Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I wonder if Saint Joey is regretting not taking Joe’s advice - imagine him and Cooney together

Joe didn't give him any advice remember? They just went for a cup of tea and Joe kept his mouth shut as Joey pined for a move.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Because he has so much credit in the bank Earls is entitled to a Mulligan. He had an absolute shocker last night. Lets hope it was a one off as it would be sad to see him drop to the status of an occasional stand-in.

I'd be pretty worried about him tbh. He was very poor at the World Cup (bar that incredible chase back against Japan) but I would put that on Joe more than Earls because he didn't look fit and there were obvious candidates who should have been ahead of him. Said it before but I think some of the criticism with regard to selection in Japan is more to do with hindsight, but not in Earls' case. You'd imagine he'd be sharp by now though and he really isn't. When he first broke through his major weakness was biting in in defence and I think it's rearing its head again because he doesn't trust his pace. He's making a lot of errors and lets be honest he's not doing anything in attack. He was 32 in October and it's much harder for a winger to cope with the passing of time than it is for a workhorse forward so I'm not sure we're going to see the best of him any time soon, and certainly not consistently.

That reminds me that for all the criticism Joey right copped last night, I thought it was harsh to blame him for the forward pass to Earls. Earls overran him and could have done more to stop Joey thinking he was still an option.

Not that he's their saviour or anything but the way Munster treat Healy sums up what's wrong with the way the develop players. If Munster had Leo and Lancaster at the helm then there's no way he wouldn't have been trusted more in the circumstances.

[Oldschool]

Yeah I mean Neil Cronin really lit the place up when he came on.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
That aside, it looks like you reckon a player should be able to prove himself in five minutes and if he doesn't then he's out - Very Munster thinking like of you.

[Oldschool]

Because he has so much credit in the bank Earls is entitled to a Mulligan. He had an absolute shocker last night. Lets hope it was a one off as it would be sad to see him drop to the status of an occasional stand-in.

I'd be pretty worried about him tbh. He was very poor at the World Cup (bar that incredible chase back against Japan) but I would put that on Joe more than Earls because he didn't look fit and there were obvious candidates who should have been ahead of him. Said it before but I think some of the criticism with regard to selection in Japan is more to do with hindsight, but not in Earls' case. You'd imagine he'd be sharp by now though and he really isn't. When he first broke through his major weakness was biting in in defence and I think it's rearing its head again because he doesn't trust his pace. He's making a lot of errors and lets be honest he's not doing anything in attack. He was 32 in October and it's much harder for a winger to cope with the passing of time than it is for a workhorse forward so I'm not sure we're going to see the best of him any time soon, and certainly not consistently.

That reminds me that for all the criticism Joey right copped last night, I thought it was harsh to blame him for the forward pass to Earls. Earls overran him and could have done more to stop Joey thinking he was still an option.

Not that he's their saviour or anything but the way Munster treat Healy sums up what's wrong with the way the develop players. If Munster had Leo and Lancaster at the helm then there's no way he wouldn't have been trusted more in the circumstances.

Sadly though there was also a lot of foresight in some of the criticisms. Earls was the least of our RWC problems.
Carberry's first real game in yonks where (we have to assume) he was fully fit, where his forwards were absolutely taking a pasting, his SH doing nothing to help, what did people expect.
It's like expecting Cronin coming on for 5mins to turn the game the game on its' head. It's laughable.
Joey may well be regretting his decision to move South but it should never have been allowed to happen in the first place.
The only things he was going to learn by moving to Munster were:-
1. That it was a bad move.
2. His development, as a player was going to cease.
Classic case of denial by all involved.
Until Munster hire a head coach that suits Ireland's playing style (not Munster's) and until Munster accept that fact then Ireland will be running on 3 cylinders for the foreseeable future.
Just to be clear a SA coach does not and never will fit the bill, it's not in their DNA. That Munster have appointed two SA coaches in succession defies logic.
And if you want proof (just to spike the shyte before it splatters all over the place) not even a RWC winning coach could sort out Munster or even come close.

[hugonaut]

Because he has so much credit in the bank Earls is entitled to a Mulligan. He had an absolute shocker last night. Lets hope it was a one off as it would be sad to see him drop to the status of an occasional stand-in.

