Ulster 2017 - 2018

[blockhead]

For many people there were a lot of very unsavoury - and let's face it lurid details

Which details would they be then? Apart from the whatsapp messages which seems to have played no part in their sacking.
Is it threesomes that you have a problem with?
Lack of gender balance maybe?
Sex outside marraige?

[blockhead]

one thing does not mean the other

For all intents and purposes under criminal law, it is.

Not guilty is not the same as innocent, just like not short is not the same as tall

Yes it is.
They walked into court, innocent until proven guilty, nothing changed.

[BlueBlue]

I am happy to agree with PJ's description of the Whatsapp chat given in his undoubtedly sincere public apology as "offensive and degrading", Dave Cahill. You clearly have another view and would be happy to have a participant in such a chat represent you in an Irish jersey. I think differently and I have explained why. Perhaps rather than dismissing an opposing view as "rubbish" you might offer some reasons why you hold your view. That is how debates usually proceed

Well as you are so certain of your own moral rectitude, there’s no point in discussing this with you. How clear and straightforward such complex issues must be for you in that pristine, fully transparent world of yours. No wonder you despise those of us without that clarity of moral vision.

But I’m not going to let you try to depict any of us who have issues with the media and commitariat ‘consensus’ on this as being sympathetic to the behaviour of the men. Thanks for your reminder that we have female relations; because we need that pointed out!

It’s a piece with much of the behaviour of all concerned on the night being questionable, the texts were demeaning- both to the men themselves as well as the women, but they were typical of the braggadocio that takes place in private communications. The revelation (initially as a tawdry legal tactic) of private messages, to justify their retrial in the “Court of Opinion” and the loss of their employment and effective banishment from their country is questionable in the first instance- and totally disproportionate if there was any merit in punishment. The bluster and pearl clutching from the ‘sack them’ brigade is designed to prevent any reasoned and balanced discussion.

So much for the public- but from the IRFU perspective, more than being unfair- it is unsustainable. If we enter a world where private comment can be used to punish you, where do they draw the line? We had Falou getting (rightly) into trouble for rising to a tweet query on his religious attitude to gays- what if another religious Ireland player is recorded expressing- or not challenging similar views, will they be subject to similar employment sanctions? Or do we just decide based on the noise in social media or the concerns of sponsors?


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What a pathetic load of bluster. Put the toys back in the pram, so something has tapped that you don't agree with, the world's gone mad and your the only Shane person.

[BlueBlue]

I applaud the IRFU for the way in which it handled this sordid matter and I am astonished at some of the views expressed here in support of the two who have been dismissed. My only complaint would be in relation to the soft treatment of Gilroy, who should have received a similar fate. The IRFU (and, I would like to think, Ulster) do not want to be associated with people who express such abhorrent sentiments in relation to women and the treatment of women. I know it is the natural instinct of a rugby person to stand by a colleague in times of need ( as in Rugby's impeccable reaction to the sad death of Axel ) but there are times when we have to take a step back and view the full perspective. What was contained in those Whatsapp messages was truly disgusting. Like it or not, those messages have now come into the public domain. Let me ask would those who defend PJ and CO if they would offer support to Ulster players who referred to Catholics as "Taigs" or "Fenian scum"? Would we support any of our own Leinster players if it emerged that they casually used derogatory and highly offensive racist terms in relation to people of different ethnic backgrounds? I should hope not. When players don the green, blue or white jersey, they represent us and I do not want to be represented by players who are happy to use such language indicating utter disrespect for us (yes some of us are women), our daughters, sisters, wives, girlfriends and mothers.

It seems that the players concerned recognise this and have taken the pay off in order to move on. I have no doubt that they have learned from this very painful episode and I hope that they succeed in their careers with their new clubs.

The players concerned created an appalling mess and it appears that they and the IRFU have done a good job in clearing that mess up by the resolution announced yesterday. If, as seems almost certain, termination payments have been agreed, there is no chance of either player challenging the outcome.

Now back to the rugby..........

Sorry, but thats rubbish.

PJs only message on the subject "There was a lot of spit roast last night". Its a leap of Beamonesque proportions to get from that to 'Fenian Scum'.

I don't think it's rubbish, I'm in agreement.
But I'll be considered as part of the Mob, Lynch Brigade, Morally Superior or the other insults thrown out.

