Ulster 2017 - 2018

[LeRouxIsPHat]

[Ruckedtobits]

His family thought Ulster was a career blackhole.

Was thinking the same thing

Joe has his new forward's coach waiting in the wings if he does end up taking the AB job in the next few years.

Joe's forwards coach for the AB job, if it ever comes up, is VC (Vern Cotter). In NZ the Board select each individual and no Coach gets to choose who he works with. There's consultation of course but that's done years in advance so that every Coach who might ever be considered has a Contract which will automatically facilitate his release, at a maximum of 4 months notice, to take one of the AB jobs (usually three) if it is ever offered.

[bonzo]

A long, at times self indulgent read. Not much in the way of new info, we all know that Humps brought in more NIQ players than are allowed with money he somehow managed to wrangle out of the IRFU, of course there was sort lived success with the purchase of 6 quality to high quality players. And again of course this was a quick fix that covered over the non-functioning academy. This is all known stuff.

As Gordon Darcy put it, a club starts at the academy and finishes with its board, the big question for Ulster is when is their board going to be held to account for failure and when will it be replaced and go about the business of reforming Ulster from the academy up. My guess is never, and the reasons for that are perhaps the crux of the whole problem.

Isn't it the case that Ulster as an organisation are still structured along amateur lines (I know there is still some of this in all province's , but Ulster is the most old fashioned / closest to the amateur model), for example, don't the ex-presidents have a lot of power.

There's no new info. The point of the article is to plot matters which are on the public record, establish a timeline of events and examine causation/correlation between them.

Just stop there Hugo, your self indulgence is there for all to see with your publicly shared blog, podcast and thorough, reasoned responses on this forum. We've seen beneath your thin veil of fandom and recognise now, the painstaking analysis, the hours of research, the sheer expanse of and attention to detail to be nothing more than a series of love letters to your ego.
I hadn't noticed the before, but your subtle craving for recognition and endorsement, now revealed disgusts me.
All of it disgusts me, your patiently waiting for 12 months before you revealed the hidden Brad Thorn scoop that you shared but we all missed, the many many moments friends of mine and I attempted to work out which former player/coach/blazer you are over pints, all of it, disgusting.

Leave Moley alone!! [LOUDLY CRYING FACE]

[simonokeeffe]

Neil Doak is joining Worcester as attack/backs coach under Solomons (BBC)

[sunshiner1]

y simonokeeffe

Neil Doak is joining Worcester as attack/backs coach under Solomons (BBC)

I have no idea if this is a good thing or a bad thing. I've heard Doak being thrashed/prasied in equal measure.

[simonokeeffe]

y simonokeeffe

Neil Doak is joining Worcester as attack/backs coach under Solomons (BBC)

I have no idea if this is a good thing or a bad thing. I've heard Doak being thrashed/prasied in equal measure.

He could be the new Mark McCall. IIRC whilst not being an 80s movie villian like at Sarries the Worcester owner is filthy rich

[darkside lighteside]

Its hard to quantify but I liked the Mole's stuff about the de Ulsterification of the team; Ulster are a bit like France in terms of their culture/identity/nationalism. Dare I say it but they seem much less accepting of non superstar outsiders ESPECIALLY from other provinces

I don't agree with this at all, if I cast my mind back over the last 15 years of supporting Ulster, the NIQs who have been most-loved by Ulster fans have tended not to be the higher profile guys - this is obviously subjective, but the names that come to my mind as crowd favourites are Matt Sexton, Robbie Kempson, Paul Steinmetz, Pedrie Wannenberg, Louis Ludik, Ruan Pienaar, and Johann Muller, and only the last two I would describe as being high profile when they arrived. (This is obviously not to say that the likes of Harrison, Afoa, Piutau et al are 'disliked' just that there seemed to be a real bond with the first bunch). As for guys from other provinces, on the contrary - look at the reaction to O'Connor, Cooney and Timoney to name but 3 - ask Alan how he has found life up north...

