The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

[janeymac08]

Exeter has by far the best defence in the English Premiership having conceeded 22 tries so far. Saracens are next best with 27. They have also scored the most (50 to Saracens 44). They also scored 4 tries against Saracens just before Christmas, winning 31-13 (Saracens scored 1 try). They went over to Castres and scored 6 tries. Exeter are a good side and Munster did well against them. They messed up badly against Gloucester and Munster messed up badly against Castres away.

Carbery deserves a lot of praise - he has just turned 23 and in his first season in a new club playing in a position that up to now he hasn't really played much in. He had a shocker of a day with the boot against Castres and he has come back really strong since then with the boot. He needs to be given a bit more time and experience.

The match v. Exeter really reminds me of the Leinster v. Harlequins bloodgate game when Leinster turned a corner. I think Munster are at a similar stage now on their journey. I just wouldn't write them off.

No they did not score 6 tries over in Castres. They lost 29-25 playing against 14 men for 45 mins.

I was referring to Exeter v. Castres where Exeter scored 6 tries last week.

[johng]

Shouldn't have said "they went over to castres" then

[janeymac08]

The match v. Exeter really reminds me of the Leinster v. Harlequins bloodgate game when Leinster turned a corner. I think Munster are at a similar stage now on their journey. I just wouldn't write them off.

If that is to be a good comparison, it will require Munster to really improve their attacking edge over the next few months. If you remember what happened Leinster after the Quins game, the forward graft and doggedness was married with real incision in Croker (the Fitz & D'Arcy tries).

Munster can probably beat Embra without that, but won't beat Sarries, Racing or Leinster without it.

Felix Jones is one of the most important men in that set up for the next few months imo.

In Carberry and Scannell Munster have the playmakers to cut teams open, and the forwards will give them some platform, it's whether the willingness and structure is there to do enought with it.

Yet Munster is the 2nd top try scoring team in the Pro14 with 53 tries. Leinster is top with 64. Munster is comparable with teams like Glasgow (48), and Scarlets (40).

[janeymac08]

Shouldn't have said "they went over to castres" then

Apologies.

[johng]

Accepted

[wixfjord]

Yet Munster is the 2nd top try scoring team in the Pro14 with 53 tries. Leinster is top with 64. Munster is comparable with teams like Glasgow (48), and Scarlets (40).

Yes, Munster can score plenty of tries in the league.

But that's exactly the point. They can grind worse teams down but need a bit more than that to take it to the next level against better sides.

You presumably also know that they have one of the worst try scoring record of any team in Europe, and the worst of any first or second placed finisher in the pool stages. The only teams with less tries are Newcastle (last), Lyon (last), Castres (second last) and Wasps (last).

I'm not sure why this is such a contentious point?

[dropkick]

Yet Munster is the 2nd top try scoring team in the Pro14 with 53 tries. Leinster is top with 64. Munster is comparable with teams like Glasgow (48), and Scarlets (40).

Yes, Munster can score plenty of tries in the league.

But that's exactly the point. They can grind worse teams down but need a bit more than that to take it to the next level against better sides.

You presumably also know that they have one of the worst try scoring record of any team in Europe, and the worst of any first or second placed finisher in the pool stages. The only teams with less tries are Newcastle (last), Lyon (last), Castres (second last) and Wasps (last).

I'm not sure why this is such a contentious point?

That's my reading of things too. Felix Jones looks out of his depth. There's a real lack of guile and they need the forwards to create space or things fall apart.


The defence coach JP Ferreira has been a great addition to the squad but to take the next step, a sharper attack is needed. It's not like he is lacking talent.

[janeymac08]

Yet Munster is the 2nd top try scoring team in the Pro14 with 53 tries. Leinster is top with 64. Munster is comparable with teams like Glasgow (48), and Scarlets (40).

Yes, Munster can score plenty of tries in the league.

But that's exactly the point. They can grind worse teams down but need a bit more than that to take it to the next level against better sides.

You presumably also know that they have one of the worst try scoring record of any team in Europe, and the worst of any first or second placed finisher in the pool stages. The only teams with less tries are Newcastle (last), Lyon (last), Castres (second last) and Wasps (last).

