Pro 14 - General Thread

Forum for the discussion of other Teams and Clubs as well as General Rugby chat.

Moderator: moderators

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby Dave Cahill » August 2nd, 2017, 4:11 pm

artaneboy wrote:Was the Pro 12 financially sustainable? That's what the argument is about. No playing standards.

I've defended the quality of the Pro 12 often enough relative to the Aviva or T14. Honestly I'd say that the Pro 12 standard at the top third is on a par with both, the middle third is weaker abs the bottom third is similarly deficient. But it doesn't really matter, as the income the French and English have from their TV deals and the savings on costs (travel, etc) from their 'one territory' structure means we are always disadvantaged without making a quantum jump in the strategic reach of our appeal.

The inclusion of the two Saffers teams offers the start of an opportunity to develop that reach. If the new Pro 14 is successful in both sporting and financial terms, other SA clubs may look to join. That combined with a second division of North American, emerging European and the weaker members of the current league will provide the critical mass to compete and grow the game in the Celtic League countries.

The whining and pedantry in what is understandably, an emerging deal is dreary. Wait until we see the details. Yo my mind; so far- so good!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Pro12 is(was) certainly more financially secure and sustainable than either the Top14 or Aviva Premiership. All, bar one club, teams are owned either entirely or, at worst, jointly by the Unions, none of whom are in any particular financial difficulty (and often the opposite is the case). Many of the Top14 and Aviva Premiership clubs are in massive debt - Wasps are GBP43million in the hole and Saracens a further 2 million deeper. Stade Francais were going to be relegated for being e6 million in debt after Guazzini pulled out only for Savare to pour in a further 20 million and they had to be bailed out again this spring. Hans Peter Wild eats some bad shellfish and they're donezo. Same for Wasps, another loss making year or two and the clubs debt is greater than the value of the stadium and hotel complex its set off against and its already pretty certain that they won't be able to repay the bondholder loan on the Ricoh Arena

Now debt isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it needs to be manageable.

Some costs may be lower in 'one country' leagues, but not all. ASMs budget last year was 30.5 million. In 15-16 the IRFU spent e37.6 millon on the entire professional game in Ireland. They might have better TV deals etc, but they need them because so much of that money just leaves the game - poof - gone.
I have Bumbleflex
User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
 
Posts: 20620
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby simonokeeffe » August 2nd, 2017, 4:34 pm

What happens if league went two tier but Connacht went second tier? With no derbies thatd be near fatal for them
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
User avatar
simonokeeffe
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 16114
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 3:04 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby paddyor » August 2nd, 2017, 5:16 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
artaneboy wrote:Was the Pro 12 financially sustainable? That's what the argument is about. No playing standards.

I've defended the quality of the Pro 12 often enough relative to the Aviva or T14. Honestly I'd say that the Pro 12 standard at the top third is on a par with both, the middle third is weaker abs the bottom third is similarly deficient. But it doesn't really matter, as the income the French and English have from their TV deals and the savings on costs (travel, etc) from their 'one territory' structure means we are always disadvantaged without making a quantum jump in the strategic reach of our appeal.

The inclusion of the two Saffers teams offers the start of an opportunity to develop that reach. If the new Pro 14 is successful in both sporting and financial terms, other SA clubs may look to join. That combined with a second division of North American, emerging European and the weaker members of the current league will provide the critical mass to compete and grow the game in the Celtic League countries.

The whining and pedantry in what is understandably, an emerging deal is dreary. Wait until we see the details. Yo my mind; so far- so good!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Pro12 is(was) certainly more financially secure and sustainable than either the Top14 or Aviva Premiership. All, bar one club, teams are owned either entirely or, at worst, jointly by the Unions, none of whom are in any particular financial difficulty (and often the opposite is the case). Many of the Top14 and Aviva Premiership clubs are in massive debt - Wasps are GBP43million in the hole and Saracens a further 2 million deeper. Stade Francais were going to be relegated for being e6 million in debt after Guazzini pulled out only for Savare to pour in a further 20 million and they had to be bailed out again this spring. Hans Peter Wild eats some bad shellfish and they're donezo. Same for Wasps, another loss making year or two and the clubs debt is greater than the value of the stadium and hotel complex its set off against and its already pretty certain that they won't be able to repay the bondholder loan on the Ricoh Arena

Now debt isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it needs to be manageable.

Some costs may be lower in 'one country' leagues, but not all. ASMs budget last year was 30.5 million. In 15-16 the IRFU spent e37.6 millon on the entire professional game in Ireland. They might have better TV deals etc, but they need them because so much of that money just leaves the game - poof - gone.