I'd be pretty worried about him tbh. He was very poor at the World Cup (bar that incredible chase back against Japan) but I would put that on Joe more than Earls because he didn't look fit and there were obvious candidates who should have been ahead of him. Said it before but I think some of the criticism with regard to selection in Japan is more to do with hindsight, but not in Earls' case. You'd imagine he'd be sharp by now though and he really isn't. When he first broke through his major weakness was biting in in defence and I think it's rearing its head again because he doesn't trust his pace. He's making a lot of errors and lets be honest he's not doing anything in attack. He was 32 in October and it's much harder for a winger to cope with the passing of time than it is for a workhorse forward so I'm not sure we're going to see the best of him any time soon, and certainly not consistently.

That reminds me that for all the criticism Joey right copped last night, I thought it was harsh to blame him for the forward pass to Earls. Earls overran him and could have done more to stop Joey thinking he was still an option.

Not that he's their saviour or anything but the way Munster treat Healy sums up what's wrong with the way the develop players. If Munster had Leo and Lancaster at the helm then there's no way he wouldn't have been trusted more in the circumstances.

Earls has had a great run but as you say he's 32 now. It's old for a winger. Flat-out old. He's got a contract through to the end of next season [signed in Oct 2018 at the peak of his powers] but he's obviously in decline. There's lots of precedent for it: Hickie quit at 31, Shaggy played his last test at 31, Tommy Bowe played his last test rugby a couple of weeks after his 33rd birthday, Andrew Trimble just a little longer.

Bowe [2008 & 2010] and Trimble [2014] won Irish Player of the Year over the course of their careers, like Earls. They're his direct peers. Horgan and Hickie were a little before his time, but they were both Lions, and all five of them are in the top 10 Irish try-scorers of all time. That's Earls' peer group essentially – lads who have been the best Irish wingers of the quarter-century of professionalism.

Three of those lads [Timble, Bowe and Horgan] lost pace on the job but they had size and physicality to fall back on. Earls doesn't. That 32/33 age mark was a natural ending for all of them. One of them went before he was pushed [Hickie], one of them was pushed [Horgan], one of them was brought back well after he should have been pushed [Bowe] and one ended more or less how he would have wished [Trimble].

To be frank, I'm not too bothered by what Munster do selection-wise, but I am concerned with how Farrell starts off for Ireland. If Earls was playing really well, he should be picked. But he's not playing well, and he hasn't been playing well, and he's into what all his predecessors have experienced as the final 12 months of their test careers. So he shouldn't be picked.

[deco]

The assumption that Munster should be a top tier team is what's wrong. They had a golden period in the noughties, born out of club successes in the AIL. Prior to that they were gash for almost the entire amateur era excepting the flourish of AIL titles at the end.
Apart from their golden generation, Munster have failed to bring international quality players through in sufficient numbers and this will continue.
They should be used as a development team for Ireland and the IRFU should cease hemorrhaging money trying buy them silverware.

They're the Blackburn Rovers of rugby.

[blockhead]

Lets not forget that they reached the semis of both competitions for the last 2 seasons.
So if Munster are "Sh!te" then what does it say about all the other teams bar us, Sarries and Racing?
And what does it say about the competitions that we are so proud of winning?

Nah. Munster have been one of the very best teams in Europe and the Pro14 for a number of years, bit of a gap up to the very top 3 or so teams but still their record is better than everyone else.
Maybe they maxed out when reaching all those semis and now they realise that Van gramm is not up to it. Especially when you see the progress that Ulster have made with McFarland with less time and resources.
Maybe he has lost the players.

[wixfjord]

The assumption that Munster should be a top tier team is what's wrong. They had a golden period in the noughties, born out of club successes in the AIL. Prior to that they were gash for almost the entire amateur era excepting the flourish of AIL titles at the end.
Apart from their golden generation, Munster have failed to bring international quality players through in sufficient numbers and this will continue.
They should be used as a development team for Ireland and the IRFU should cease hemorrhaging money trying buy them silverware.

They're the Blackburn Rovers of rugby.

Ah come on, that's fan site nonsense.

