuit though I suppose the latter 2 could come good. They're getting game time for a good few academy forwards at the moment and have Moore and Murphy to arrive next season.

What's really mad is that it looks like rags to riches in the backs. Leaving aside the lads on trial, they'll lose Trimble, Bowe and Piutau next season and possibly Payne. Cave looks to be past it as well. So they've a crisis at centre and no depth in the back 3 even if they get Olding back. The Piutau signing was made at the wrong time and really Logan should've seen the end of the road coming for Bowe and Trimble. So I suppose yeah they're "getting rid" of half their backs anyway.

[Flash Gordon]

Sacking Kiss wont solve all the problems but it will help IMO

Would love to see someone try to lead a revolt against Jonno Gibbes, that wouldnt end well for them

Seems Kiss is a technician rather than a head coach. The issues go deeper at Ulster, they got rid of a coach that got them to a European cup final and had definite forward momentum. They also brought in a new Academy team after Gary Longwell left in 2013 and the replacements on both fronts have been poor. So you have a team that has not been well coached - I think they are technically poor, their skills are poor, their attack has been very easy to defend against and predictable, their forward work has been poor - their scrum went to sh!t until recently and they don't look motivated. Meanwhile, they have an academy that was producing genuine talent - recall the Leinster/Ulster team on the opening day at the Aviva contained Luke Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Iain Henderson and Craig Gilroy. This Academy completely dried up with one or 2 notable exceptions (e.g. Stockdale).

You look at the holistic picture and then you look at Shane "Ulster can be the best rugby club on the planet" Logan and I think you see the problem.

[rooster]

Sacking Kiss wont solve all the problems but it will help IMO

Would love to see someone try to lead a revolt against Jonno Gibbes, that wouldnt end well for them

Seems Kiss is a technician rather than a head coach. The issues go deeper at Ulster, they got rid of a coach that got them to a European cup final and had definite forward momentum. They also brought in a new Academy team after Gary Longwell left in 2013 and the replacements on both fronts have been poor. So you have a team that has not been well coached - I think they are technically poor, their skills are poor, their attack has been very easy to defend against and predictable, their forward work has been poor - their scrum went to sh!t until recently and they don't look motivated. Meanwhile, they have an academy that was producing genuine talent - recall the Leinster/Ulster team on the opening day at the Aviva contained Luke Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Iain Henderson and Craig Gilroy. This Academy completely dried up with one or 2 notable exceptions (e.g. Stockdale).

You look at the holistic picture and then you look at Shane "Ulster can be the best rugby club on the planet" Logan and I think you see the problem.

Overall the Academy has improved from Longwells time the young lads though are just starting to appear now.

[simonokeeffe]

Anyone else taking joy in Leo Cullen doing a better job with young players than Longwell?

[Dave Cahill]

Nah not really, Gary Longwell is a lovely bloke. Its not really comparing like with like, Gary was in charge of the academy, so he was one step down from the senior team and he had to work with fewer and less well formed raw material than, say, Colin McEntee had

[rooster]

Nah not really, Gary Longwell is a lovely bloke. Its not really comparing like with like, Gary was in charge of the academy, so he was one step down from the senior team and he had to work with fewer and less well formed raw material than, say, Colin McEntee had

Our academy made no progress under Longwell

[neiliog93]

I hindsight, should they not have told Ferris and others to put their ego in their pocket and get on with the job when they had the heave against Anscombe? When the team is performing well, you've got to back the coach over players who have (not for the first time) moved against a coach. McCall, Matt Williams (seemingly justified in that case) being other examples.

[Peg Leg]

I hindsight, should they not have told Ferris and others to put their ego in their pocket and get on with the job when they had the heave against Anscombe? When the team is performing well, you've got to back the coach over players who have (not for the first time) moved against a coach. McCall, Matt Williams (seemingly justified in that case) being other examples.

As Paddyor mentions, Anscombe apparently manouvered himself to an untenable position.

[simonokeeffe]

Nah not really, Gary Longwell is a lovely bloke. Its not really comparing like with like, Gary was in charge of the academy, so he was one step down from the senior team and he had to work with fewer and less well formed raw material than, say, Colin McEntee had

Whoosh
Semi obscure reference I made but still, whoosh

[Dave Cahill]

semi obscure?

[paddyor]

I hindsight, should they not have told Ferris and others to put their ego in their pocket and get on with the job when they had the heave against Anscombe? When the team is performing well, you've got to back the coach over players who have (not for the first time) moved against a coach. McCall, Matt Williams (seemingly justified in that case) being other examples.

As Paddyor mentions, Anscombe apparently manouvered himself to an untenable position.

ANd it was the IRFU who did it and they didn't do it at the behest of the players.