I'm not sure why this is such a contentious point?

Munster has the best defence in Europe though!

In the 08-09 season, Leinster scored 15 tries in the group stages, yet went onto win the HCup!

[paddyor]

Yet Munster is the 2nd top try scoring team in the Pro14 with 53 tries. Leinster is top with 64. Munster is comparable with teams like Glasgow (48), and Scarlets (40).

30 of that 53 came in 4 games(Cheetahs, Os, Ulster & Edinburgh) against seriously weakened teams where Munster have been close to full strength. 12 of those tries were scored in the other 3 BP wins(Cheetahs A, Zebre and Connacht) meaning you've scored 11 in the 6 other games. Leinster got 19 tries in 3 of the same games but are yet to play the Cheetahs. Munster have been kept to under 13 points 3 times so far this season. That's only happened to Connacht twice.

Scarlets have only won 7 games this season FYI.

[tomthefan]

Yet Munster is the 2nd top try scoring team in the Pro14 with 53 tries. Leinster is top with 64. Munster is comparable with teams like Glasgow (48), and Scarlets (40).

30 of that 53 came in 4 games(Cheetahs, Os, Ulster & Edinburgh) against seriously weakened teams where Munster have been close to full strength. 12 of those tries were scored in the other 3 BP wins(Cheetahs A, Zebre and Connacht) meaning you've scored 11 in the 6 other games. Leinster got 19 tries in 3 of the same games but are yet to play the Cheetahs. Munster have been kept to under 13 points 3 times so far this season. That's only happened to Connacht twice.

Scarlets have only won 7 games this season FYI.

Swap your Wasps with our Exeter and the the for and against columns would look very different in the two pools.

[paddyor]

30 of that 53 came in 4 games(Cheetahs, Os, Ulster & Edinburgh) against seriously weakened teams where Munster have been close to full strength. 12 of those tries were scored in the other 3 BP wins(Cheetahs A, Zebre and Connacht) meaning you've scored 11 in the 6 other games. Leinster got 19 tries in 3 of the same games but are yet to play the Cheetahs. Munster have been kept to under 13 points 3 times so far this season. That's only happened to Connacht twice.

Scarlets have only won 7 games this season FYI.

Swap your Wasps with our Exeter and the the for and against columns would look very different in the two pools.

I was just talking about league form, but you're right, that's 5 times this season you've been kept to under 13 points and twice you haven't scored a try.

[tomthefan]

30 of that 53 came in 4 games(Cheetahs, Os, Ulster & Edinburgh) against seriously weakened teams where Munster have been close to full strength. 12 of those tries were scored in the other 3 BP wins(Cheetahs A, Zebre and Connacht) meaning you've scored 11 in the 6 other games. Leinster got 19 tries in 3 of the same games but are yet to play the Cheetahs. Munster have been kept to under 13 points 3 times so far this season. That's only happened to Connacht twice.

Scarlets have only won 7 games this season FYI.

Swap your Wasps with our Exeter and the the for and against columns would look very different in the two pools.

I was just talking about league form, but you're right, that's 5 times this season you've been kept to under 13 points and twice you haven't scored a try.

Meh, as long as we're topping both our Pro14 and EPCR pools, I'll take it.

[wixfjord]

Yet Munster is the 2nd top try scoring team in the Pro14 with 53 tries. Leinster is top with 64. Munster is comparable with teams like Glasgow (48), and Scarlets (40).

Yes, Munster can score plenty of tries in the league.

But that's exactly the point. They can grind worse teams down but need a bit more than that to take it to the next level against better sides.

You presumably also know that they have one of the worst try scoring record of any team in Europe, and the worst of any first or second placed finisher in the pool stages. The only teams with less tries are Newcastle (last), Lyon (last), Castres (second last) and Wasps (last).

I'm not sure why this is such a contentious point?

Munster has the best defence in Europe though!

In the 08-09 season, Leinster scored 15 tries in the group stages, yet went onto win the HCup!

Yes, and that’s because we showed an evolvement in our backline play in the semi, like I’ve already said.

