Munster 2017 -2018

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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby mildlyinterested » August 29th, 2018, 12:39 pm

janeymac08 wrote:
hugonaut wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Maybe the idea from Leo et al is that giving a young guy gametime will be more beneficial in the long run than bringing in a SH journeyman to fill a hole, which would be fair enough.

The Mathewson signing is ridiculous though I wonder if part of it is a deal with Munster to give Murray time to get sorted now with Ireland in mind. It sounds like an injury that he could probably play with but needs to get sorted at some stage.


Munster do this sort of thing a lot, and a brief review of the scheme shows that the value of it is dubious.

1. Guinazu [2014, 4 months]: https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2014/090 ... term-deal/
2. MacDonald [2014, 3 months]: https://www.irishrugby.ie/mobile/news/29817.php
3. Howard [2014, 3 months]: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.1995029
4. Amorosino [2015, 3 months]: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/36048.php#.W4WaLC_MwdU
5. Sagario [2015, 3 months]: https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rug ... 60911.html
6. Taute [2016, 4 months]: https://www.eirsport.ie/munster-bring-i ... -term-deal
7. Te Aihe Toma [2016, unspecified]: https://www.ultimaterugby.com/te-aihe-toma
8. Tomas du Toit [2016, unspecified]: https://munsterrugby.ie/2016/10/04/late ... -signings/
9. Deysel [2017, 3 months]: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3013037
10. Matheson [2018, 4 months]: https://www.planetrugby.com/news/alby-m ... term-deal/

They were trying to get Dries Swanepoel for the end of last season as well [source: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3457046 ] but that didn't pan out.

They've had 10 short term NIQ contracts in the last 5 years by my count - an average of 2 a year. I have the feeling that I missed out on somebody, but 10 is a nice round number in any case.

How many have the rest of the provinces had in that period?


What is their injury history like?

Most of those players play specialist positions like hooker or prop. Off the top of my head for example, the first two were brought in because Damian Varley and Mike Sherry were long time injuries. Even Scannell was injured at the time. Amorosino was brought in to cover for Felix Cronin (who, like Varley had a career ending injury). Taute was brought in for Frances Saili and Sammy Arnold and of course Tyler has been a long term injury worry. Stephen Archer was out for a long time with a neck injury and John Ryan also had health problems.

So, reason Munster have had so many short term signings is down to a large number of injuries over the last few years: Since about 2015 long term injuries/retirements: Damian Varley, Mike Sherry, Stephen Archer, Paul O'Connell (early retirement/injury), Peter O'Mahony, Tyler Bleyendaal, Keith Earls and Felix Jones. Others prone to a lot of injury are Tommy O'Donnell and Andrew Conway.
Most recent/Long term injuries: Tyler, Taute, Farrell & Cloete. Jean Kleyn was out for a long time as well.


Leinster have had plenty of injuries too, Munster just don't have the homegrown players to deal with it and needs signings to cover for it.

in fact munster don't have enough home grown players to have a decent squad.
Last edited by mildlyinterested on August 29th, 2018, 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby blockhead » August 29th, 2018, 1:08 pm

janeymac08 wrote:
What is their injury history like?

Most of those players play specialist positions like hooker or prop. Off the top of my head for example, the first two were brought in because Damian Varley and Mike Sherry were long time injuries. Even Scannell was injured at the time. Amorosino was brought in to cover for Felix Cronin (who, like Varley had a career ending injury). Taute was brought in for Frances Saili and Sammy Arnold and of course Tyler has been a long term injury worry. Stephen Archer was out for a long time with a neck injury and John Ryan also had health problems.

So, reason Munster have had so many short term signings is down to a large number of injuries over the last few years: Since about 2015 long term injuries/retirements: Damian Varley, Mike Sherry, Stephen Archer, Paul O'Connell (early retirement/injury), Peter O'Mahony, Tyler Bleyendaal, Keith Earls and Felix Jones. Others prone to a lot of injury are Tommy O'Donnell and Andrew Conway.
Most recent/Long term injuries: Tyler, Taute, Farrell & Cloete. Jean Kleyn was out for a long time as well.


