The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

[Oldschool]

There are enough options to cover for anything Stander offers- and most of those alternatives have much more to their game. The fact is that Ruddock and SOB offer all CJ provides- and then more.

There’s no need for continuity to avoid injury-forced absence in an international team- certainly not in a back row. You pick the players available with the best mix of skills. Stander is not exceptional above his rivals in any aspect; they are clearly better than him in several.

Joe Schmidt clearly needs to watch more Leinster v Munster games then

Fixed

[Oldschool]

Okay, so a lack of skill is an advantage towards selection; is that it? Well it’s a new one...


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You don't measure the utlity of a tractor in it's ability to handle bends. Stander is made for the Irish gameplan. Schmidt can rely on him to show up and truck it up the middle all day long. And IIRC Stander has said he's only encouraged to improve his handling at Munster(though maybe that's as it should be). So yeah, I reckon Schmidt looks at him and thinks those wheels will keep turning in any kind of mud and that's what I want.

Really? Joe Schmidt- the man who always demands more from his players, would decide that he doesn’t want this player with a fairly strong- but limited ability to improve his skills...

C’mon man- put that shovel away!


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Or at least use it to fill that hole.

[artaneboy]

But "Red Joe" Keeps selecting him

He has his favourites- always has had. But injury or circumstance has caused that to change too. And he’s not infallible anyway. He’s made his selection mistakes.

Does anyone believe that either Seanie or Rhys could not do a more than adequate job at 6 or 8 in place of CJ? Of course we don’t.

I wouldn't exchange CJ for either or even both together.
C.J. is far ahead of RR while SOB is much too injury prone.
Very few players could score the try he did against the All Blacks, for example.
And while Tadgh Furlong deservedly got most of the plaudits for the try Stander got against the English
last March, again most other forwards could not generate the momentum C.J. did power his way to the line.

Once more: I don’t see anything that Stander does as being a unique skill. Durability matters to contract payers at negotiation time- not so much to selectors when considering a team construction from currently fit options. You don’t say- “well he was injured a lot over the last couple of years- so I’ll pick the other less skilful but durable lad...”. You go for the best player.

Saying that Seanie is not suitable/ worthy of selection ahead of CJ merely because he is supposedly injury prone is in fact an implicit admission that he more than matches your man. If Seanie is available, he’s invariably a better option.

And Ruddock has all the attributes and ability to match Stander’s carrying and would be obviously so to everybody, if we in Leinster should seek to replicate Munster’s reliance on such carrying. Rhys’ versatility and our greater options mean we don’t see his undoubted ability in this two-dimensional ability.

That try against England was finished off well, but the real skill was in the combination of deception from Furlong, the pass from Bundee- and only then CJ’s carry. But without the subtlety his force would not have made the line. Equally I am convinced that either SOB or Ruddock would have scored the try also from the same position. Indeed many lessers players would have done so.

That’s me done on this.


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[leinsterforever]

I've never been Stander's biggest fan but I don't think saying he doesn't pass really stacks up. If you look at stats, he often passes quite a lot. The trouble is that it's very telegraphed when he does it. He's not the most nimble, and he doesn't keep defenders guessing as to what he's going to do up to the last second like NZ forwards.

I don't think his form has been all that different than the last two or three seasons. I don't see any reason why Schmidt won't continue picking him as first choice. The detail in Ireland's play means that he can stay one step ahead of opponents and get the jump on them, so to speak, when that might not be the case if he didn't know what he was going to do already

[Peg Leg]

Okay, so a lack of skill is an advantage towards selection; is that it? Well it’s a new one...


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You don't measure the utlity of a tractor in it's ability to handle bends. Stander is made for the Irish gameplan. Schmidt can rely on him to show up and truck it up the middle all day long. And IIRC Stander has said he's only encouraged to improve his handling at Munster(though maybe that's as it should be). So yeah, I reckon Schmidt looks at him and thinks those wheels will keep turning in any kind of mud and that's what I want.

He's a Lamborghini tractor though, 29 gears. 28 of those go forward.

[dropkick]

He has his favourites- always has had. But injury or circumstance has caused that to change too. And he’s not infallible anyway. He’s made his selection mistakes.

Does anyone believe that either Seanie or Rhys could not do a more than adequate job at 6 or 8 in place of CJ? Of course we don’t.

I wouldn't exchange CJ for either or even both together.
C.J. is far ahead of RR while SOB is much too injury prone.
Very few players could score the try he did against the All Blacks, for example.
And while Tadgh Furlong deservedly got most of the plaudits for the try Stander got against the English
last March, again most other forwards could not generate the momentum C.J. did power his way to the line.

Once more: I don’t see anything that Stander does as being a unique skill. Durability matters to contract payers at negotiation time- not so much to selectors when considering a team construction from currently fit options. You don’t say- “well he was injured a lot over the last couple of years- so I’ll pick the other less skilful but durable lad...”. You go for the best player.

Saying that Seanie is not suitable/ worthy of selection ahead of CJ merely because he is supposedly injury prone is in fact an implicit admission that he more than matches your man. If Seanie is available, he’s invariably a better option.

And Ruddock has all the attributes and ability to match Stander’s carrying and would be obviously so to everybody, if we in Leinster should seek to replicate Munster’s reliance on such carrying. Rhys’ versatility and our greater options mean we don’t see his undoubted ability in this two-dimensional ability.