I'm not sure that Ulster fans are much different to anyone else - we appreciate seeing guys doing their damnedest, regardless where they're from. For me the desire to 're-Ulsterify' is more about stopping the wasteful and unsustainable practice of using external signings to paper over the cracks in our local player development - it's inefficient and more expensive, and Irish rugby can't afford to take inefficient and expensive options... So I want to see Ulster producing good young players again - but I think there will always be a place for good overseas IQ player research / recruitment for all the provinces, as well as more inter-provincial transfers. A while back I saw on twitter that Fitzgerald had been talking on his podcast about how it was harder for players from other provinces to go to Ulster - he got a bit of pushback, and seemed a bit muddled in some of his responses, but still I think that if this perception exists in rugby it's a real shame. I've been living back here for a few years now, and forget rugby for a second, you meet southerners frequently living and working up here, it's not at all uncommon.

On that front, two players in the Leinster squad jump out at me as being a win-win if they transferred to Ulster, Peter Dooley and Cathal Marsh. I think it's a real shame that a player as good as Dooley is scratching round for games, while we are crying out for a decent loosehead, and Marsh is at best 4th choice at out-half at Leinster, he could be at worst 2nd choice at Ulster. Thoughts?

(I also think the same would be true for one of Deegan/Doris given the age profile of your back row options, and Carberry, but I'll not mention them because it might be controversial )

[simonokeeffe]

Ah here most of them are big names/all blacks/world cup winners etc

We can definitely both agree though that being one of the best performers helps eg Cooney. And coming hrough the academy probably too

But also am referring too his point about the young guys let go eg Annet

Dooley would definitely be a good one on several fronts

[CiaranIrl]

On that front, two players in the Leinster squad jump out at me as being a win-win if they transferred to Ulster, Peter Dooley and Cathal Marsh. I think it's a real shame that a player as good as Dooley is scratching round for games, while we are crying out for a decent loosehead, and Marsh is at best 4th choice at out-half at Leinster, he could be at worst 2nd choice at Ulster. Thoughts?

(I also think the same would be true for one of Deegan/Doris given the age profile of your back row options, and Carberry, but I'll not mention them because it might be controversial )

I totally agree about Dooley & Marsh. I really think Marsh would do well at Ulster and suprise a few people about just how good he is. Dooley more obvious. No chance on the back row front though! With Heaslip retired, Jordi gone and massive question marks about O'Brien's long term future, we're actually going to be under pressure there.

[darkside lighteside]

Ah here most of them are big names/all blacks/world cup winners etc

We can definitely both agree though that being one of the best performers helps eg Cooney. And coming hrough the academy probably too

But also am referring too his point about the young guys let go eg Annet

Dooley would definitely be a good one on several fronts

I actually think on reflection that 'Wannenberg' is the only really big name there

I think on the guys let go, it's very easy to be suckered by hindsight bias - like I've seen a load of people now very smart after the fact saying about how terrible a decision it was to let Farrell go etc etc, actually rewind a couple of years and I'd be surprised if anyone saying that now is on record at the time as saying it was a terrible decision. Ulster were crowded with strong centres, realistically he was going to be down the pecking order for at least a year or two, he was coming back from injury and his form wasn't great, as I recall it pretty much everyone thought it was a good idea, and it's worked out really well for him, and I'm delighted. But it was a reasonable decision at the time by Ulster.

[darkside lighteside]

On that front, two players in the Leinster squad jump out at me as being a win-win if they transferred to Ulster, Peter Dooley and Cathal Marsh. I think it's a real shame that a player as good as Dooley is scratching round for games, while we are crying out for a decent loosehead, and Marsh is at best 4th choice at out-half at Leinster, he could be at worst 2nd choice at Ulster. Thoughts?

(I also think the same would be true for one of Deegan/Doris given the age profile of your back row options, and Carberry, but I'll not mention them because it might be controversial )

I totally agree about Dooley & Marsh. I really think Marsh would do well at Ulster and suprise a few people about just how good he is. Dooley more obvious. No chance on the back row front though! With Heaslip retired, Jordi gone and massive question marks about O'Brien's long term future, we're actually going to be under pressure there.

Yes you're losing a couple but still: Leavy, VDF, O'Brien, Conan, Ruddock, Deegan, Timmins, Murphy (Josh), Connors, Doris is a hell of a slate for next year, and still leaves 5 full internationals plus 2 star U20s vying for 3 starts...

