The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

[Ruckedtobits]

Absolutely got out of jail and Rennie probably chewed the ba#*s off his team for dropping 4 points by not keeping to their attacking pattern and allowing Munster to create their winning opportunity.

Tactically, Warriors were a league ahead of their opponents and even without some normal starters, they looked like they could cut open the Munster midfield when they choose. The Horne half-backs and Griggs looked top class and make breaks and carries which confounded the Munster D.

IMO, Stander is much further away from his form game than SO'B. PO'M was at his most aggressive - even towards the Ref. Kilcoyne was caught cheating at scrum time again and Cronin looks ahead of him in that department.

Munster missed Conway but Earls was buzzing. Haley lacks a yard of absolute pace and hasn't the physique to compensate. All in all a game Munster stole.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Stander has a habit of showing people up when you actually see his stats but I thought he was really quiet too. We don't really have anyone else like him so if he doesn't perform for Ireland then it could be a big problem.

[Oldschool]

Stander has a habit of showing people up when you actually see his stats but I thought he was really quiet too. We don't really have anyone else like him so if he doesn't perform for Ireland then it could be a big problem.

Joe has proven many times over that noone is indispensable. I wouldn't be worried if Stander isn't available.

[TerenureJim]

Stander has a habit of showing people up when you actually see his stats but I thought he was really quiet too. We don't really have anyone else like him so if he doesn't perform for Ireland then it could be a big problem.

Joe has proven many times over that noone is indispensable. I wouldn't be worried if Stander isn't available.

Joe also gets something else out of players in his system that can be missing when they wear another jersey, and back row isn't an area an irish team really ever needs to worry about.

[artaneboy]

Stander’s unique selling point to Ireland has much eroded in the last two years. If ever there was a ‘one trick pony’ it is he.

Carrying is a very important element of a back row option- but to be optimised it needs the potential for a pass. Stander rarely passes. He still very good at it, but teams can set themselves for his bullocking.

With Ruddock in fine form- both carrying and passing, there’s the obvious direct replacement. Or Joe could go for a balance in carrying across the locks and back rows. There’s many ways his strengths could be replaced and (I find it hard to say) is much more replaceable than POM.

O’Mahony really does have a USP in his defensive line out work for all his other weaknesses compared to the other options. No one else can do that as well or as consistently. I can see him rather than Stander being selected in Ireland’s ‘first team’ for that reason.


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[ronk]

Thought Keatley had an important role in the comeback.

Underrated player for Munster.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Stander has a habit of showing people up when you actually see his stats but I thought he was really quiet too. We don't really have anyone else like him so if he doesn't perform for Ireland then it could be a big problem.

Joe has proven many times over that noone is indispensable. I wouldn't be worried if Stander isn't available.

Joe also gets something else out of players in his system that can be missing when they wear another jersey, and back row isn't an area an irish team really ever needs to worry about.

I'm not worried, but him being a battering ram is a big part of how we play, so if he's not there/delivering then we probably have to adjust elsewhere. I haven't been impressed with him in any game this season but in his defence he's had a very heavy workload over the last month so hopefully having this weekend off and getting back into Camp Joe will get him going again.

[fourthirtythree]

He was in pretty poor form this time last year too. Did alright.

[janeymac08]

Stander’s unique selling point to Ireland has much eroded in the last two years. If ever there was a ‘one trick pony’ it is he.

Carrying is a very important element of a back row option- but to be optimised it needs the potential for a pass. Stander rarely passes. He still very good at it, but teams can set themselves for his bullocking.

With Ruddock in fine form- both carrying and passing, there’s the obvious direct replacement. Or Joe could go for a balance in carrying across the locks and back rows. There’s many ways his strengths could be replaced and (I find it hard to say) is much more replaceable than POM.

O’Mahony really does have a USP in his defensive line out work for all his other weaknesses compared to the other options. No one else can do that as well or as consistently. I can see him rather than Stander being selected in Ireland’s ‘first team’ for that reason.


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CJ's USP is his durability. Most other options mentioned (like Ruddock) are frequently injured.

Last season, CJ played 16 club and 11 internationals = 27. Ruddock played 11 club + 3 inter = 14 games. SOB is always injured. Even POM managed to play a total of 25 games last season. Conan is the most durable (23 club & 5 inter = 28).

[artaneboy]

Stander’s unique selling point to Ireland has much eroded in the last two years. If ever there was a ‘one trick pony’ it is he.

Carrying is a very important element of a back row option- but to be optimised it needs the potential for a pass. Stander rarely passes. He still very good at it, but teams can set themselves for his bullocking.

With Ruddock in fine form- both carrying and passing, there’s the obvious direct replacement. Or Joe could go for a balance in carrying across the locks and back rows. There’s many ways his strengths could be replaced and (I find it hard to say) is much more replaceable than POM.

O’Mahony really does have a USP in his defensive line out work for all his other weaknesses compared to the other options. No one else can do that as well or as consistently. I can see him rather than Stander being selected in Ireland’s ‘first team’ for that reason.


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CJ's USP is his durability. Most other options mentioned (like Ruddock) are frequently injured.

