Munster 2017 -2018

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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby deco » August 5th, 2017, 10:20 pm

hugonaut wrote:
sunshiner1 wrote:
White lies for the players. Derailment of the season, the risk of being honest.


If they did then it was a smart move by Munster. The Connacht team mentally checked out when they heard that Lam was going so stopping the same thing happening makes perfect sense.


Absolutely agree, and a very good point.

Eamonn Dunphy used the phrase 'honesty of effort' a long time ago and it was shortened – and bastardised – to plain old 'honesty', and then 'honesty' became the coverall word for anything positive. Bravery, determination, diligence, clarity of thought under pressure, resourcefulness ... who needs any of those things when you've got 'honesty'?

Honesty isn't the only sports-applicable virtue. Maybe its pre-eminence in spoken interviews is down to something as banal as a limited vocabulary, but you need more than honesty to be successful in sport ... a lot more.

Erasmus very probably told lies about his employment situation, but people tell lies a lot more often than they'll admit. In my opinion, he had a valid reason to conceal his mid-season decision to leave Munster: exactly what Blockhead described above, the real risk of "derailment of the season".

In my opinion, it was probably a tough thing for Erasmus to do – going in front of a room full of journalists, being asked a straightforward question and responding with an answer that he absolutely knew wasn't true. I don't think he took it lightly, or that he did it on his own behalf as the easy option. I believe that he gave it a lot of consideration, and came to the conclusion that it was better for the squad [and probably for the wider Munster Rugby set-up, however wide you want to consider that constituency] that he put his own reputation – and to some degree, his integrity – in second place, and put the team and the season first.

It was always going to come out that he was leaving, so he knew that his reputation for 'honesty' would take a hit. However, to my mind he showed both thoughtfulness, a degree of selflessness and ultimately wisdom and in his decision-making in this situation.


Wow, so Munsters "Honesty" stitched into their jersey and seared into their hearts actually means it's okay tell lies that benefit the brand/franchise?

Not sure many Munster fans will be too happy with that.

As my old English teacher used to say: "words mean what they mean, not what you want them to mean".

Lies are lies.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby hugonaut » August 5th, 2017, 11:12 pm

deco wrote:
Wow, so Munsters "Honesty" stitched into their jersey and seared into their hearts actually means it's okay tell lies that benefit the brand/franchise?

Not sure many Munster fans will be too happy with that.

As my old English teacher used to say: "words mean what they mean, not what you want them to mean".

Lies are lies.


I'm not approaching the situation from the perspective of a Munster fan, because I'm not one. I'm not making apologies for Erasmus or the Munster 'brand' because I have absolutely no stake in the matter. I think it's interesting to discuss because it's a very difficult situation, and to my mind he handled the situation pragmatically and pretty wisely.

If somebody lies [essentially] to you about something that concerns you – and if you're a Munster fan, the head coach situation of the team you support definitely concerns you – then there's an understandable emotional reaction. I'm looking at it from a more or less neutral perspective, and have no emotional involvement in the situation. It's the situation itself and looking at the angles/potential outcomes that interested me.

People can stitch whatever they want into a jersey, it's just thread. With regards to your English teacher's comment, I couldn't agree more. The first half of my post was all about that!
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby ronk » August 6th, 2017, 2:21 am

Rassie couldn't just lie on his own because if Munster confirmed the opposite immediately it would have been farce.

They were in on it at least and may have asked him for it, which makes more sense.

Season tickets would be a stronger motivation in that scenario than player motivation


The honesty in sport thing is older than Dunphy; it's an honest days work.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » August 6th, 2017, 4:06 am

Sorry but I don't think Rassie gave a sh!t about the team, IMO everything he said was just about protecting himself. The knock on effect of that may have been that the team felt better about life, but ultimately I think the way he acted was very calculated and he was just out for himself. Telling the team he'd be around next season was a prime example of that. Technically it may have been true, but he mislead them and that ensured that the press took it easy on him.

