Munster 2017 -2018

[janeymac08]

One thing came from a professional rugby team.

Another came from a group of fans with no connection to a professional rugby team save their support of it

I'll leave you all to guess which is which.

So is that the difference between Leinster and Munster - Leinster have no connection to their supporters while Munster does?

Leinster wants to be the Manchester of Rugby, while Munster is the Barcelona?

[Dave Cahill]

We don't attempt to control our supporters, you'd never find the Leinster media manager going through a pub collaring supporters trying to find a person who written something critical about the team on the internet, for example. Of course, when your message is so poorly constructed, confused, and contradictory I guess ridiculous methods become the norm.

[ronk]

How long ago was that?

What was so bad? Defending Keatley?

[Flash Gordon]

They really are taking the whole south african/saracens model to heart.

If they'd listened to me back in 2007 then they'd be debt free by now, and not only debt free, but wallowing in their second lake of cash from renewed 10 year tickets. But I was told that the good times would never end, the debt would be lighter than a feathers fart, there'd be an autumn international every year (no matter what Aviva might say) and touring teams would queue up to give Munster big backs of cash for the honour of being allowed play them.

Now, they're just a less successful version of Saracens.

I don't take any particular joy in what happened to them financially. You and I both know genuine Munster supporters who did it the hard way and you wouldn't wish anything bad on them (unless they were playing Leinster obviously.....). But you're right, what happened back then was farcical. For me the active blocking of the naming rights sale for TP because it was too ligindry to be sullied by commercialism epitomised how abjectly incompetent the Munster Branch were in running the province from a financial perspective. That being said, the IRFU were also culpable in letting that happen.

[janeymac08]

We don't attempt to control our supporters, you'd never find the Leinster media manager going through a pub collaring supporters trying to find a person who written something critical about the team on the internet, for example. Of course, when your message is so poorly constructed, confused, and contradictory I guess ridiculous methods become the norm.

The media manager was a Leinster man (RIP Pat)!

[Oldschoolsocks]

Wow, that actually happened???

I thought that was an urban (rural?) legend

[ronk]

I don't take any particular joy in what happened to them financially. You and I both know genuine Munster supporters who did it the hard way and you wouldn't wish anything bad on them (unless they were playing Leinster obviously.....). But you're right, what happened back then was farcical. For me the active blocking of the naming rights sale for TP because it was too ligindry to be sullied by commercialism epitomised how abjectly incompetent the Munster Branch were in running the province from a financial perspective. That being said, the IRFU were also culpable in letting that happen.

They were mostly insulated from the financials because of the extent of the IRFU bailout.

Their recruitment quantities don't tally with a broke province and never really hit the exodus we had.

[janeymac08]

I don't take any particular joy in what happened to them financially. You and I both know genuine Munster supporters who did it the hard way and you wouldn't wish anything bad on them (unless they were playing Leinster obviously.....). But you're right, what happened back then was farcical. For me the active blocking of the naming rights sale for TP because it was too ligindry to be sullied by commercialism epitomised how abjectly incompetent the Munster Branch were in running the province from a financial perspective. That being said, the IRFU were also culpable in letting that happen.

They were mostly insulated from the financials because of the extent of the IRFU bailout.

Their recruitment quantities don't tally with a broke province and never really hit the exodus we had.

Lucky Leinster who have never had to even think of selling naming rights because it rents its stadium. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would manage if it had to redevelop its own stadium.

Strike that, we know. Leinster made a complete mess of the attempt to redevelop that white elephant of a stand in Donnybrook while the players were up to their oxters in muck. Nice of the Royal Dublin Society and the IRFU to bail Leinster out with usage of the RDS and Lansdowne Road stadium. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would cope if it had to come up with 30m or 40m to provide a stadium for games.

[ronk]

RDS and Lansdowne Road make barrels of cash out of Leinster. They owe us gratitude.

Ulster did fine in Ravenhill.

Staying in the RDS makes business sense. Building corporate boxes based on 4 matches a year and then letting clubs sell corporate packages to compete against/undercut you is not a winning business model. Restricting season tickets so you can give more of the best tickets to clubs is also a proven strategy for losing money.

Too many of the same people are calling too many shots.

[janeymac08]

RDS and Lansdowne Road make barrels of cash out of Leinster. They owe us gratitude.

Ulster did fine in Ravenhill.

Staying in the RDS makes business sense. Building corporate boxes based on 4 matches a year and then letting clubs sell corporate packages to compete against/undercut you is not a winning business model. Restricting season tickets so you can give more of the best tickets to clubs is also a proven strategy for losing money.

Too many of the same people are calling too many shots.