Most of the players you mention there are imports themselves.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby tomthefan » August 29th, 2018, 2:13 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:Leinster have had plenty of injuries too, Munster just don't have the homegrown players to deal with it and needs signings to cover for it.

in fact munster don't have enough home grown players to have a decent squad.



Now Mildly, people in glass houses should not throw stones. Leinster have their share of imports too, it's just that you have fewer, which is a consequence of having more homegrown players which itself is a function of your greater population.
You might as well criticise Munster for not having a greater population as make the point you're making
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby Laighin Break » August 29th, 2018, 2:24 pm

janeymac08 wrote:Most of those players play specialist positions like hooker or prop. Off the top of my head for example, the first two were brought in because Damian Varley and Mike Sherry were long time injuries. Even Scannell was injured at the time. Amorosino was brought in to cover for Felix Cronin (who, like Varley had a career ending injury). Taute was brought in for Frances Saili and Sammy Arnold and of course Tyler has been a long term injury worry. Stephen Archer was out for a long time with a neck injury and John Ryan also had health problems.

So, reason Munster have had so many short term signings is down to a large number of injuries over the last few years: Since about 2015 long term injuries/retirements: Damian Varley, Mike Sherry, Stephen Archer, Paul O'Connell (early retirement/injury), Peter O'Mahony, Tyler Bleyendaal, Keith Earls and Felix Jones. Others prone to a lot of injury are Tommy O'Donnell and Andrew Conway.
Most recent/Long term injuries: Tyler, Taute, Farrell & Cloete. Jean Kleyn was out for a long time as well.


He was on Toulon's books at the time of early retirement/injury
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby wixfjord » August 29th, 2018, 3:09 pm

tomthefan wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:Leinster have had plenty of injuries too, Munster just don't have the homegrown players to deal with it and needs signings to cover for it.

in fact munster don't have enough home grown players to have a decent squad.



Now Mildly, people in glass houses should not throw stones. Leinster have their share of imports too, it's just that you have fewer, which is a consequence of having more homegrown players which itself is a function of your greater population.
You might as well criticise Munster for not having a greater population as make the point you're making


Part of it is down to greater population. And Leinster have certainly hit on a rich pool of talent from the academy all at one time.

But population doesn’t fully explain it. A big part of it also Munster’s failure to produce, even on a pro rata basis compared to Leinster.

I gave a list of the potential Munster starting 15 in the thread above. It’s literally full of imports.
When you add in the ridiculous list of short term deals above, it doesn’t paint a great picture.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby mildlyinterested » August 29th, 2018, 3:10 pm

tomthefan wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:Leinster have had plenty of injuries too, Munster just don't have the homegrown players to deal with it and needs signings to cover for it.

in fact munster don't have enough home grown players to have a decent squad.



Now Mildly, people in glass houses should not throw stones. Leinster have their share of imports too, it's just that you have fewer, which is a consequence of having more homegrown players which itself is a function of your greater population.
You might as well criticise Munster for not having a greater population as make the point you're making


7 years without a trophy :clap:

saffers everywhere, even the academy.

praying a leinster outhalf can finally replace O'Gara.

short term signings left right and centre, instead of developing homegrown players.

:lol:
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby tomthefan » August 29th, 2018, 3:25 pm

wixfjord wrote:
tomthefan wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:Leinster have had plenty of injuries too, Munster just don't have the homegrown players to deal with it and needs signings to cover for it.

in fact munster don't have enough home grown players to have a decent squad.



Now Mildly, people in glass houses should not throw stones. Leinster have their share of imports too, it's just that you have fewer, which is a consequence of having more homegrown players which itself is a function of your greater population.
You might as well criticise Munster for not having a greater population as make the point you're making


Part of it is down to greater population. And Leinster have certainly hit on a rich pool of talent from the academy all at one time.

But population doesn’t fully explain it. A big part of it also Munster’s failure to produce, even on a pro rata basis compared to Leinster.

I gave a list of the potential Munster starting 15 in the thread above. It’s literally full of imports.
When you add in the ridiculous list of short term deals above, it doesn’t paint a great picture.