Forgive me indulging myself for a minute, but while everyone is doom and gloom about the fall and fall of Ulster etc etc, if I put on my IRFU hat, and imagine this 23 for Ulster's first Champions Cup match next year:

1. Dooley
2. Best
3. Moore
4. Henderson
5. O'Connor
6. Coetzee
7. Murphy
8. Deegan
9. Cooney
10. Carberry
11. Stockdale
12. McCloskey
13. Marshall
14. Gilroy
15. Ludik

16. Herring
17. McCall
18. Herbst
19. Treadwell
20. Timoney
21. Marshall
22. McPhillips
23. Cave

HC: Lancaster

Now to me, ok you're not getting much off the bench, but that looks pretty transformative - for no big additional outlay, and with the exception of Carberry doesn't even dent Leinster's first choice 23... [and I'm completely ignoring outcomes from the court case] I appreciate that players are people, and can't just be shuffled round like pawns on a chessboard, but IMO these are the kinds of thoughts and conversations the IRFU needs to be having at the moment, with a view to bridging Ulster from the current mess to sustainability and hopefully success in a year or two...

[simonokeeffe]

Good luck getting Moore AND Coetzee both fit for a game

Nice call on Wannenburger btw

Anyone saying Farrell was a bad call is a revisionist idiot. Thats even worse than saying we made a glaring mistake at the time letting Beirne go

[blockhead]

On that front, two players in the Leinster squad jump out at me as being a win-win if they transferred to Ulster, Peter Dooley and Cathal Marsh. I think it's a real shame that a player as good as Dooley is scratching round for games, while we are crying out for a decent loosehead, and Marsh is at best 4th choice at out-half at Leinster, he could be at worst 2nd choice at Ulster. Thoughts?

(I also think the same would be true for one of Deegan/Doris given the age profile of your back row options, and Carberry, but I'll not mention them because it might be controversial )

I totally agree about Dooley & Marsh. I really think Marsh would do well at Ulster and suprise a few people about just how good he is. Dooley more obvious. No chance on the back row front though! With Heaslip retired, Jordi gone and massive question marks about O'Brien's long term future, we're actually going to be under pressure there.

Yes you're losing a couple but still: Leavy, VDF, O'Brien, Conan, Ruddock, Deegan, Timmins, Murphy (Josh), Connors, Doris is a hell of a slate for next year, and still leaves 5 full internationals plus 2 star U20s vying for 3 starts...

Forgive me indulging myself for a minute, but while everyone is doom and gloom about the fall and fall of Ulster etc etc, if I put on my IRFU hat, and imagine this 23 for Ulster's first Champions Cup match next year:

1. Dooley
2. Best
3. Moore
4. Henderson
5. O'Connor
6. Coetzee
7. Murphy
8. Deegan
9. Cooney
10. Carberry
11. Stockdale
12. McCloskey
13. Marshall
14. Gilroy
15. Ludik

16. Herring
17. McCall
18. Herbst
19. Treadwell
20. Timoney
21. Marshall
22. McPhillips
23. Cave

HC: Lancaster

Now to me, ok you're not getting much off the bench, but that looks pretty transformative - for no big additional outlay, and with the exception of Carberry doesn't even dent Leinster's first choice 23... [and I'm completely ignoring outcomes from the court case] I appreciate that players are people, and can't just be shuffled round like pawns on a chessboard, but IMO these are the kinds of thoughts and conversations the IRFU needs to be having at the moment, with a view to bridging Ulster from the current mess to sustainability and hopefully success in a year or two...

8 Leinster guys in that 23. Good Lord!

[mildlyinterested]

On that front, two players in the Leinster squad jump out at me as being a win-win if they transferred to Ulster, Peter Dooley and Cathal Marsh. I think it's a real shame that a player as good as Dooley is scratching round for games, while we are crying out for a decent loosehead, and Marsh is at best 4th choice at out-half at Leinster, he could be at worst 2nd choice at Ulster. Thoughts?

(I also think the same would be true for one of Deegan/Doris given the age profile of your back row options, and Carberry, but I'll not mention them because it might be controversial )

I totally agree about Dooley & Marsh. I really think Marsh would do well at Ulster and suprise a few people about just how good he is. Dooley more obvious. No chance on the back row front though! With Heaslip retired, Jordi gone and massive question marks about O'Brien's long term future, we're actually going to be under pressure there.