That try against England was finished off well, but the real skill was in the combination of deception from Furlong, the pass from Bundee- and only then CJ’s carry. But without the subtlety his force would not have made the line. Equally I am convinced that either SOB or Ruddock would have scored the try also from the same position. Indeed many lessers players would have done so.

That’s me done on this.


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Stander has one important trait that shouldn't be overlooked. He scores lots of tries! Why, because he has a combination of acceleration and power to get over the line from a few meters out. That burst of speed and power is usually vital from scoring from close range. BOD used to do it all the time, Wallace, SOB, Sean Cronin etc.


I think James Ryan has that ability too. Devin Toner on the other hand accelerates at a glacial pace and so rarely scores tries.


It sounds like a fairly simplistic trait to have but there's nothing worse than seeing your team bash away from 5m out and getting nowhere. It gives the defenders a huge psychological boost and it's a big part of Ireland's style of possession play.


Stander in general is fairly one dimensional and could be a lot better if he learned to pass. Billy Vunipola is twice as effective since he learned to pass more. But stander does the basics well, is consistent and rarely gets injured so Schmidt is a fan. Maybe Doris can challenge him in a year or two or someone like Coombes in Munster.

[tomthefan]

Stander has one important trait that shouldn't be overlooked. He scores lots of tries!

And sometimes he makes them.
Stander knew exactly what he was doing here.
https://youtu.be/VBAZrASX25M?t=3655

[RAILWAY1]

CJ Stander's style of play fits Joe Schmidt's system so if it comes to a 50 /50 selection choice he will most likely get picked. Simon Zebo is a better player than some who got selected ahead of him but he couldn't / wouldn't play Joe's system.
We all have our opinions and our favourites but at the end of the day only one opinion persons counts and that is the head coach

[neiliog93]

I think post RWC-2019 (and with a less possession orientated coach) Conan will take over from CJ as Ireland's starting 8, especially as he matures. But for the next year it's CJ's jersey unless he suffers a major dip in form and/or Conan plays at his 2016-17 best pretty much every time he's on the pitch.

[paddyor]

CJ Stander's style of play fits Joe Schmidt's system so if it comes to a 50 /50 selection choice he will most likely get picked. Simon Zebo is a better player than some who got selected ahead of him but he couldn't / wouldn't play Joe's system.
We all have our opinions and our favourites but at the end of the day only one opinion persons counts and that is the head coach

Who?

[paddyor]

I think post RWC-2019 (and with a less possession orientated coach) Conan will take over from CJ as Ireland's starting 8, especially as he matures. But for the next year it's CJ's jersey unless he suffers a major dip in form and/or Conan plays at his 2016-17 best pretty much every time he's on the pitch.

I think you're wrong. I think it's Standers jersey until he loses his trick, even with a new coach. Conan basically needs to be more like Stander than vice versa.

[OTT]

Stander has been a phenomenal success for Ireland, he always shows up. One of our games in the 6 nations (cannot remember which one I know I posted on it in the match thread at the time) he was available to take on the ball 30 times. He tidies up most of our cr@p slow ball and does it all without any fuss. I have to say I love him as a player.

[deco]

I'd much prefer to see an Irish lad in "Munster" and Ireland rather than a SA journey man. It's not as if the talent isn't there (well maybe it isn't in "Munster"). JOAT.

[tomthefan]

I'd much prefer to see an Irish lad in "Munster" and Ireland rather than a SA journey man. It's not as if the talent isn't there (well maybe it isn't in "Munster"). JOAT.

Not clever or funny, pathetic is what your comment is.

[deco]

I'd much prefer to see an Irish lad in "Munster" and Ireland rather than a SA journey man. It's not as if the talent isn't there (well maybe it isn't in "Munster"). JOAT.

Not clever or funny, pathetic is what your comment is.

Hit a nerve? I've no problem in bringing in an outsider if needed, but if there's a local player who can do the job just as well - then play him.

You support a club that recruits 50% of it's players from outside - just to remain competitive - so your approval of depriving local players is hardly surprising. "Munster" have an "A" team chock full of local talent, but you still prefer to parachute players in above them to the senior team.

[tomthefan]

Your comments remind me of "No Irish need apply" type prejudice, only in reverse.

[ribs]

Eh for the Irish rugby side, it is exactly that “prejudice “ that is required, unless they are project players

[sunshiner1]

by tomthefan

Your comments remind me of "No Irish need apply" type prejudice, only in reverse.

+1

[dropkick]

I'd much prefer to see an Irish lad in "Munster" and Ireland rather than a SA journey man. It's not as if the talent isn't there (well maybe it isn't in "Munster"). JOAT.

Not clever or funny, pathetic is what your comment is.

Hit a nerve? I've no problem in bringing in an outsider if needed, but if there's a local player who can do the job just as well - then play him.

You support a club that recruits 50% of it's players from outside - just to remain competitive - so your approval of depriving local players is hardly surprising. "Munster" have an "A" team chock full of local talent, but you still prefer to parachute players in above them to the senior team.

It's clear that Munster hit your nerve sometime in the past.

[tomthefan]

Eh for the Irish rugby side, it is exactly that “prejudice “ that is required, unless they are project players

He was referring to project players in his remarks and pretty much targeting one in particular.