I think it's a stretch to stay the other 3 Welsh are owned by the union. Plus the last 2 teams to go bust were both from our league which kindof suggests it's not all that healthy.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2956
Joined: November 17th, 2012, 12:48 am

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby neill_m » August 2nd, 2017, 5:30 pm

If there is a destination final this year, it will not be in .......Wales. WRU have ruled out making a bid.

Limerick or Glasgow maybe. Maybe Italy - Milan/Rome?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
neill_m
Knowledgeable
 
Posts: 333
Joined: May 1st, 2014, 12:39 pm

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby artaneboy » August 2nd, 2017, 6:24 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:What happens if league went two tier but Connacht went second tier? With no derbies thatd be near fatal for them

Well, they'd better avoid going second tier then!

Not to be too smart arse, but any established team going down to the second tier would face similar dangers. Call it an incentive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
User avatar
artaneboy
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby artaneboy » August 2nd, 2017, 6:26 pm

paddyor wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
artaneboy wrote:Was the Pro 12 financially sustainable? That's what the argument is about. No playing standards.

I've defended the quality of the Pro 12 often enough relative to the Aviva or T14. Honestly I'd say that the Pro 12 standard at the top third is on a par with both, the middle third is weaker abs the bottom third is similarly deficient. But it doesn't really matter, as the income the French and English have from their TV deals and the savings on costs (travel, etc) from their 'one territory' structure means we are always disadvantaged without making a quantum jump in the strategic reach of our appeal.

The inclusion of the two Saffers teams offers the start of an opportunity to develop that reach. If the new Pro 14 is successful in both sporting and financial terms, other SA clubs may look to join. That combined with a second division of North American, emerging European and the weaker members of the current league will provide the critical mass to compete and grow the game in the Celtic League countries.

The whining and pedantry in what is understandably, an emerging deal is dreary. Wait until we see the details. Yo my mind; so far- so good!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Pro12 is(was) certainly more financially secure and sustainable than either the Top14 or Aviva Premiership. All, bar one club, teams are owned either entirely or, at worst, jointly by the Unions, none of whom are in any particular financial difficulty (and often the opposite is the case). Many of the Top14 and Aviva Premiership clubs are in massive debt - Wasps are GBP43million in the hole and Saracens a further 2 million deeper. Stade Francais were going to be relegated for being e6 million in debt after Guazzini pulled out only for Savare to pour in a further 20 million and they had to be bailed out again this spring. Hans Peter Wild eats some bad shellfish and they're donezo. Same for Wasps, another loss making year or two and the clubs debt is greater than the value of the stadium and hotel complex its set off against and its already pretty certain that they won't be able to repay the bondholder loan on the Ricoh Arena

Now debt isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it needs to be manageable.

Some costs may be lower in 'one country' leagues, but not all. ASMs budget last year was 30.5 million. In 15-16 the IRFU spent e37.6 millon on the entire professional game in Ireland. They might have better TV deals etc, but they need them because so much of that money just leaves the game - poof - gone.

I think it's a stretch to stay the other 3 Welsh are owned by the union. Plus the last 2 teams to go bust were both from our league which kindof suggests it's not all that healthy.

Correct. The Pro 12 was very obviously much more economically precarious as a league (not necessarily individual clubs) than its rivals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
User avatar
artaneboy
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby blockhead » August 2nd, 2017, 6:29 pm

You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
User avatar
blockhead
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3949
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 2:20 pm
Location: Bastardstown, Co. Wexford

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby simonokeeffe » August 2nd, 2017, 6:56 pm

artaneboy wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:What happens if league went two tier but Connacht went second tier? With no derbies thatd be near fatal for them

Well, they'd better avoid going second tier then!

Not to be too smart arse, but any established team going down to the second tier would face similar dangers. Call it an incentive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Make Galway Great Again; two divisions of ten teams with existing sides plus 4 more Bok teams amongst others, thats a hard top 10 for them to stay in
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
User avatar
simonokeeffe
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 16114
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 3:04 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby artaneboy » August 2nd, 2017, 7:19 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:
artaneboy wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:What happens if league went two tier but Connacht went second tier? With no derbies thatd be near fatal for them

Well, they'd better avoid going second tier then!

Not to be too smart arse, but any established team going down to the second tier would face similar dangers. Call it an incentive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Make Galway Great Again; two divisions of ten teams with existing sides plus 4 more Bok teams amongst others, thats a hard top 10 for them to stay in

Yes, it would be competitive- if it pans out with that structure. Which is far from certain. But maybe Connacht won't be the only provincial rival to fall down there- so derbies may well still be open to them.