This isn’t my opinion, it’s evident if you look at Munster’s performances this season and how they’ve gone out of Europe in the last few years. With an excellently drilled pack, test level players and aggression you can go very far in the league and Europe. But you’re unlikely to beat a team who has that but also strong attacking structures and a backline that can score tries and open up better teams.

It’s great that Munster are topping tables, but to win competitions you need a little more. You can't defend your way past a Leinster, Metro or Saracens. The last four winners have scored 22 (Leinster 2018), 20 (Sarries 2017), 26 (Sarries 2016) and 19 (Toulon 2015) in the pool stages.

That’s why Jones and the backline evolvement is so important imo. It's not delivering at the moment against better sides, and it needs to to move to the next level.

Do you disagree?

[tomthefan]

It’s great that Munster are topping tables, but to win competitions you need a little more. You can't defend your way past a Leinster, Metro or Saracens. The last four winners have scored 22 (Leinster 2018), 20 (Sarries 2017), 26 (Sarries 2016) and 19 (Toulon 2015) in the pool stages.

Here are some alternative facts.
Last season, Leinster's aggregate points difference was only 3 better than Munster's at the end of the group stages.
You scored a point and a half more per game but also conceded a point more per game.
The season before Munster's points difference was 2 better than Saracens, the eventual cup winners.
Exeter scored more tries than Munster last Saturday but lost the match and are out of the tournament.
It doesn't matter how points are scored so long as you get more than they do.
Exeter went for tries last Saturday, Munster took the points on offer.
Munster now have a better place kicker than they've had since ROG retired so by definition are going
to score relatively more from the boot and won't need to go for the corner quite so often.

[wixfjord]

They are some alternative facts alright. I’d argue some them are irrelevant, but there you go.

I honestly have no idea why yourself and JM have such an issue with this. It’s clearly a problem with Munster but you seem sore about it for some reason? You can only get so far with attrition alone, you need another option and a broader gameplan. I’d like to see Munster do well but they won’t beat one of the top three if they don’t improve this.

If you think they can beat Sarries and Metro by picking off pens and trying to maul them over then fair enough, but it hasn't worked for Munster in recent years has it?

[paddyor]

It’s great that Munster are topping tables, but to win competitions you need a little more. You can't defend your way past a Leinster, Metro or Saracens. The last four winners have scored 22 (Leinster 2018), 20 (Sarries 2017), 26 (Sarries 2016) and 19 (Toulon 2015) in the pool stages.

Here are some alternative facts.
Last season, Leinster's aggregate points difference was only 3 better than Munster's at the end of the group stages.
You scored a point and a half more per game but also conceded a point more per game.
The season before Munster's points difference was 2 better than Saracens, the eventual cup winners.
Exeter scored more tries than Munster last Saturday but lost the match and are out of the tournament.
It doesn't matter how points are scored so long as you get more than they do.
Exeter went for tries last Saturday, Munster took the points on offer.
Munster now have a better place kicker than they've had since ROG retired so by definition are going
to score relatively more from the boot and won't need to go for the corner quite so often.

I remember that. We finished as top seed on 27 points and you had 22. We went into the final game knowing a win was enough for top seed. You had the Castres Espoirs and stuck 48 on them(we had a knocked out Glasgow the week before). What you're trying to say is this is a recurring theme. Same WDL, same tbp, same LBP same pts total and same number of tries.

[OTT]

It’s great that Munster are topping tables, but to win competitions you need a little more. You can't defend your way past a Leinster, Metro or Saracens. The last four winners have scored 22 (Leinster 2018), 20 (Sarries 2017), 26 (Sarries 2016) and 19 (Toulon 2015) in the pool stages.

Here are some alternative facts.
Last season, Leinster's aggregate points difference was only 3 better than Munster's at the end of the group stages.
You scored a point and a half more per game but also conceded a point more per game.
The season before Munster's points difference was 2 better than Saracens, the eventual cup winners.
Exeter scored more tries than Munster last Saturday but lost the match and are out of the tournament.
It doesn't matter how points are scored so long as you get more than they do.
Exeter went for tries last Saturday, Munster took the points on offer.
Munster now have a better place kicker than they've had since ROG retired so by definition are going
to score relatively more from the boot and won't need to go for the corner quite so often.