I'm also in agreement with enby.

[Logorrhea]

What a pathetic load of bluster. Put the toys back in the pram, so something has tapped that you don't agree with, the world's gone mad and your the only Shane person.

I thought he actually made some good points.

[BlueBlue]

I am happy to agree with PJ's description of the Whatsapp chat given in his undoubtedly sincere public apology as "offensive and degrading", Dave Cahill. You clearly have another view and would be happy to have a participant in such a chat represent you in an Irish jersey. I think differently and I have explained why. Perhaps rather than dismissing an opposing view as "rubbish" you might offer some reasons why you hold your view. That is how debates usually proceed

You attempted to juxtapose a description of a sexual act with a racial or sectarian slur. Two completely and utterly different things. Thats why you were talking rubbish.

New lows

[BlueBlue]

I applaud the IRFU for the way in which it handled this sordid matter and I am astonished at some of the views expressed here in support of the two who have been dismissed. My only complaint would be in relation to the soft treatment of Gilroy, who should have received a similar fate. The IRFU (and, I would like to think, Ulster) do not want to be associated with people who express such abhorrent sentiments in relation to women and to the treatment of women. I know it is the natural instinct of a rugby person to stand by a colleague in times of need ( as in Rugby's impeccable reaction to the sad death of Axel ) but there are times when we have to take a step back and view the full perspective. What was contained in those Whatsapp messages was truly disgusting. Like it or not, those messages have now come into the public domain. Let me ask would those who defend PJ and CO if they would offer support to Ulster players who referred to Catholics as "Taigs" or "Fenian scum"? Would we support any of our own Leinster players if it emerged that they casually used derogatory and highly offensive racist terms in relation to people of different ethnic backgrounds? I should hope not. When players don the green, blue or white jersey, they represent us and I do not want to be represented by players who are happy to use such language indicating utter disrespect for us (yes some of us are women), our daughters, sisters, wives, girlfriends and mothers.

It seems that the players concerned recognise this and have taken the pay off in order to move on. I have no doubt that they have learned from this very painful episode and I hope that they succeed in their careers with their new clubs.

The players concerned created an appalling mess and it appears that they and the IRFU have done a good job in clearing that mess up by the resolution announced yesterday. If, as seems almost certain, termination payments have been agreed, there is no chance of either player challenging the outcome.

Now back to the rugby..........

I think you're probably better off not being a supporter of your province and country then. It's naive to think that that sort of communication isn't common in the jocular private exchanges of rugby players. I'd wager you'd hear worse in most rap music (which Jackson and Gilroy are fans of incidentally)

Did it occur to you that jocular private exchanges amongst rugby players might be the issue?
As for deciding somebody shouldn’t support province or country because they agree with a decision of the governing body of the sport... that’s almost as bad as your effort to absolve the boys because they like rap music.

[artaneboy]

I am happy to agree with PJ's description of the Whatsapp chat given in his undoubtedly sincere public apology as "offensive and degrading", Dave Cahill. You clearly have another view and would be happy to have a participant in such a chat represent you in an Irish jersey. I think differently and I have explained why. Perhaps rather than dismissing an opposing view as "rubbish" you might offer some reasons why you hold your view. That is how debates usually proceed

Well as you are so certain of your own moral rectitude, there’s no point in discussing this with you. How clear and straightforward such complex issues must be for you in that pristine, fully transparent world of yours. No wonder you despise those of us without that clarity of moral vision.

But I’m not going to let you try to depict any of us who have issues with the media and commitariat ‘consensus’ on this as being sympathetic to the behaviour of the men. Thanks for your reminder that we have female relations; because we need that pointed out!

It’s a piece with much of the behaviour of all concerned on the night being questionable, the texts were demeaning- both to the men themselves as well as the women, but they were typical of the braggadocio that takes place in private communications. The revelation (initially as a tawdry legal tactic) of private messages, to justify their retrial in the “Court of Opinion” and the loss of their employment and effective banishment from their country is questionable in the first instance- and totally disproportionate if there was any merit in punishment. The bluster and pearl clutching from the ‘sack them’ brigade is designed to prevent any reasoned and balanced discussion.