I trust the IRFU & Leinster are grateful to the Munster fans who fill the Aviva once a year then!

Ulster did fine in Ravenhill because they got a 18m (approx.) grant to redevelop Ravenhill from the British Government. They did not have to provide any funding. Unfortunately, the Irish Government were not so generous with Munster (though they came up trumps with the Aviva).

The Aviva Stadium is only used about 5 or 6 games a year by the IRFU and they built corporate boxes Munster follow the same business plan as the Aviva (which is hardly surprising since the IRFU has a 50% stake in Thomond Park). Anyway, more than just matches go on in Thomond Park!

[Flash Gordon]

I don't take any particular joy in what happened to them financially. You and I both know genuine Munster supporters who did it the hard way and you wouldn't wish anything bad on them (unless they were playing Leinster obviously.....). But you're right, what happened back then was farcical. For me the active blocking of the naming rights sale for TP because it was too ligindry to be sullied by commercialism epitomised how abjectly incompetent the Munster Branch were in running the province from a financial perspective. That being said, the IRFU were also culpable in letting that happen.

They were mostly insulated from the financials because of the extent of the IRFU bailout.

Their recruitment quantities don't tally with a broke province and never really hit the exodus we had.

Lucky Leinster who have never had to even think of selling naming rights because it rents its stadium. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would manage if it had to redevelop its own stadium.

Strike that, we know. Leinster made a complete mess of the attempt to redevelop that white elephant of a stand in Donnybrook while the players were up to their oxters in muck. Nice of the Royal Dublin Society and the IRFU to bail Leinster out with usage of the RDS and Lansdowne Road stadium. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would cope if it had to come up with 30m or 40m to provide a stadium for games.

Not sure about Donnybrook being a white elephant, we only built one stand and the stadium is well used for schools games and concerts. That being said, the Leinster Branch realised early that the pitch and stadium weren't fit for purpose and course corrected.

With regards to the RDS, I know very few businesses in the area that I work that own their buildings. You do the smart thing economically. You certainly don't build a factory or office or a stadium you have no chance of paying back. We pay rent for the RDS and the naming rights have already been pitched out to various companies and there is absolutely no issue selling those - you will have noticed Donnybrook is now Energia Park. We manage to maintain a financial position which is around break even.

Munster are absolutely entitled to use Lansdowne Road for big games if they so chose and are willing to pay the cost to the IRFU, it's only 2 1/2 hours down the road which is a short enough journey for anyone anyone who is brave and faithful. However, Munster's problem is that they built the hype into the business plan. The reality is that most fans of all provinces are not ligindry and the wouldn't actually die for the club. Many go along to have a pint, entertain the kids or watch a big game.

Blocking the naming rights for TP was just plain stupid. I was working for a major sponsor at that time and we just couldn't believe the money they were leaving on the table.....And more fool the IRFU for allowing that to happen. Munster need to address their economic model - get more commercial and fix the academy so they don't have to spend so much on imports. You can blame Leinster all you like, as I said, I take no pleasure in Munster's financial woes but the reality is that the soul of the club has fundamentally changed because the players on the park are increasingly not from Munster and the financial model is a car crash.

[ronk]

Vested interests are still in control and have enough influence in the IRFU/public that they've never been seriously stood up to. Things have improved but not enough. Especially when you look at the Greencore Academy

[janeymac08]

They were mostly insulated from the financials because of the extent of the IRFU bailout.

Their recruitment quantities don't tally with a broke province and never really hit the exodus we had.

Lucky Leinster who have never had to even think of selling naming rights because it rents its stadium. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would manage if it had to redevelop its own stadium.

Strike that, we know. Leinster made a complete mess of the attempt to redevelop that white elephant of a stand in Donnybrook while the players were up to their oxters in muck. Nice of the Royal Dublin Society and the IRFU to bail Leinster out with usage of the RDS and Lansdowne Road stadium. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would cope if it had to come up with 30m or 40m to provide a stadium for games.

Not sure about Donnybrook being a white elephant, we only built one stand and the stadium is well used for schools games and concerts. That being said, the Leinster Branch realised early that the pitch and stadium weren't fit for purpose and course corrected.

With regards to the RDS, I know very few businesses in the area that I work that own their buildings. You do the smart thing economically. You certainly don't build a factory or office or a stadium you have no chance of paying back. We pay rent for the RDS and the naming rights have already been pitched out to various companies and there is absolutely no issue selling those - you will have noticed Donnybrook is now Energia Park. We manage to maintain a financial position which is around break even.