I think you're being very pessimistic. Half the population, half the number of Heineken cups etc. Not going through our best time at the moment
but ten or so years ago, virtually positions 1 to 10 of the Irish team were from Munster. We've reached the knock out stages of the HC more times
than you and just as many HC finals. You could say it took Munster to show you the way and the crowing and dissing of people like mildly on this thread is very poor form
considering that.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby tomthefan » August 29th, 2018, 3:28 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:
tomthefan wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:Leinster have had plenty of injuries too, Munster just don't have the homegrown players to deal with it and needs signings to cover for it.

in fact munster don't have enough home grown players to have a decent squad.



Now Mildly, people in glass houses should not throw stones. Leinster have their share of imports too, it's just that you have fewer, which is a consequence of having more homegrown players which itself is a function of your greater population.
You might as well criticise Munster for not having a greater population as make the point you're making


7 years without a trophy :clap:

saffers everywhere, even the academy.

praying a leinster outhalf can finally replace O'Gara.

short term signings left right and centre, instead of developing homegrown players.

:lol:


Leinster outhalf? Joey Carbery from NZ via Kildare, that Joey Carbery?
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby wixfjord » August 29th, 2018, 3:33 pm

tomthefan wrote:I think you're being very pessimistic. Half the population, half the number of Heineken cups etc. Not going through our best time at the moment
but ten or so years ago, virtually positions 1 to 10 of the Irish team were from Munster. We've reached the knock out stages of the HC more times
than you and just as many HC finals. You could say it took Munster to show you the way and the crowing and dissing of people like mildly on this thread is very poor form
considering that.


I think you're shifting the goalposts a lot there tom!

On the topic at hand - the squad makeup is what it is, you can’t be ‘optimistic’ or ‘pessimistic’ about facts. Munster haven’t been producing enough Irish players to supplement their allotted non Irish imports, and have been relying on short term international imports and Leinster/Irish qualified players to fill the gap. That’s undeniable.

Part of that is down to population. Leinster (and Ulster, which is another story) will always have an advantage there. But even given that inbuilt disadvantage, Munster haven't held up their end of the bargain.

The Mathewson signing is a bit of a jump the shark moment to be honest.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby mildlyinterested » August 29th, 2018, 3:35 pm

Yes, Joey Carbery who has lived in leinster since before he was a teenager, who played under-18, under-19, under-20 representative rugby for leinster, while playing club rugby for Athy RFC, UCD RFC and Clontarf RFC and attending Blackrock College. Oh not to mention appearing 37 times for the leinster senior side. Yes, that leinster outhalf.

But if you are delusional enough to try and claim he isn't a leinster outhalf, by all means go ahead :lol: :lol: :clap:
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby FLIP » August 29th, 2018, 3:55 pm

wixfjord wrote:
tomthefan wrote:I think you're being very pessimistic. Half the population, half the number of Heineken cups etc. Not going through our best time at the moment
but ten or so years ago, virtually positions 1 to 10 of the Irish team were from Munster. We've reached the knock out stages of the HC more times
than you and just as many HC finals. You could say it took Munster to show you the way and the crowing and dissing of people like mildly on this thread is very poor form
considering that.


I think you're shifting the goalposts a lot there tom!

On the topic at hand - the squad makeup is what it is, you can’t be ‘optimistic’ or ‘pessimistic’ about facts. Munster haven’t been producing enough Irish players to supplement their allotted non Irish imports, and have been relying on short term international imports and Leinster/Irish qualified players to fill the gap. That’s undeniable.

Part of that is down to population. Leinster (and Ulster, which is another story) will always have an advantage there. But even given that inbuilt disadvantage, Munster haven't held up their end of the bargain.

The Mathewson signing is a bit of a jump the shark moment to be honest.


The shark jumped long ago. Along with pride in their ability to develop players, and their passion for their academy.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby Peg Leg » August 29th, 2018, 4:26 pm

wixfjord wrote:
tomthefan wrote:I think you're being very pessimistic. Half the population, half the number of Heineken cups etc. Not going through our best time at the moment
but ten or so years ago, virtually positions 1 to 10 of the Irish team were from Munster. We've reached the knock out stages of the HC more times
than you and just as many HC finals. You could say it took Munster to show you the way and the crowing and dissing of people like mildly on this thread is very poor form
considering that.


I think you're shifting the goalposts a lot there tom!