So much for the public- but from the IRFU perspective, more than being unfair- it is unsustainable. If we enter a world where private comment can be used to punish you, where do they draw the line? We had Falou getting (rightly) into trouble for rising to a tweet query on his religious attitude to gays- what if another religious Ireland player is recorded expressing- or not challenging similar views, will they be subject to similar employment sanctions? Or do we just decide based on the noise in social media or the concerns of sponsors?


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What a pathetic load of bluster. Put the toys back in the pram, so something has tapped that you don't agree with, the world's gone mad and your the only Shane person.

Jeez! What are you on about- or just on? If you’ve nothing sensible to add, stay in your little blue bubble.


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[BlueBlue]

Did it occur to you that jocular private exchanges amongst rugby players might be the issue?
As for deciding somebody shouldn’t support province or country because they agree with a decision of the governing body of the sport... that’s almost as bad as your effort to absolve the boys because they like rap music.

My point about not being a supporter was in response to the following: "...I do not want to be represented by players who are happy to use such language indicating utter disrespect for us (yes some of us are women), our daughters, sisters, wives, girlfriends and mothers". I think it's almost inevitable that some Leinster and Ireland players have sent messages of a very similar nature. So what are you going to do? You can't demand to see everyone's private messages, and have the individuals whose correspondences are judged inappropriate kicked off the team. If you don't want to be represented by people who express distasteful views in private, then your only option is not following your team.

These messages were private. When you're in private some people say things without thinking. I know I do, stuff I don't even mean half the time. Policing what people say in private is verging on introducing thoughtcrime. Some people are immature, dumb, or use crude or vulgar language. It's a fact of life. The best you can do is get them not to express these views in public. Tell you what, why don't you post up all the private messages you've ever sent so we can all assess and judge them?

The messages aren't private any more. Tell us how the not private messages become private again.

[artaneboy]

Sorry, but thats rubbish.

PJs only message on the subject "There was a lot of spit roast last night". Its a leap of Beamonesque proportions to get from that to 'Fenian Scum'.

I don't think it's rubbish, I'm in agreement.
But I'll be considered as part of the Mob, Lynch Brigade, Morally Superior or the other insults thrown out.

I'm also in agreement with enby.

Envy may be sincere, if too sure of her/ his moral superiority.

But we didn’t need any evidence to know you were part of the mob and lynch brigade. Any mob actually. Fortunately we don’t take you seriously. Run along now...


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[BlueBlue]

The bleeding was girls period, blood stains on underwear and trousers matched and she said herself put knickers in pocket and by the way it was a few spots not the way press are suggesting at all.
This was all mentioned in court but not published by press.

You say that it was her period like that's a fact, when it's not. The medical examiner f**ked up and did not establish the source. But there was a vaginal wall tear. The defence jumped on the chance to create reasonable doubt, that's all they have to do remember.

It's a bite naive of you to present something the defence says as fact.

The Taxi driver said that there was enough blood on her shorts, he noticed as she walked away to check his taxi for soiling, he also said when he was contacted by police that he new what they wanted to talk about. He described her state as hysterical.

Also we've learned since the trial ended that blood was airbrushed off the bed sheets in pictures shown to the jury. Why, is not clear.

I've no wish to revisit the trial, I accept it's conclusion. Although I consider the trial to be one of the biggest jokes in how it was conducted. I'd be embarrassed if that was the Irish judicial system.

My issue is with the players attitudes and behaviour, utter disrespect and disregard for another human being. They used someone like a piece of meat and then laughed about it later. I believe the woman in this trial was credible and believed she was raped. The accused being found not guilty does not mean the accuser agrees, and let's face it, only 3 people actually know for a fact what happened. That these WhatsApp messages were made in the context and in connection with the accusation of rape, a crime takes these comments to another level.

The court found the accused not guilty. The IRFU process in the context of employment law, with legal representation present from both players found the players to be in breach of contract, the contracts were revoked. A nice way of saying sacked. They are gone, fact. Their case, their position as players before the IRFU their employers was untenable. Their position before the public was untenable. Their position before sponsor, untenable. I'm not surprised, I'm not happy. But I am relieved that I won't have to see these 2 boys (not men, they don't deserve to be called men) play for an Irish team.

I'm also prood of the IRFU for it's handling of the situation and for taking the only sensible , but brave decision.

Sorry Rooster, this is not all directed at you, it's just what I needed to say.