Last season, CJ played 16 club and 11 internationals = 27. Ruddock played 11 club + 3 inter = 14 games. SOB is always injured. Even POM managed to play a total of 25 games last season. Conan is the most durable (23 club & 5 inter = 28).

Durability is not a USP in this context. There are enough options to cover for anything Stander offers- and most of those alternatives have much more to their game. The fact is that Ruddock and SOB offer all CJ provides- and then more.

There’s no need for continuity to avoid injury-forced absence in an international team- certainly not in a back row. You pick the players available with the best mix of skills. Stander is not exceptional above his rivals in any aspect; they are clearly better than him in several.


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[tomthefan]

There are enough options to cover for anything Stander offers- and most of those alternatives have much more to their game. The fact is that Ruddock and SOB offer all CJ provides- and then more.

There’s no need for continuity to avoid injury-forced absence in an international team- certainly not in a back row. You pick the players available with the best mix of skills. Stander is not exceptional above his rivals in any aspect; they are clearly better than him in several.

Joe Schmidt clearly needs to watch more Leinster games then

[artaneboy]

There are enough options to cover for anything Stander offers- and most of those alternatives have much more to their game. The fact is that Ruddock and SOB offer all CJ provides- and then more.

There’s no need for continuity to avoid injury-forced absence in an international team- certainly not in a back row. You pick the players available with the best mix of skills. Stander is not exceptional above his rivals in any aspect; they are clearly better than him in several.

Joe Schmidt clearly needs to watch more Leinster games then

Whether he does or doesn’t won’t change the fact that Stander is limited and imminently replaceable.


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[johng]

But "Red Joe" Keeps selecting him

[paddyor]

Don't think Standers limitations are as obvious in an Ireland jersey given the variety of carrying options. In fact I'd go so far as to say his lack of a passing game might be considered a feature rather than a bug.

[artaneboy]

Don't think Standers limitations are as obvious in an Ireland jersey given the variety of carrying options. In fact I'd go so far as to say his lack of a passing game might be considered a feature rather than a bug.

Okay, so a lack of skill is an advantage towards selection; is that it? Well it’s a new one...


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[artaneboy]

But "Red Joe" Keeps selecting him

He has his favourites- always has had. But injury or circumstance has caused that to change too. And he’s not infallible anyway. He’s made his selection mistakes.

Does anyone believe that either Seanie or Rhys could not do a more than adequate job at 6 or 8 in place of CJ? Of course we don’t.

But do we have the same confidence at any of the candidates replacing O’Mahony’s defensive line-out prowess?


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[paddyor]

Okay, so a lack of skill is an advantage towards selection; is that it? Well it’s a new one...


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You don't measure the utlity of a tractor in it's ability to handle bends. Stander is made for the Irish gameplan. Schmidt can rely on him to show up and truck it up the middle all day long. And IIRC Stander has said he's only encouraged to improve his handling at Munster(though maybe that's as it should be). So yeah, I reckon Schmidt looks at him and thinks those wheels will keep turning in any kind of mud and that's what I want.

[artaneboy]

Okay, so a lack of skill is an advantage towards selection; is that it? Well it’s a new one...


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You don't measure the utlity of a tractor in it's ability to handle bends. Stander is made for the Irish gameplan. Schmidt can rely on him to show up and truck it up the middle all day long. And IIRC Stander has said he's only encouraged to improve his handling at Munster(though maybe that's as it should be). So yeah, I reckon Schmidt looks at him and thinks those wheels will keep turning in any kind of mud and that's what I want.

Really? Joe Schmidt- the man who always demands more from his players, would decide that he doesn’t want this player with a fairly strong- but limited ability to improve his skills...

C’mon man- put that shovel away!


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[tomthefan]

But "Red Joe" Keeps selecting him

He has his favourites- always has had. But injury or circumstance has caused that to change too. And he’s not infallible anyway. He’s made his selection mistakes.

Does anyone believe that either Seanie or Rhys could not do a more than adequate job at 6 or 8 in place of CJ? Of course we don’t.

I wouldn't exchange CJ for either or even both together.
C.J. is far ahead of RR while SOB is much too injury prone.
Very few players could score the try he did against the All Blacks, for example.
And while Tadgh Furlong deservedly got most of the plaudits for the try Stander got against the English
last March, again most other forwards could not generate the momentum C.J. did power his way to the line.

[paddyor]

Really? Joe Schmidt- the man who always demands more from his players, would decide that he doesn’t want this player with a fairly strong- but limited ability to improve his skills...

C’mon man- put that shovel away!


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You think Standers lying? I think the idea that Schmidt expects all his players to be fabulous all court ballers is nonsense. He's always accepted KEarneys limitations as a full back because Kearney generally delivers what he wants. I don't remember Mike Ross becoming a brilliant carrier or passer. He's not going to drop Stander because his passing/footwork etc aren't as good as Conans or anyone else for that matter. I'd go so far as to say he loves Stander for what he is and is quite content for him to specialise in being a cart horse.

This is a bit like the 2nd playmaker at 12 argument that crops up from time to time. If you're going to use the 12 to smash the gainline 9 times out of 10(we do and will) then the extra passing ability is surplus to requirements 9 times out of 10. Most of the time you're better off having the bosher taking out 2 defenders.