Ulster 2018-2019

[leinsterforever]

Burns seems to have been given a run at the 10 jersey, with McPhillips left out in the cold. Hard to see why based on the Kings game.

[Ruckedtobits]

Burns seems to have been given a run at the 10 jersey, with McPhillips left out in the cold. Hard to see why based on the Kings game.

Not surprising really. Decent CV, good Agent, no Head Coach in situ and Ulster desperate to sign an experienced, Irish-qualified, No 10. The 'price' had to be something like a guarantee to start in 3/5 Pro14 games before Europe.

McPhillips is essentially 'in situ'. Burns will have to earn the jersey from him. Peel, Payne and McFarland will make an objective assessment without a big media drama. Thus far, three out of three must make them satisfied, if not happy.

[paddyor]

Burns seems to have been given a run at the 10 jersey, with McPhillips left out in the cold. Hard to see why based on the Kings game.

He had to play a lot of that game with the 2nd choice 9 who's poor.

[rooster]

Burns seems to have been given a run at the 10 jersey, with McPhillips left out in the cold. Hard to see why based on the Kings game.

Not surprising really. Decent CV, good Agent, no Head Coach in situ and Ulster desperate to sign an experienced, Irish-qualified, No 10. The 'price' had to be something like a guarantee to start in 3/5 Pro14 games before Europe.

McPhillips is essentially 'in situ'. Burns will have to earn the jersey from him. Peel, Payne and McFarland will make an objective assessment without a big media drama. Thus far, three out of three must make them satisfied, if not happy.

Also IRFU driven as possible backup for Sexton. McPhilips has been captain in the A side and Curtis has been cover for 10 and 12. Our massive problem is at 9 with no reasonable backup for Cooney, Shanaghan would struggle to get a start in AIL1 A or B.

[tomthefan]

Burns seems to have been given a run at the 10 jersey, with McPhillips left out in the cold. Hard to see why based on the Kings game.

Not surprising really. Decent CV, good Agent, no Head Coach in situ and Ulster desperate to sign an experienced, Irish-qualified, No 10. The 'price' had to be something like a guarantee to start in 3/5 Pro14 games before Europe.

McPhillips is essentially 'in situ'. Burns will have to earn the jersey from him. Peel, Payne and McFarland will make an objective assessment without a big media drama. Thus far, three out of three must make them satisfied, if not happy.

Also IRFU driven as possible backup for Sexton. McPhilips has been captain in the A side and Curtis has been cover for 10 and 12. Our massive problem is at 9 with no reasonable backup for Cooney, Shanaghan would struggle to get a start in AIL1 A or B.

Shanahan showed one or two good things in between getting tackled heavily.
Is there room in the game any more for such a diminutive scrum half.
Then again, I wonder how Peter Stringer would have looked behind that Ulster pack.

[Dave Cahill]

Small.

[tomthefan]

Small.

[cormac]

Can remember seeing Shanahan play for Leinster U-20’s a few years ago. After his display that evening I didn’t expect to see him involved with the Irish U-20 set-up that year never mind get a contract with one of the provinces.

[Jackie Brown]

Can remember seeing Shanahan play for Leinster U-20’s a few years ago. After his display that evening I didn’t expect to see him involved with the Irish U-20 set-up that year never mind get a contract with one of the provinces.

Yeah, he's still brutal.

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[rooster]

Can remember seeing Shanahan play for Leinster U-20’s a few years ago. After his display that evening I didn’t expect to see him involved with the Irish U-20 set-up that year never mind get a contract with one of the provinces.

I have seen him regularly at Ravenhill and I am still baffled why he has a contract never mind being our second choice 9, he is not even good when playing in AIL

[paddyor]

Can remember seeing Shanahan play for Leinster U-20’s a few years ago. After his display that evening I didn’t expect to see him involved with the Irish U-20 set-up that year never mind get a contract with one of the provinces.

I have seen him regularly at Ravenhill and I am still baffled why he has a contract never mind being our second choice 9, he is not even good when playing in AIL

Because you're dedendent on imports at 9? E.G. Boss, Pienaar, Cooney. Other than Tall Paul, who else have had at 9?

[Dave Cahill]

Because you're dedendent on imports at 9? E.G. Boss, Pienaar, Cooney. Other than Tall Paul, who else have had at 9?