I get that the job on offer was a good one, but lets look at the rest of the facts here. He took over a team and one of the coaches that he usurped died. He was then heavily backed by the union...and yet decides to leave less than a year into his contract...the fact that he did a good job only helped him to leave anyway. He's a bullshit merchant and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. He's obviously good at his job and I'm sure Munster will be worse off without him (and the defensive coach who he's taking with him of course...even worse) but good riddance.

Whether I was a Munster or South African player (is there a difference says you), I wouldn't believe a word that came out of his mouth. There's a good chance that people working under him won't give a fuck/know much about what happened at Munster, but I don't see how anyone could buy into what he says if they are aware of his time here.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby dropkick » August 6th, 2017, 5:15 pm

To be fair to Rassie he did a good job. Munster fans are complaining about the way he is leaving but I think everyone would agree that he steadied the ship and will be leaving it in much better condition than when he arrived. Thats what Munster wanted and thats what Rassie brought to the table. Changing coach mid season is not ideal but as I said on MFs, its the ideal time to sign a coach from the southern hemisphere because its the end of their season so there'll be a lot of good coaches on the market now and few buyers. So its a buyers market.


Rassie to me looks like a short term, no risk coach. The style of play Munster played last season very simplistic and resulted in consistency of results but was dealt with easily by the best teams. With that in mind the next coach should be interesting in terms of the style of play. Are Munster ready to embrace more attacking rugby these days?
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby hugonaut » August 6th, 2017, 5:36 pm

ronk wrote:The honesty in sport thing is older than Dunphy; it's an honest days work.


I don't recall people [and especially Irish sports people] talking about 'honesty' in sport before Dunphy. Maybe it's because I was a kid at that stage, but the language of sport that I grew up with was "give it a lash" – Mick Doyle and Jack Charlton – and Ciaran Fitzgerald's "Where's your f*cking pride?"

It was more about pride in the jersey, pride in representing Ireland and going on to the pitch to try and outperform expectation. Jimmy Davidson was the exception in my blurry memory, with his complaints about the failure to prepare properly and professionally.
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Munster 2017 -2018

Postby artaneboy » August 6th, 2017, 5:52 pm

hugonaut wrote:
ronk wrote:The honesty in sport thing is older than Dunphy; it's an honest days work.


I don't recall people [and especially Irish sports people] talking about 'honesty' in sport before Dunphy. Maybe it's because I was a kid at that stage, but the language of sport that I grew up with was "give it a lash" – Mick Doyle and Jack Charlton – and Ciaran Fitzgerald's "Where's your f*cking pride?"

It was more about pride in the jersey, pride in representing Ireland and going on to the pitch to try and outperform expectation. Jimmy Davidson was the exception in my blurry memory, with his complaints about the failure to prepare properly and professionally.

I'm afraid it must be your relative youth. Jack Charlton was never a "give it a lash" man. Honestly or it's antonyms was so commonplace a trope as to be meaningless wallpaper in the commentary/ analysis of the 70s and 80s. Not least from the mouth of the same Charlton.

Fitzgerald and that over used "pride" cliche was a variant- after all he wasn't looking for some one to produce a moment of genius skill- was he? It was more bite 'bite and bollock'- I.e. "Honesty."

Dunphy was almost the exact opposite of that, supporting his mentor Giles in minimising the role of 'heart' with respect to intellect and skill. As if they were separate elements. Actually Mick Doyle was the outlier.


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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby Oldschool » August 6th, 2017, 7:44 pm

hugonaut wrote:
ronk wrote:The honesty in sport thing is older than Dunphy; it's an honest days work.


I don't recall people [and especially Irish sports people] talking about 'honesty' in sport before Dunphy. Maybe it's because I was a kid at that stage, but the language of sport that I grew up with was "give it a lash" – Mick Doyle and Jack Charlton – and Ciaran Fitzgerald's "Where's your f*cking pride?"