Munster are absolutely entitled to use Lansdowne Road for big games if they so chose and are willing to pay the cost to the IRFU, it's only 2 1/2 hours down the road which is a short enough journey for anyone anyone who is brave and faithful. However, Munster's problem is that they built the hype into the business plan. The reality is that most fans of all provinces are not ligindry and the wouldn't actually die for the club. Many go along to have a pint, entertain the kids or watch a big game.

Blocking the naming rights for TP was just plain stupid. I was working for a major sponsor at that time and we just couldn't believe the money they were leaving on the table.....And more fool the IRFU for allowing that to happen. Munster need to address their economic model - get more commercial and fix the academy so they don't have to spend so much on imports. You can blame Leinster all you like, as I said, I take no pleasure in Munster's financial woes but the reality is that the soul of the club has fundamentally changed because the players on the park are increasingly not from Munster and the financial model is a car crash.

As far as I can recall, the Leinster Branch lost a lot of money on trying to redevelop Donnybrook. It was crazy putting in that stand when the pitch was unusable. How many years did it take for that to sink in? The place isn't big enough to hold the school's final.

With regard to owning your own stadium - its all very well to do so if there are stadia to rent (which wasn't the case in Limerick). What do you think Munster should have done? Let Thomond Park fall down and come up to the Aviva for Munster's home games? Do an Edinburgh on it?

Leinster are entitlted to use the Aviva? Anyone saying Leinster isn't. Its just very handy for Leinster that there is this stadium part owned by the IRFU a kilometre down the road from the RDS that they can hire. You think Munster supporters should be driving up and down from Cork/Limerick to games in the Aviva?

Munster have a Commercial Board, most of them who know a hell of a lot more about commerce than the entire Leinster fan base put together. (See list of who they below). I'm not blaming Leinster (most of the narrative here is why isn't Munster more like Leinster) though it comes across like jealousy of Munster for reasons I can't fathom bearing in mind how successful Leinster have been this year.

You haven't a clue what the financial model is (for example, do you know that Munster have a Patron's Scheme whereby wealthy individuals guarantee to provide up to 30K a year for 3 years?, or that it organises a dinner in London every year where some of the proceeds of last year's dinner are paying for a new All Weather pitch in Musgrave Park this year?

MUNSTER RUGBY COMMERCIAL BOARD MEMBERS:
Niall FitzGerald: Chairman, Leverhulme Trust (retired chairman of Unilever UK). https://www.irishtimes.com/business/fri ... -1.2137093
Patrick Coveney: CEO, Greencore
David Cronin: CEO, UL Foundation
Leslie Buckley: Chairman, Independent News and Media.
Tony Keohane: Chairman, Ervia and Repak
Ken Murphy: Executive Vice President & Chief Commercial Officer, Walgreens Boots Alliance
Dee Forbes: Director General, RTE
Gilbert Little: Director, Ammeon Ltd
Keith Wood: Director, W2 Consulting
Killian Hurley: CEO, Mount Anvil
Gerry O'Shea: President, Munster Rugby
Garrett Fitzgerald: CEO, Munster Rugby
Gerry O'Loughlin: Independent Chairman, Management Committee, Munster Rugby
John Hartery: Professional Game Board Representative
Tom Kinirons: Independent Chair, Finance Committee, Munster Rugby
Enda Lynch: Commercial and Marketing Manager, Munster Rugby
Doug Howlett: Corporate Ambassador, Munster Rugby

[paddyor]

I don't take any particular joy in what happened to them financially. You and I both know genuine Munster supporters who did it the hard way and you wouldn't wish anything bad on them (unless they were playing Leinster obviously.....). But you're right, what happened back then was farcical. For me the active blocking of the naming rights sale for TP because it was too ligindry to be sullied by commercialism epitomised how abjectly incompetent the Munster Branch were in running the province from a financial perspective. That being said, the IRFU were also culpable in letting that happen.

They were mostly insulated from the financials because of the extent of the IRFU bailout.

Their recruitment quantities don't tally with a broke province and never really hit the exodus we had.

Lucky Leinster who have never had to even think of selling naming rights because it rents its stadium. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would manage if it had to redevelop its own stadium.

Strike that, we know. Leinster made a complete mess of the attempt to redevelop that white elephant of a stand in Donnybrook while the players were up to their oxters in muck. Nice of the Royal Dublin Society and the IRFU to bail Leinster out with usage of the RDS and Lansdowne Road stadium. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would cope if it had to come up with 30m or 40m to provide a stadium for games.

How is Donnybrook a white elephant? It hosts lots of games particularly the 20s and womens. It's probably more used than Independent park.