The Westies are strong enough now to compete even with the likes of the Kings and Cheetahs. But to be frank, while I think what is emerging is fair and progressive, Connacht, Munster and Ulster can worry about themselves now. My concern now is Leinster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
User avatar
artaneboy
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby simonokeeffe » August 2nd, 2017, 7:31 pm

Some of us put country first :mrgreen:
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
User avatar
simonokeeffe
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 16114
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 3:04 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby blockhead » August 2nd, 2017, 7:37 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:Some of us put country first :mrgreen:


Some of us put the Lioms first.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
User avatar
blockhead
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3949
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 2:20 pm
Location: Bastardstown, Co. Wexford

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby Dave Cahill » August 2nd, 2017, 8:23 pm

paddyor wrote:I think it's a stretch to stay the other 3 Welsh are owned by the union. Plus the last 2 teams to go bust were both from our league which kindof suggests it's not all that healthy.


I didn't say the welsh are owned by the Union though the union are in almost complete day to day control of all three clubs in reality as well as the one they actually own.

Unions have culled teams in the past, but for reasons other than finances. Borders and the Warriors because of internal politics within their Unions and Aironi, yes because of finances ostensibly, but really because of financial problems caused by political rivalry between the governments of Emillia-Romagna and Lombardy. The Union basically did a Colts on the Aironi and moved the whole circus to E-R
I have Bumbleflex
User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
 
Posts: 20620
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby Dave Cahill » August 2nd, 2017, 8:25 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:What happens if league went two tier but Connacht went second tier? With no derbies thatd be near fatal for them

I'd say that whatever structure we have, the Interprovincial derbies will be maintained one way or another
I have Bumbleflex
User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
 
Posts: 20620
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby artaneboy » August 2nd, 2017, 8:30 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:Some of us put country first :mrgreen:

Good for you. As I expect you know, I was indicating my preference among the concerns of the four provinces.

But in any case I think the IRFU has the well-being of the Ireland team (not actually the same as that of "the country") very well covered.
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
User avatar
artaneboy
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby artaneboy » August 2nd, 2017, 8:35 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
paddyor wrote:I think it's a stretch to stay the other 3 Welsh are owned by the union. Plus the last 2 teams to go bust were both from our league which kindof suggests it's not all that healthy.


I didn't say the welsh are owned by the Union though the union are in almost complete day to day control of all three clubs in reality as well as the one they actually own.

Unions have culled teams in the past, but for reasons other than finances. Borders and the Warriors because of internal politics within their Unions and Aironi, yes because of finances ostensibly, but really because of financial problems caused by political rivalry between the governments of Emillia-Romagna and Lombardy. The Union basically did a Colts on the Aironi and moved the whole circus to E-R

Most of that is basically true- but it just reinforces the inherent structural weakness that the Pro 12 had as a consequence of its relative scale and economic clout.

We need to grow- and that means change, if we are to develop and survive. It ain't an option: it's an imperative.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
User avatar
artaneboy
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby simonokeeffe » August 2nd, 2017, 9:08 pm

artaneboy wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:Some of us put country first :mrgreen:

Good for you. As I expect you know, I was indicating my preference among the concerns of the four provinces.

But in any case I think the IRFU has the well-being of the Ireland team (not actually the same as that of "the country") very well covered.


Oh I know ya were
We're both more concerned about leinster this season than Connacht in a few years
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
User avatar
simonokeeffe
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 16114
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 3:04 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby TerenureJim » August 3rd, 2017, 8:10 am

Dave Cahill wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:What happens if league went two tier but Connacht went second tier? With no derbies thatd be near fatal for them

I'd say that whatever structure we have, the Interprovincial derbies will be maintained one way or another


The one thing conferences allow for is growth, the current set up can quite easily add two more teams so whether thats Rome, Abardeen, Cornish Pirates, the Washington Nationals or Ottoa Senators I don't know but at least the conference set up, however annoying it is to start with does allow for expansion franchises and we have Super Rugby as a study in how not to do it
User avatar
TerenureJim
Rob Kearney
 
Posts: 4973
Joined: May 5th, 2009, 10:09 am

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby ronk » August 3rd, 2017, 10:02 pm

Had missed that Bradley is coaching Zebre.
User avatar
ronk
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 8624
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 12:42 am

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby ronk » August 3rd, 2017, 10:04 pm

All thing considered, the Pro 14 seem to be managing a complex reorganisation at a very late stage far better the the Prem managesddriving the switch from the Heineken Cup.
User avatar
ronk
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 8624
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 12:42 am

Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Postby blockhead » August 3rd, 2017, 10:58 pm

halfpenny joins scarlets on dual contract
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
User avatar
blockhead
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3949
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 2:20 pm
Location: Bastardstown, Co. Wexford

PreviousNext

Return to General Rugby

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Trendiction-Bot [Bot] and 2 guests