[BlueBlue]

I applaud the IRFU for the way in which it handled this sordid matter and I am astonished at some of the views expressed here in support of the two who have been dismissed. My only complaint would be in relation to the soft treatment of Gilroy, who should have received a similar fate. The IRFU (and, I would like to think, Ulster) do not want to be associated with people who express such abhorrent sentiments in relation to women and to the treatment of women. I know it is the natural instinct of a rugby person to stand by a colleague in times of need ( as in Rugby's impeccable reaction to the sad death of Axel ) but there are times when we have to take a step back and view the full perspective. What was contained in those Whatsapp messages was truly disgusting. Like it or not, those messages have now come into the public domain. Let me ask would those who defend PJ and CO if they would offer support to Ulster players who referred to Catholics as "Taigs" or "Fenian scum"? Would we support any of our own Leinster players if it emerged that they casually used derogatory and highly offensive racist terms in relation to people of different ethnic backgrounds? I should hope not. When players don the green, blue or white jersey, they represent us and I do not want to be represented by players who are happy to use such language indicating utter disrespect for us (yes some of us are women), our daughters, sisters, wives, girlfriends and mothers.

It seems that the players concerned recognise this and have taken the pay off in order to move on. I have no doubt that they have learned from this very painful episode and I hope that they succeed in their careers with their new clubs.

The players concerned created an appalling mess and it appears that they and the IRFU have done a good job in clearing that mess up by the resolution announced yesterday. If, as seems almost certain, termination payments have been agreed, there is no chance of either player challenging the outcome.

Now back to the rugby..........

Well said enby.

I'm going to run along now as some childish poster suggested and take your advise and get back to the rugby.

[BlueBlue]

Envy may be sincere, if too sure of her/ his moral superiority.

But we didn’t need any evidence to know you were part of the mob and lynch brigade. Any mob actually. Fortunately we don’t take you seriously. Run along now...


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Artaneboy. Sorry, difficult to understand that, predictive text getting the better of you, I suspect it often does.

[Cantstopfarting]

A then 19 yo girl went home bleeding with a tear in her vagina.

Claims that a fist was thrust into her vagina.

PJ claimed that he didn't have sex with her. But a material witness saw differently and the WhatsApp messages seemed to suggest otherwise.

I don't know about your standards but these things are disturbing and lurid to me.

If it's consenting adults let them do whatever they wish- I have no problem with that.

I do not want to thrash out the trial again. But we all know it was flawed and matters like that don't just go away with business as usual.

[FLIP]

one thing does not mean the other

For all intents and purposes under criminal law, it is.

Not guilty is not the same as innocent, just like not short is not the same as tall

That's your take on it. You'll continue to accept that you're not innocent if you're found not guilty of a similar crime anytime soon then?

[Oldschoolsocks]

Janey Mack, what makes you think I’d ever be in a position to be accused of a similar crime??

Bit strong there now flip.

[FLIP]

Janey Mack, what makes you think I’d ever be in a position to be accused of a similar crime??

Bit strong there now flip.

I don't at all, but your reaction to the idea shows you'd expect the exact same freedoms and rights as these lads are being denied by sections of society and the IRFU.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Janey Mack, what makes you think I’d ever be in a position to be accused of a similar crime??

Bit strong there now flip.

I don't at all, but your reaction to the idea shows you'd expect the exact same freedoms and rights as these lads are being denied by sections of society and the IRFU.

This is quite simple.

A charge was made against these lads.
The police investigated and the authorities found that there was a case to answer.
There was a trial and the lads were found not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the standard for these cases.

This is how the court system works.

[FLIP]

Janey Mack, what makes you think I’d ever be in a position to be accused of a similar crime??

Bit strong there now flip.

I don't at all, but your reaction to the idea shows you'd expect the exact same freedoms and rights as these lads are being denied by sections of society and the IRFU.

This is quite simple.

A charge was made against these lads.
The police investigated and the authorities found that there was a case to answer.
There was a trial and the lads were found not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the standard for these cases.

This is how the court system works.

Yes it is. What's that got to do with your point that they're not innocent just because they're not guilty?

[Oldschoolsocks]

If you choose not to see the difference there’s no point to this conversation. So with all due respect etc... I’ll leave the last word to you.