Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[CiaranIrl]

Has anyone mentioned that Frankie Sheahan is James Cronin's agent?

https://m.independent.ie/business/new-c ... 33521.html

"As part of his business, Frankie also runs a sports management agency, representing professional rugby players and sports stars such as Munster's Stephen Archer and James Cronin."

[offshorerules]

Going way, way back, there were very strong rumours of a Leinster and an ulster player being unofficially banned and officially ‘injured’ for a year circa 2000 iirc. Not sure any of the provinces are without sin but my previous comment was reflecting on the situation at Munster seemingly becoming more frequent.

[wixfjord]

Has anyone mentioned that Frankie Sheahan is James Cronin's agent?

https://m.independent.ie/business/new-c ... 33521.html

"As part of his business, Frankie also runs a sports management agency, representing professional rugby players and sports stars such as Munster's Stephen Archer and James Cronin."

[neiliog93]

Proper point Dave. I think, mostly, doping is driven by the individual and not a club policy (except perhaps Juventus FC and SA Rugby). So to take Munster Rugby in context, they are definitely a clean club, but they do encourage a do whatever it takes spirit, among perhaps less talented players. Coupled with proximity to Irelands best and most successful sports science campus, UL, we have a plausaible(sp?) deniability for an increased incidence of drug use in Irish rugby. I am reluctant to shine the same light on my beloved Leinster, but I am inclined to think that drug use is very much player led, and the Leinster dressing room would have a zero tolerance policy. The Munster dressing room, well, see exhibits a) Grobeler b) Sheehan c) Erasmus d) Van Graan. I am not saying it is policy but I am saying a large proportion of the Munster set up have been exposed to drug use, and its attendant successes. I am also not saying if it is right or wrong! Doping is a fact of rugby, and I think it might be helpful if there was an eyes wide open view(?) of our sport. It is important in these discussions I think though to highlight player agency but perhaps not attribute righteous blame as such?

I am also very confident that there is no "systemic" problem with drug abuse in Irish rugby. It is certainly not propagated by any authority or institution. But I would believe that a small number players (especially in the earlier years when testing was more lax) have taken it upon themselves to dope. It is present in every high level sport to varying degrees and to think "rugby's values" somehow make it immune to doping is naive and conceited. Also, look at the size and power of some of these guys..

[Dave Cahill]

Has anyone mentioned that Frankie Sheahan is James Cronin's agent?

https://m.independent.ie/business/new-c ... 33521.html

"As part of his business, Frankie also runs a sports management agency, representing professional rugby players and sports stars such as Munster's Stephen Archer and James Cronin."

No he isn't. Cronin is with Navy Blue. Frankie gave up player agency shortly after that article (from 6 years ago!) as there was more money and less hassle working as a Speakers bureau

[IanD]

Proper point Dave. I think, mostly, doping is driven by the individual and not a club policy (except perhaps Juventus FC and SA Rugby). So to take Munster Rugby in context, they are definitely a clean club, but they do encourage a do whatever it takes spirit, among perhaps less talented players. Coupled with proximity to Irelands best and most successful sports science campus, UL, we have a plausaible(sp?) deniability for an increased incidence of drug use in Irish rugby. I am reluctant to shine the same light on my beloved Leinster, but I am inclined to think that drug use is very much player led, and the Leinster dressing room would have a zero tolerance policy. The Munster dressing room, well, see exhibits a) Grobeler b) Sheehan c) Erasmus d) Van Graan. I am not saying it is policy but I am saying a large proportion of the Munster set up have been exposed to drug use, and its attendant successes. I am also not saying if it is right or wrong! Doping is a fact of rugby, and I think it might be helpful if there was an eyes wide open view(?) of our sport. It is important in these discussions I think though to highlight player agency but perhaps not attribute righteous blame as such?

I am also very confident that there is no "systemic" problem with drug abuse in Irish rugby. It is certainly not propagated by any authority or institution. But I would believe that a small number players (especially in the earlier years when testing was more lax) have taken it upon themselves to dope. It is present in every high level sport to varying degrees and to think "rugby's values" somehow make it immune to doping is naive and conceited. Also, look at the size and power of some of these guys..

We will never know because we don't test Schools Rugby.


https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 43866.html


Sport Ireland met IRFU to discuss drug testing schools rugby players


IRFU and Sport Ireland officials met last year to discuss the potential to carry out drug testing in schools rugby, new documents show.

The discussion was highlighted in the minutes of a Sport Ireland board meeting in April 2018, obtained by the Sunday Independent under Freedom of Information. They show Sport Ireland chief executive John Treacy updated board members about a meeting with the IRFU.