Isn't everyone? The production rate of international standard scrumhalves at Irish provinces is about 1 every 12-15 years or so. And if that guy gets injured we're in trouble. We simply haven't had a clue how to bring through players in this position the way we need them. The success of the Irish provinces since the game went professional has actually mitigated against scrum halves. We need guys who, at 21, are ready for knockout ECC/International rugby. We don't have time for late, or later, developers like Reddan or Cooney - so we buy in. Every province does it. We've had Easterby, Reddan, Boss, JGP. Ulster have had the guys you named. Connacht have Marmion, Cooney, Keane et al. Munster have been relatively lucky with their scrumhalves in terms of injury - Stringer lasted over a decade and backed up Murray though they lost O'Leary, but they've still had to bring in guys like Hart, Toma, Morland or Lloyd to backfill.

Then if you do have a one or a couple of international standard scrum halves, it actually mitigates against you producing any more, as they become blockers. No amount of gametime would turn a Marshall, Williams or O'Donaghue into an international standard scrum half, but for guys a level above that, its useful. However, if you have an international scrum half or even worse in terms of developing younger players, the international bench scrum half, then the amount of time on the pitch the younger guys will get is reduced. National coaches are, by nature, conservative selectors. They know who their guys are and they will want them ready for their team, and they aren''t going to sacrifice that to develop players at provincial level. The reason Cooney, for example, had to leave Leinster (and Connacht) had very little to do with their provincial coaches, and everything to do with the national coach wanting Marmion, Reddan and Boss on the pitch as much as possible in case they were needed by Ireland thus limiting their opportunities.

More fundamentally though, we don't even know what we want from a scrum half. To me Conor Murray is the best scrum half in the world, and the best Ireland has produced since the early 80s (when my memories of watching rugby start). He does everything well. He has a great pass, superb kicker, brilliant decision maker, manages both his pack and his back line better than anyone else in the world, tackles like a back row forward, breaks like a centre. He ticks every box imaginable. Guys like that are flukes in a way though, you don't get many of them in a generation in a hemisphere, never mind in a country. For a decade we had Stringer at scrumhalf, great pass, great game manager, mediocre kicker, mediocre tackler, mediocre break. But because he was the best we had at the things that would best serve that team, then he became the gold standard. It didn't matter if a scrum half was far better in the areas where Stringer was weak, if he was weaker in the areas where Stringer was strong, then he was perceived to be a poor scrum half. It was the same with Mick Bradley, only in reverse. If Peter Stringer at his absolute peak had come through in 85 or 86, he wouldn't get next nor near the Irish team. The great thing about Conor Murray is that, due to his all round excellence, he has hit the reset button on what we consider a scrum half to be.

[Peg Leg]

And possibly hit the reset button wrt what we look for in a skills coach.

[mildlyinterested]

Ulster have been especially bad at developing a homegrown 9.

[leinsterforever]

Sure sign up Rock or Heaney or Lloyd to fight it out with Stewart.

van Graan doesn't seem to rate Hart, so they might be able to get him for next season

[mildlyinterested]

Sure sign up Rock or Heaney or Lloyd to fight it out with Stewart.

van Graan doesn't seem to rate Hart, so they might be able to get him for next season

that's because Hart is no better than average.

and Rock/Lloyd are tiny.

[leinsterforever]

Sure sign up Rock or Heaney or Lloyd to fight it out with Stewart.

van Graan doesn't seem to rate Hart, so they might be able to get him for next season

that's because Hart is no better than average.

and Rock/Lloyd are tiny.

Not much different to Shanahan in terms of size and possibly better players

[mildlyinterested]

Sure sign up Rock or Heaney or Lloyd to fight it out with Stewart.

van Graan doesn't seem to rate Hart, so they might be able to get him for next season

that's because Hart is no better than average.

and Rock/Lloyd are tiny.

Not much different to Shanahan in terms of size and possibly better players

they are both a good bit smaller than Shanahan.

[Dave Cahill]

Ulster have been especially bad at developing a homegrown 9.

No, they haven't. They've simply been worse than Munster, the same as we have been. No homegrown Leinster scrumhalf has gone to a World Cup in the professional era, for example.

[mildlyinterested]

Ulster have been especially bad at developing a homegrown 9.

No, they haven't. They've simply been worse than Munster, the same as we have been. No homegrown Leinster scrumhalf has gone to a World Cup in the professional era, for example.

Current Professional 9's from Ulster:

Michael Heaney
Jonny Stewart

Current Professional 9's from Leinster:

John Cooney
James Hart
Luke McGrath
Dave Shanahan
Conor McKeon
Nick McCarthy
Hugh O'Sullivan
Patrick Patterson