Yes you're losing a couple but still: Leavy, VDF, O'Brien, Conan, Ruddock, Deegan, Timmins, Murphy (Josh), Connors, Doris is a hell of a slate for next year, and still leaves 5 full internationals plus 2 star U20s vying for 3 starts...

Forgive me indulging myself for a minute, but while everyone is doom and gloom about the fall and fall of Ulster etc etc, if I put on my IRFU hat, and imagine this 23 for Ulster's first Champions Cup match next year:

1. Dooley
2. Best
3. Moore
4. Henderson
5. O'Connor
6. Coetzee
7. Murphy
8. Deegan
9. Cooney
10. Carberry
11. Stockdale
12. McCloskey
13. Marshall
14. Gilroy
15. Ludik

16. Herring
17. McCall
18. Herbst
19. Treadwell
20. Timoney
21. Marshall
22. McPhillips
23. Cave

HC: Lancaster

Now to me, ok you're not getting much off the bench, but that looks pretty transformative - for no big additional outlay, and with the exception of Carberry doesn't even dent Leinster's first choice 23... [and I'm completely ignoring outcomes from the court case] I appreciate that players are people, and can't just be shuffled round like pawns on a chessboard, but IMO these are the kinds of thoughts and conversations the IRFU needs to be having at the moment, with a view to bridging Ulster from the current mess to sustainability and hopefully success in a year or two...

[darkside lighteside]

8 Leinster guys in that 23. Good Lord!

embarrassing but that's where we are..

Bryn held a forum with ST holders yesterday, I wasn't there but I gathered it was quite painful - Logan was nowhere to be seen. Apparently the review is being undertaken by external consultants, and will be delivered to the Professional Management Committee - i.e. the review will be delivered to guys who are part of the problem Apparently the structure per se isn't in scope, on the basis that uniform structures are in place in each province - on the question of whether the problem is the people in the structure, Bryn wouldn't be drawn understandably. Not at all clear where the IRFU are in all of this.

Apparently plenty of applications for the HC role.. Henderson and Best still not contracted.. Squad to be thinned out for next year.. Acknowledged that the NIQ signings haven't delivered what we would have expected

Obviously you wouldn't expect all of what is going on to be spilled in a forum like this - we can only hope that this review isn't a toothless stitch-up, that doesn't ask for example whether a 13 strong committee of blazers is the most appropriate management board for a professional rugby club

ho hum

[Oldschool]

@Darkside
A very good way to display the impact on your squad using Leinster imports.
However there is at least one flaw in the presentation.
HC Lancaster - Leinster says NO
Oh, and you didn't even name check him - sneaky.

[Ruckedtobits]

According to Sky commentator during Rebels v Brumbies game this afternoon, Kyle Godwiin the Brumbies No 12 is heading to Ulster for next Season. How does that make any sense?

[rooster]

Good luck getting Moore AND Coetzee both fit for a game

Nice call on Wannenburger btw

Anyone saying Farrell was a bad call is a revisionist idiot. Thats even worse than saying we made a glaring mistake at the time letting Beirne go

Farrell went himself to get more game time in France as he was down the pecking order in Ulster at the time, it was not a matter of Ulster not wanting him.
As for Pedrie Wannenburg all he wanted was a 2 year contract to finish his career and Ulster were willing to give it to him but it was turned down in Dublin, Wigglesworth being the main culprit at the time. Tough as old boots was Wannenburg and the last decent ball carrier we had.

[rooster]

According to Sky commentator during Rebels v Brumbies game this afternoon, Kyle Godwiin the Brumbies No 12 is heading to Ulster for next Season. How does that make any sense?

It makes no sense at all if we are taking him as a 10 unless they have made their mind up that Jackson is gone no matter what the trial result.

[paddyor]

According to Sky commentator during Rebels v Brumbies game this afternoon, Kyle Godwiin the Brumbies No 12 is heading to Ulster for next Season. How does that make any sense?

I heard there was euros mentioned in an article though they might not know the difference.