In my opinion if you come out of a group ahead of Exeter then you are a good team. They gave us two exceptionally hard games last season (arguably our two toughest along with Racing in the final) and if they beat us in our home match we probably could not have had any complaints. The problem is that with them in your group you have to go out and take a lot of points of other (inferior) teams in the group to get a home quarter and Munster did not do that which any reasonable person would say might come back to bite them. Of the other four games against Gloucester and Castres it would be fair to say (I think) that Munster played well in one of the four. That is not really good enough for me (but Munster fans might demand less) I think Munster are better then Castres and should have been getting 9 points off them (instead of 5), I thought Munster were pretty brutal in both those Castres games (one of them where your best kicker since ROG got blamed for losing you the game through missed kicks).

It now means they have an away quarter which we all know is what no one wants the statistics don't lie, it is against Edinburgh so Munster will fancy that as opposed to the other teams they could have drawn but Munster this season have not traveled that well and Edinburgh are very handy at home . On saying that I would fancy Munster because they are Munster and I remember their big performances in my head and they have some big game players but I don't think it is unreasonable to say that Munster lack a cutting edge against the better teams (and did last season and the season before as well). If they go a couple of scores down against one of the better teams will they be able to strike back before the contest is over, for me the jury is still out on that. I don't think people are being unfair pointing that out. I guess we will probably find out in the semi final (probably away to Saracens) if you do get past Edinburgh.

Good to be in the draw and being able to have these discussions.

[Peg Leg]

Munster are winning the head to head where it matters lads, column inches. They'll talk themselves to victory.

[tomthefan]

That's just your perception, you're so conditioned to wall to wall talk about the conveyor belt and Leo and Stuart from our Dublin based media that when the odd story comes along about munster it stands out.

[tomthefan]

It’s great that Munster are topping tables, but to win competitions you need a little more. You can't defend your way past a Leinster, Metro or Saracens. The last four winners have scored 22 (Leinster 2018), 20 (Sarries 2017), 26 (Sarries 2016) and 19 (Toulon 2015) in the pool stages.

Here are some alternative facts.
Last season, Leinster's aggregate points difference was only 3 better than Munster's at the end of the group stages.
You scored a point and a half more per game but also conceded a point more per game.
The season before Munster's points difference was 2 better than Saracens, the eventual cup winners.
Exeter scored more tries than Munster last Saturday but lost the match and are out of the tournament.
It doesn't matter how points are scored so long as you get more than they do.
Exeter went for tries last Saturday, Munster took the points on offer.
Munster now have a better place kicker than they've had since ROG retired so by definition are going
to score relatively more from the boot and won't need to go for the corner quite so often.

In my opinion if you come out of a group ahead of Exeter then you are a good team. They gave us two exceptionally hard games last season (arguably our two toughest along with Racing in the final) and if they beat us in our home match we probably could not have had any complaints. The problem is that with them in your group you have to go out and take a lot of points of other (inferior) teams in the group to get a home quarter and Munster did not do that which any reasonable person would say might come back to bite them. Of the other four games against Gloucester and Castres it would be fair to say (I think) that Munster played well in one of the four. That is not really good enough for me (but Munster fans might demand less) I think Munster are better then Castres and should have been getting 9 points off them (instead of 5), I thought Munster were pretty brutal in both those Castres games (one of them where your best kicker since ROG got blamed for losing you the game through missed kicks).

It now means they have an away quarter which we all know is what no one wants the statistics don't lie, it is against Edinburgh so Munster will fancy that as opposed to the other teams they could have drawn but Munster this season have not traveled that well and Edinburgh are very handy at home . On saying that I would fancy Munster because they are Munster and I remember their big performances in my head and they have some big game players but I don't think it is unreasonable to say that Munster lack a cutting edge against the better teams (and did last season and the season before as well). If they go a couple of scores down against one of the better teams will they be able to strike back before the contest is over, for me the jury is still out on that. I don't think people are being unfair pointing that out. I guess we will probably find out in the semi final (probably away to Saracens) if you do get past Edinburgh.

Good to be in the draw and being able to have these discussions.

We on the right track. If we get to face saracens in a semi
We'll be better able for them than in 2017.