On the topic at hand - the squad makeup is what it is, you can’t be ‘optimistic’ or ‘pessimistic’ about facts. Munster haven’t been producing enough Irish players to supplement their allotted non Irish imports, and have been relying on short term international imports and Leinster/Irish qualified players to fill the gap. That’s undeniable.

Part of that is down to population. Leinster (and Ulster, which is another story) will always have an advantage there. But even given that inbuilt disadvantage, Munster haven't held up their end of the bargain.

The Mathewson signing is a bit of a jump the shark moment to be honest.

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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » August 29th, 2018, 4:51 pm

Apparently Joey has the flu and Munster are after Quade Cooper.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby tomthefan » August 29th, 2018, 6:43 pm

wixfjord wrote:Part of that is down to population. Leinster (and Ulster, which is another story) will always have an advantage there. But even given that inbuilt disadvantage, Munster haven't held up their end of the bargain. .


Munster has 19.3% of the population of Ireland.
With anything over three starters in an Irish XV, Munster is more than fulfilling its part of the bargain.
At Twickenham in March Munster had four starters.
You're just so used to Munster being vastly over-represented that you're taking that as the norm.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby wixfjord » August 29th, 2018, 7:31 pm

tomthefan wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Part of that is down to population. Leinster (and Ulster, which is another story) will always have an advantage there. But even given that inbuilt disadvantage, Munster haven't held up their end of the bargain. .


Munster has 19.3% of the population of Ireland.
With anything over three starters in an Irish XV, Munster is more than fulfilling its part of the bargain.
At Twickenham in March Munster had four starters.
You're just so used to Munster being vastly over-represented that you're taking that as the norm.


Interesting analysis, because Munster has 100% of the population of Munster and can only get 4 starters into the Munster team at the moment!
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby leinsterforever » August 29th, 2018, 11:56 pm

I don't really see the logic in signing players up to deals that don't last to the end of the season. Like, what's the plan if Murray gets injured again after Mathewson leaves? Throw Hart in without the prep of lots of gametime during the season, and his confidence shot from seeing that the coach has no faith in him? That's no way to build stability and continuity. Surely you need your second and third choices to be up to speed even if it's only a bench role they need to play in a big knock-out match? The trophies get handed out at the end of the season, after all.

I mean, maybe there'd be worth in it in very specific circumstances - like maybe three players injured in one specialist position. I think Ulster's Speight signing makes a bit more sense because they're just so short of numbers that they're living from hand to mouth and just trying to get by.

I suppose the one mitigating factor here is that van Graan wasn't the one who brought Hart in. Maybe he doesn't rate him and feels Cronin is the answer but needs time to get up to speed
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby ronk » August 30th, 2018, 12:58 am

The logic is that they need a scrum half to cover Murray who is injured. They can extend/ look elsewhere if Murray is injured for longer.

What’s not so logical is that Munster already have 3 other scrumhalves and it doesn’t make sense to pay for backups but then buy emergency cover.

This is unfortunately very common for Munster.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby deco » August 30th, 2018, 9:58 am

wixfjord wrote:
tomthefan wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Part of that is down to population. Leinster (and Ulster, which is another story) will always have an advantage there. But even given that inbuilt disadvantage, Munster haven't held up their end of the bargain. .


Munster has 19.3% of the population of Ireland.
With anything over three starters in an Irish XV, Munster is more than fulfilling its part of the bargain.
At Twickenham in March Munster had four starters.
You're just so used to Munster being vastly over-represented that you're taking that as the norm.


Interesting analysis, because Munster has 100% of the population of Munster and can only get 4 starters into the Munster team at the moment!


Indeed.

He's basically arguing that Munster should really the level of teams such as Cardiff and Edinburgh, but IRFU funded poaches/imports allow them to compete at a higher level. The appetite for silverware drives them, not to develop quality within, but to purchase talent at any given opportunity. A poor man's Racing Metro, a joke of a team.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby Logorrhea » August 30th, 2018, 10:17 am

wixfjord wrote:Interesting analysis, because Munster has 100% of the population of Munster and can only get 4 starters into the Munster team at the moment!


Made me lol that one did.
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Re: Munster 2017 -2018

Postby jimbobjoe » August 30th, 2018, 10:25 am

What's the rugby playing proportion split of the 4 four provinces?
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