Mr Treacy told the board on April 17 last year, the meeting was "to discuss the potential for future anti-doping testing to [take] place within schools rugby". Sport Ireland considers rugby to be a greater doping risk than athletics. Testing on rugby players increased almost 60pc in the past two years. The IRFU says rugby enforces stringent drug-testing standards. However, while it does facilitate schools rugby matches, the IRFU does not govern the schools game.

This means Sport Ireland is not permitted to carry out drug testing at this level.


Does anyone seriously believe that with no testing Schools rugby is clean?

The amazingly arrogant thing is I read or hear about failed tests in South Africa for school boys at Craven Week and people (Off the Ball) use it to hammer South African Rugby but at least they are testing.

I would suggest that testing has to happen to protect children from over zealous adults who provide them illegal drugs never mind protecting the game.

[Up Wexford]

Interesting stuff man.
We are all definitely aware of Craven Week and I think we should all take it as a worst case scenario. Obviously we all have our blue tinted glasses on but I think Craven week and South Africa is the trough of drug abuse in rugby and maybe Ireland (poor international record, weak quarter final team) the peak and everyone else distributed in between. Irish schools rugby is definitely a high pressure environment, and a win at all costs endeavour similar to Munster. However acquiring PEDs is a difficult process that requires savvy, connections, and large amounts of disposable income that may not be available to your rogue Michaels student, no matter how privileged. So perhaps it is reasonable to assume that Leinster Senior Cup team doping is ineffective and sporadic at best, perhaps creatine and uneducated testosterone abuse by the occasional student, over a short term period, which probably would not result in South African lock style gains. It is not non existent, but perhaps it is not as prevalent as would require clamping down on.
Interestingly, the famed Seattle Seahawks Superbowl team (of whom I was a huge fan), their defensive secondary cohort - the Legion of Boom! - were all pinged for Ritalin abuse about four or five years ago. Only a one or two game ban as is usual in the sports entertainment NFL, but Ritalin and assosciated amphetmines increase focus and ability to read patterns, eg defensive lines. Ritalin and Equasym would be fairly prevalent in the Irish private school system, for a number of reasons.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Proper point Dave. I think, mostly, doping is driven by the individual and not a club policy (except perhaps Juventus FC and SA Rugby). So to take Munster Rugby in context, they are definitely a clean club, but they do encourage a do whatever it takes spirit, among perhaps less talented players. Coupled with proximity to Irelands best and most successful sports science campus, UL, we have a plausaible(sp?) deniability for an increased incidence of drug use in Irish rugby. I am reluctant to shine the same light on my beloved Leinster, but I am inclined to think that drug use is very much player led, and the Leinster dressing room would have a zero tolerance policy. The Munster dressing room, well, see exhibits a) Grobeler b) Sheehan c) Erasmus d) Van Graan. I am not saying it is policy but I am saying a large proportion of the Munster set up have been exposed to drug use, and its attendant successes. I am also not saying if it is right or wrong! Doping is a fact of rugby, and I think it might be helpful if there was an eyes wide open view(?) of our sport. It is important in these discussions I think though to highlight player agency but perhaps not attribute righteous blame as such?

I am also very confident that there is no "systemic" problem with drug abuse in Irish rugby. It is certainly not propagated by any authority or institution. But I would believe that a small number players (especially in the earlier years when testing was more lax) have taken it upon themselves to dope. It is present in every high level sport to varying degrees and to think "rugby's values" somehow make it immune to doping is naive and conceited. Also, look at the size and power of some of these guys..

Well, apparently the percentage of academy players who are asthmatic is far above the national average.

[Up Wexford]

Well definitely an asthma diagnosis for a fit athelete would be a red flag in terms of performance enhancement. It is very easy to get a salbutamol script from your doctor, for a variety of reasons. Salbutamol is the active ingredient in Ventolin, the commonly percieved blue inhaler indiscriminately prescribed for asthma. It helps to open your airways and get more oxegen into the lungs, to run faster and sprint longer, and if you were an asthmatic to breathe better when your chest is very tight. It has very few side effects and the major side effect of not having salbutamol to hand is death so it is very understandable as to why doctors are lax in prescribing it. We have all seen the Frankie Sheehan and Peter Stringer video of them horsing heaps of ventolin aerosol into themselves on the sideline before coming on in an early 00's game. Again, this is chump change, a blast of salbutamol on the sideline will increase your lung capacity by 20% for maybe 30mins, it wont make your pass sharper or your scrum tighter as such.The Chris Froome/Lance asthma thing is far more effective in an endurance sport like cycling, and also those guys were cutting edge in terms of PED use, so they would have been using salbutamol at a certain dose to work in concert with various other drugs in their system. Essentially all PED bulking use stems from body building shows which are unregulated and PED endurance use from cycling which as a long and successful history of use. So I guess to answer your question, if a fit healthy Leinster Schools rugby player has an asthma diagnosis that is very reasonable, if he his huffing ventolin before a match he is using it to increase his lung capacity before a game and should be sanctioned.

