The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby cormac » July 5th, 2019, 10:18 am

Why would they need short-term cover at centre?
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby wixfjord » July 5th, 2019, 10:45 am

hugonaut wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Sherry was a really solid hooker when he came on the scene with a lovely throwing action. A pity he couldn't stay fit.

We've quite a few 'just below test level' hookers knocking around Irish rugby now.

I'd class Herring, Cronin, Scannell, Marshall in that bracket.

A big opportunity for someone with real class to usurp them and become our test starter for a long time once Best exits stage.

Kelleher, Tierney Martin, McBurney should see a big opportunity there.


I think it is very strange to include Sean Cronin in that bracket - he's played in almost 70 tests over the last decade. He's beaten the All Blacks twice, beaten South Africa and Argentina as a starter, and played in every Six Nations tournament since 2010 [bar 2017 when he was injured].

I don't think you can ignore Joe's huge emphasis on Rory Best's captaincy as a selection priority, because there have been long stretches when Cro was lighting up pitches around Europe and didn't get the starts that his form would have deserved in more openly contested positions.

To be frank, if you win the Leinster Player of the Year award, you're an exceptional player ... because you've beaten a load of other serious test players to the brass ring.


True maybe that's a bit unfair on Cronin. I'm perhaps being clouded by his failure/Schmidt's refusal to really nail him on at #2.

I'm sure Cronin will look back at that with a tinge of disappointment when it's all over, and I'm not sure it's down to Best's captaincy either.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » July 5th, 2019, 10:49 am

So football style transfer rumours have arrived then.

Clermont signed four World Cup jokers this week so I'd say we may see quite a lot of strange short term transfers over the next while, but not in Ireland of course.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Dave Cahill » July 5th, 2019, 12:11 pm

cormac wrote:Why would they need short-term cover at centre?


Because both their centres are in the training squad and may go to the world cup.

The problem isn't signing him (or someone good) its why they have to sign him and why signing him perpetuates the situation where they have to sign him. They don't really have anything below the starting XV in situ. Sam Arnold and Dan Goggin is about it - Sean French is in the academy alright, but is he a) really a centre and b) fit? So because they don't develop many centres of sufficient quality they have to sign them in which limits the opportunities to develop centres of sufficient quality which means they... and so forth
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Logorrhea » July 5th, 2019, 12:41 pm

Have to say I find the prospect of Munster scrambling for this signing pretty funny.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby FLIP » July 5th, 2019, 12:59 pm

What is it with Munster and fat backs with questionable ethics?
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby wixfjord » July 5th, 2019, 1:15 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
cormac wrote:Why would they need short-term cover at centre?


Because both their centres are in the training squad and may go to the world cup.

The problem isn't signing him (or someone good) its why they have to sign him and why signing him perpetuates the situation where they have to sign him. They don't really have anything below the starting XV in situ. Sam Arnold and Dan Goggin is about it - Sean French is in the academy alright, but is he a) really a centre and b) fit? So because they don't develop many centres of sufficient quality they have to sign them in which limits the opportunities to develop centres of sufficient quality which means they... and so forth


There is no chance of Rory Scannell going bar an injury crisis and even Farrell might not make it.

That would leave them with Scannell, Arnold, Goggin, Daly and whatever academy guy is available as well as Tyler and JJ who both play 12.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby leinsterforever » July 5th, 2019, 1:21 pm

Naively, I thought Munster might have moved past the short-termism of unnecessary temporary signings. Meh, I'm glad Leinster don't go down that road anyway.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby cormac » July 5th, 2019, 1:32 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
cormac wrote:Why would they need short-term cover at centre?


Because both their centres are in the training squad and may go to the world cup.

The problem isn't signing him (or someone good) its why they have to sign him and why signing him perpetuates the situation where they have to sign him. They don't really have anything below the starting XV in situ. Sam Arnold and Dan Goggin is about it - Sean French is in the academy alright, but is he a) really a centre and b) fit? So because they don't develop many centres of sufficient quality they have to sign them in which limits the opportunities to develop centres of sufficient quality which means they... and so forth


God forbid they actually have to give game-time to some of their squad players.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby leinsterforever » July 5th, 2019, 1:42 pm

The ironic thing is that the prospect of hardly getting a look in as a young player probably was a big factor in the lad Matt More they poached heading back to SA.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Dave Cahill » July 5th, 2019, 2:31 pm

wixfjord wrote:
There is no chance of Rory Scannell going bar an injury crisis


Thats the thing though - Ireland squads have had a fair old body count over the last four years especially at centre. If you accept that Ringrose and Henshaw are Irelands first choice centre pairing - in the 21 tests against other tier 1 sides Ireland have played since they became Irelands first choice centre pairing they've played together in the centre 6 times - plus the game against England last season when Henshaw started at FB. Addison is already injured.

Munster can't plan for the best case scenario - where Farrell and Scannell are available to them - they have to plan for something approaching the worst case. Now, they might be going the wrong way about it, but they still have to do it.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Dave Cahill » July 5th, 2019, 2:37 pm

cormac wrote:
God forbid they actually have to give game-time to some of their squad players.


They don't, they never have. Unless a young player rips the jersey off the still warm corpse on an incumbent, he ain't getting it. Thats the Munster way and it doesn't look like it will be changing anytime soon, so there isn't much point in us wringing our hands about it.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » July 5th, 2019, 2:38 pm

Doesn't that indicate how unlikely it is that Scannell will travel? We've had injuries and yet he still hasn't been needed.