[paddyor]

You haven't a clue what the financial model is (for example, do you know that Munster have a Patron's Scheme whereby wealthy individuals guarantee to provide up to 30K a year for 3 years?, or that it organises a dinner in London every year where some of the proceeds of last year's dinner are paying for a new All Weather pitch in Musgrave Park this year?

A begging bowl?

[janeymac08]

They were mostly insulated from the financials because of the extent of the IRFU bailout.

Their recruitment quantities don't tally with a broke province and never really hit the exodus we had.

Lucky Leinster who have never had to even think of selling naming rights because it rents its stadium. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would manage if it had to redevelop its own stadium.

Strike that, we know. Leinster made a complete mess of the attempt to redevelop that white elephant of a stand in Donnybrook while the players were up to their oxters in muck. Nice of the Royal Dublin Society and the IRFU to bail Leinster out with usage of the RDS and Lansdowne Road stadium. It would be interesting to see how Leinster would cope if it had to come up with 30m or 40m to provide a stadium for games.

How is Donnybrook a white elephant? It hosts lots of games particularly the 20s and womens. It's probably more used than Independent park.

I said the stand was a white elephant. Cart before the horse - money spent on a stand looking onto a quadmire of an unusable pitch. Of course the IRFU helped Leinster out by moving all U20s and women's games there so that Leinster could get sponsorship for it. Meanwhile, the rest of the Provinces don't get any international games.

[janeymac08]

You haven't a clue what the financial model is (for example, do you know that Munster have a Patron's Scheme whereby wealthy individuals guarantee to provide up to 30K a year for 3 years?, or that it organises a dinner in London every year where some of the proceeds of last year's dinner are paying for a new All Weather pitch in Musgrave Park this year?

A begging bowl?

An awards ceremony in a posh London hotel with entertainment laid on. Whats not to like.

[Dave Cahill]

As far as I can recall, the Leinster Branch lost a lot of money on trying to redevelop Donnybrook. It was crazy putting in that stand when the pitch was unusable. How many years did it take for that to sink in? The place isn't big enough to hold the school's final.

You and reality are really only on a nodding acquaintance, aren't you. A new pitch was laid in 2005 and a hybrid pitch was laid in 2006, the new stand wasn't opened until 2008 and the pitch was used throughout the development phase before being replaced a few years ago with a 3g surface. The pitch before that was very sandy and wasn't fit for professional rugby.

Of course it isn't big enough to hold the schools final, thats the biggest game in the country below professional level.

[janeymac08]

It was a cr@p pitch that was put in in 2005 & 2006. It was a dustbowl for AIL final a few years ago (Belvo v Cork Con I think). I also recall a Ireland A v Saxons game being called off because the Saxons refused to play on it. All is well now - a new 3G pitch was installed for the start of the 14-15 season, compliments of a 750K Grant from the Sports Council & a sponsorship deal that ensures that all U20s and Women's games have to be played there. ''Donnybrook's Synthetic Field of Dreams'' Franno dubbed it!

[Dave Cahill]

Munster have a Commercial Board, most of them who know a hell of a lot more about commerce than the entire Leinster fan base put together. (See list of who they below).

....

MUNSTER RUGBY COMMERCIAL BOARD MEMBERS:
Niall FitzGerald: Chairman, Leverhulme Trust (retired chairman of Unilever UK). https://www.irishtimes.com/business/fri ... -1.2137093
Patrick Coveney: CEO, Greencore
David Cronin: CEO, UL Foundation
Leslie Buckley: Chairman, Independent News and Media.
Tony Keohane: Chairman, Ervia and Repak
Ken Murphy: Executive Vice President & Chief Commercial Officer, Walgreens Boots Alliance
Dee Forbes: Director General, RTE
Gilbert Little: Director, Ammeon Ltd
Keith Wood: Director, W2 Consulting
Killian Hurley: CEO, Mount Anvil
Gerry O'Shea: President, Munster Rugby
Garrett Fitzgerald: CEO, Munster Rugby
Gerry O'Loughlin: Independent Chairman, Management Committee, Munster Rugby
John Hartery: Professional Game Board Representative
Tom Kinirons: Independent Chair, Finance Committee, Munster Rugby
Enda Lynch: Commercial and Marketing Manager, Munster Rugby
Doug Howlett: Corporate Ambassador, Munster Rugby

I think that we can comprehensively and objectively say that they don't. I don't know many Leinster supporters, on this board at least, that have turned a revenue neutral development into a €15m debt that can't be repaid, losing ownership of their half of the stadium company and losing their option on the other half and on the freehold for 70 years. Indeed had any of those Board members run their employers companies as poorly as they've run Munster Rugby there'd probably have to be a tribunal.