[Up Wexford]

Does anyone seriously believe that with no testing Schools rugby is clean?

The amazingly arrogant thing is I read or hear about failed tests in South Africa for school boys at Craven Week and people (Off the Ball) use it to hammer South African Rugby but at least they are testing.

I would suggest that testing has to happen to protect children from over zealous adults who provide them illegal drugs never mind protecting the game.

Big agreement there! These guys might be super talented but they are just kids, naive and clueless for the most part

[neiliog93]

About 10-15% of the general population suffer from exercise-induced asthma but with the demands of professional sport, this rises to up to 50% for high level athletes. If you beat the cr@p out of your lungs with regular, intense aerobic and anaerobic demands, there is a good chance you'll develop some level of lingering inflammation and asthma. I wouldn't read too much into a high incidence of asthma amongst academy members.

As regards the Leinster schools game, I was reasonably recently involved in a cup team with a strong school. I am not saying there is no doping, but it is definitely not systematic or in any way encouraged, enabled, or even wilfully ignored by the schools. Thus, it is not in any way comparable to South Africa, where the availability of anabolic compounds over-the-counter in pharmacies and the involvement of parents and coaches in some of the doping cases is well documented.

That said, have some individual Leinster schoolboys sourced black market steroids for themselves in a desperate act to get bigger? Based on statistical probability and rate of steroid use, I am sure they have, especially looking at the size of some of them at 17/18 years of age - but it is not the 'norm' or in any way systematic, unlike in South Africa.

[cormac]

Sam Arnold and Conor Oliver set to join Connacht according to the 42.ie

https://www.the42.ie/arnold-oliver-muns ... 4-May2020/

[neiliog93]

Sam Arnold and Conor Oliver set to join Connacht according to the 42.ie

https://www.the42.ie/arnold-oliver-muns ... 4-May2020/

That makes sense - both had done well before van Graan's arrival. With all the proposed rule changes, there might also be more and more room for the smaller, out-and-out seven type of player, which Oliver exemplifies.

[Dave Cahill]

Sam Arnold hits the triple crown

[johng]

A small number of people have done 3 provinces. Keatley. Ronnie McCormac. John Cooney. Sean Cronin. Eoin Reddan. John Fogarty. How many more? AFAIK no one has done all four.

[cormac]

A small number of people have done 3 provinces. Keatley. Ronnie McCormac. John Cooney. Sean Cronin. Eoin Reddan. John Fogarty. How many more? AFAIK no one has done all four.

James Downey.

[Dave Cahill]

They need to change the law about scoring against the base of the post to remove it as a scoring option. It was fine back when Fat VIcky was on the throne and it was a couple of towels strapped around the posts with belts - but with the massive advertising hoardings on steroids that they are now the law has been rendered both obsolete and ridiculous.

And World Rugby have done so - base of the post is no longer part of the try line

[Morf]

A small number of people have done 3 provinces. Keatley. Ronnie McCormac. John Cooney. Sean Cronin. Eoin Reddan. John Fogarty. How many more? AFAIK no one has done all four.

Ian Nagle did 3 if you count a loan spell at Ulster.

[hugonaut]

A small number of people have done 3 provinces. Keatley. Ronnie McCormac. John Cooney. Sean Cronin. Eoin Reddan. John Fogarty. How many more? AFAIK no one has done all four.

Ian Nagle did 3 if you count a loan spell at Ulster.

Good shout on Nagle, I had forgotten him. Funny, Ronnie McCormack is always the one I think of first. I had completely forgotten that Redser spent time at Connacht.

With regards to the 'Munster, The Money Pit Province', I was looking down through their fixture list there with an eye on the bottom line. They had played three of their four Musgrave Park games before the suspension of the season and only four games in Thomond [in the league, that is]. They will miss out on three regular season Thomand Park fixtures and only one Musgrave Park match.

Those Muzzer games had an average gate of approx. 7,250 compared to an average gate in Thomond [for the Pro14 of] approx. 16,280 – the game against us drives up the average a lot, but that's still a big difference. Missing out on three Thomond games is going to put a hole in their piggy bank. They will be paying huge bucks to de Allende and Snyman with contracts that they signed at the top of the market so they could be cropping their squad again.

[blockhead]

Munster count season ticket holders in their attendance figures even if they dont turn up. So in essence they've already bagged most of that money. They will lose out on pints and hangsangwich sales though.