Tbf though, he'll be away all summer at the very least and they don't have great depth in the backs so can see why they'd want someone. I don't think any province should be allowed to spend big money on someone who'll only be there a short time though. Every team will be missing players so just get on with it. I'd suggest that this is the kind of time that it actually makes sense to move players around the provinces, someone like Gavin Mullin is unlikely to make it for us but a short term deal down there could be great for all concerned. If it doesn't work out then there's no real harm done to anyone.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby wixfjord » July 5th, 2019, 3:21 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
There is no chance of Rory Scannell going bar an injury crisis


Thats the thing though - Ireland squads have had a fair old body count over the last four years especially at centre. If you accept that Ringrose and Henshaw are Irelands first choice centre pairing - in the 21 tests against other tier 1 sides Ireland have played since they became Irelands first choice centre pairing they've played together in the centre 6 times - plus the game against England last season when Henshaw started at FB. Addison is already injured.

Munster can't plan for the best case scenario - where Farrell and Scannell are available to them - they have to plan for something approaching the worst case. Now, they might be going the wrong way about it, but they still have to do it.


Addison is back in training.
Farrell is already on the cusp of not going so realistically you'll need three injuries before Scannell is considered.

In that unlikely event Munster would still have, Arnold, Goggin, Daly, Tyler and JJ, along with academy options.

I think you're mistaking 'worst case' for 'the nuclear option' here Dave!
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Keith » July 5th, 2019, 3:35 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
cormac wrote:
God forbid they actually have to give game-time to some of their squad players.


They don't, they never have. Unless a young player rips the jersey off the still warm corpse on an incumbent, he ain't getting it. Thats the Munster way and it doesn't look like it will be changing anytime soon, so there isn't much point in us wringing our hands about it.

Don't worry there might be another cara cup next year in the US where they can give the lads a bit of game time.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby leinsterforever » July 5th, 2019, 10:47 pm

I'm a bit bemused by the whole concept of signing players on contracts that don't last to the end of a season. To me, you should reserve it for when you have your first three options all injured in one position. And by 'one position' I don't mean things like lock or backrow. I mean one jersey number. If Leinster had Furlong, Porter and Bent all long-term injured, then I could get on board with signing someone short-term to supplement Abdaladze, Clarkson and Aungier. If van der Flier and Connors got significant injuries on top of Leavy being unavailable, maybe someone coming in for a few months to compete with Penny at openside would be a good idea. Outside of that type of thing I think it's counter-productive cos you need to build towards the end of the season and knock-out games with the players who'll actually be playing in them. If the squad is lacking and needs a signing, then you should sign someone till the end of the campaign.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Morf » July 6th, 2019, 2:57 am

leinsterforever wrote:I'm a bit bemused by the whole concept of signing players on contracts that don't last to the end of a season. To me, you should reserve it for when you have your first three options all injured in one position. And by 'one position' I don't mean things like lock or backrow. I mean one jersey number. If Leinster had Furlong, Porter and Bent all long-term injured, then I could get on board with signing someone short-term to supplement Abdaladze, Clarkson and Aungier. If van der Flier and Connors got significant injuries on top of Leavy being unavailable, maybe someone coming in for a few months to compete with Penny at openside would be a good idea. Outside of that type of thing I think it's counter-productive cos you need to build towards the end of the season and knock-out games with the players who'll actually be playing in them. If the squad is lacking and needs a signing, then you should sign someone till the end of the campaign.


Or dip into AIL . . .

Coaches don't have the luxury of prioritising medium term development in that fashion especially with so little recent silverware, attendances to keep up, fickle fans to woo with more W's in the column and debts to pay.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby leinsterforever » July 6th, 2019, 11:54 am

Morf wrote:
leinsterforever wrote:I'm a bit bemused by the whole concept of signing players on contracts that don't last to the end of a season. To me, you should reserve it for when you have your first three options all injured in one position. And by 'one position' I don't mean things like lock or backrow. I mean one jersey number. If Leinster had Furlong, Porter and Bent all long-term injured, then I could get on board with signing someone short-term to supplement Abdaladze, Clarkson and Aungier. If van der Flier and Connors got significant injuries on top of Leavy being unavailable, maybe someone coming in for a few months to compete with Penny at openside would be a good idea. Outside of that type of thing I think it's counter-productive cos you need to build towards the end of the season and knock-out games with the players who'll actually be playing in them. If the squad is lacking and needs a signing, then you should sign someone till the end of the campaign.


Or dip into AIL . . .

Coaches don't have the luxury of prioritising medium term development in that fashion especially with so little recent silverware, attendances to keep up, fickle fans to woo with more W's in the column and debts to pay.


I suppose there's that element to it. Bastareaud in the team will probably get a bigger gate than if it's two of Arnold, Goggin, Daly and McHenry in the centre. Still don't think it helps them win trophies - and could actually be counter-productive. What happens if Farrell or Scannell get injured when Bastareaud's headed of to NY and the back ups haven't been building through the season?
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby ronk » July 7th, 2019, 1:30 am

Weird prospective signing.

Good player but an acquired taste and someone you fit rather than someone who fits you. That's not something Munster are good at and little sense for a short term signing on his way to semi retirement.

Ulster have made early season only signings but that was based on covering a need.

Will Munster fans warm to a controversial player who's playing a few nothing games to keep warm for his next gig. They'd turn on him fast.

Lots of ways it could go wrong (leaving a sour taste) and trivial upside.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby sunshiner1 » July 7th, 2019, 11:51 am

Munster need to be told no. They're acting like the spoiled children of the IRFU who see the next shiny object and want it regardless of if it works or not. Nucifora needs to put the foot down.
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