It was more about pride in the jersey, pride in representing Ireland and going on to the pitch to try and outperform expectation. Jimmy Davidson was the exception in my blurry memory, with his complaints about the failure to prepare properly and professionally.

I don't think Mick Doyle was anything like a "give it a lash" coach.
He coached Leinster to a four in row playing running rugby but in a structure way.
While he himself used the "give it a lash" term I suspect that was just PR.
His teams played very exciting rugby but some of the tries they scored took hard work and practice.
A bit of a con artist in the nicest possible way maybe.
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Munster 2017 -2018

Postby artaneboy » August 6th, 2017, 8:12 pm

Yes. I think it's probably a mistake to equate the supposed "give it a lash" mindset with that of the "honesty/ pride/ passion" model. Doyle and the few others (e.g. Knox, Penney- maybe?) advocating adventure and a focus on attacking play were invariably serious thinkers and planners on the best way to open up set defences.

In rugby, even in the days before defensive systems and specialised coaches, tries were very hard to score; significantly rarer per game than they are now. It required "dispassion" more than its opposite. Other codes had their differences- soccer was always a sport Ireland and Irish teams had difficulties with scoring- but the same pattern can be discerned.


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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby hugonaut » August 7th, 2017, 11:42 am

dropkick wrote:To be fair to Rassie he did a good job. Munster fans are complaining about the way he is leaving but I think everyone would agree that he steadied the ship and will be leaving it in much better condition than when he arrived. Thats what Munster wanted and thats what Rassie brought to the table. Changing coach mid season is not ideal but as I said on MFs, its the ideal time to sign a coach from the southern hemisphere because its the end of their season so there'll be a lot of good coaches on the market now and few buyers. So its a buyers market.


Rassie to me looks like a short term, no risk coach. The style of play Munster played last season very simplistic and resulted in consistency of results but was dealt with easily by the best teams. With that in mind the next coach should be interesting in terms of the style of play. Are Munster ready to embrace more attacking rugby these days?


I think he did an outstanding job. Munster were underperforming badly when he came in and had been on the slide since Penney left.

Penney's side won 22 wins in 31 games in his last season, 2013/14 [16 of 23 in league, reaching the semi-final, and 6 of 8 in cup, reaching the semi in that competition as well] for a 71% winning percentage.

In Foley's first season as head coach [2014/15] they won 19 of 30 [16 of 24 in league, reaching the final; and 3 of 6 in the cup, going out in the first round], a 63% winning percentage; and 16 of 28 [13 of 22 in league, finishing sixth; and 3 of 6 in the cup, going out in the first round again] in 2015-16, a 57% winning percentage.

Erasmus' team won 26 of 32 games: 20 of 24 in the league [reaching the final] and 6 of 8 in the cup [reaching the semi-final] – an 81% winning rate. It was an outstanding achievement.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby Dave Cahill » August 7th, 2017, 11:53 am

But it's an achievement that to be judged in context has two asteriskseseseses. Neither Penny nor Foley had a seemingly unlimited supply of foreign players available to them. Nor did they immense injection of emotional energy that Erasmus had - for better or worse. There was just so much going on with Munster last season it's very difficult to take anything out of it without 'cross contamination'.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby leinsterforever » August 7th, 2017, 5:53 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:But it's an achievement that to be judged in context has two asteriskseseseses. Neither Penny nor Foley had a seemingly unlimited supply of foreign players available to them. Nor did they immense injection of emotional energy that Erasmus had - for better or worse. There was just so much going on with Munster last season it's very difficult to take anything out of it without 'cross contamination'.


Foley got a fair number of NIQ medical jokers - Guinazu, Gonzalez Amorosino, Sagario, Pat Howard
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby Dave Cahill » August 7th, 2017, 7:39 pm

Nothing wrong with signing jokers, everyone should be entitled to do so should the need arise. The problem is with the abuse of the process and no process in Irish rugby was ever abused the way Munster abused it last season.
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