[ronk]

If Ross Byrne turned in the performance that Joey did tonight we'd (rightly) crucify him. When his forwards aren't going forward he can really lose all shape in a backline.

In mitigation, it's his first start of the season and only his second game under the new coaching regime. I agree with you based on this game, but I'd expect him to get better.

True, but it's not a one off. Carbery has played a few shockers or just generally not got the backline humming. He's developed his kicking game out of hand and off the tee. Super, he's trying to be Ronan O'Gara.

[sunshiner1]

How did Knox do? I've liked what I've seen so far but missed the game.

[arsebiscuits1]

How did Knox do? I've liked what I've seen so far but missed the game.

Scrummaged fairly well against McGrath. Won a penalty at one stage. Dominated very few collisions though.

[paddyor]

Lets not forget that they reached the semis of both competitions for the last 2 seasons.
So if Munster are "Sh!te" then what does it say about all the other teams bar us, Sarries and Racing?
And what does it say about the competitions that we are so proud of winning?

Nah. Munster have been one of the very best teams in Europe and the Pro14 for a number of years, bit of a gap up to the very top 3 or so teams but still their record is better than everyone else.
Maybe they maxed out when reaching all those semis and now they realise that Van gramm is not up to it. Especially when you see the progress that Ulster have made with McFarland with less time and resources.
Maybe he has lost the players.

It's 1 final and 5 semi finals in 3 years and in all but one of those semi finals they went out to the eventual winner. That looks to be their high water mark though, like no one is going to argue they should have won those games(though an element of them choking in the final in 2017)

[ronk]

If Munster don't get out of their HC group, they should give serious consideration to sacking van Graan at the end of the season.

[Oldschool]

If Munster don't get out of their HC group, they should give serious consideration to sacking van Graan at the end of the season.

And do what though.
Hire another SA coach?
Assuming that is not what you have in mind, what/who are thinking of?
Joe Schmidt, now that would be an interesting appointment, I doubt he'd be interested.

[ronk]

Hire a coach who will do what they need. They'll be technically strong, who will build systems and develop all the players.

[cormac]

Hire a coach who will do what they need. They'll be technically strong, who will build systems and develop all the players.

Matt O'Connor is probably available

[ronk]

Hire a coach who will do what they need. They'll be technically strong, who will build systems and develop all the players.

Matt O'Connor is probably available

Same same different

[Xanthippe]

If Ross Byrne turned in the performance that Joey did tonight we'd (rightly) crucify him. When his forwards aren't going forward he can really lose all shape in a backline.

In mitigation, it's his first start of the season and only his second game under the new coaching regime. I agree with you based on this game, but I'd expect him to get better.

I don’t know Hugo - there’s no competition down there for him to pit himself against. I fear he’s already gone backwards in his development.

[hugonaut]

It's easy to sanguine when you don't support the team in question, but I think the Munster organisation would be crazy to indulge in any more coaching turnover. I don't think it's on the cards at all.

They've a number of guys with serious coaching experience at test level on long-term deals: van Graan re-signed until the end of the 2021-22 season [3 seasons], Rowntree the same and Larkham signed on a four year deal. Two of them have just started; the season only kicked off at the end of September and Rowntree only joined in November. They're still in the very early days as a staff.

van Graan cut down the senior squad number from 48 to 43 for this season; he let a number of guys go at the end of last season that he wasn't using or that were injured, and took a good few salaries off the costs. That sounds like housekeeping, but it's an important part of managing their squad. Their NIQ number is the lowest it has been in my memory: just Arno Botha and Chris Cloete at the moment. That's a significant positive. He's giving young guys like Calvin Nash, Shane Daly, Gavin Coombes and Jack O'Sullivan games – maybe not as much gametime as he should, but way more than he was giving them last year. Another positive.

He has done a lot of things right over the last six or seven months. Since the start of the season he's struggled with players coming back from a big tournament [some of them carrying their dirty form with them] and having a completely new coaching package to install. That's a tough ask and it's not unusual to struggle a little. His province's fanbase are hyper-critical and unrealistic [being kind], and he'd do well just to cut out that yapping white noise. In my opinion, he needs to stop whinging about not being able to select the same players week-in, week-out. This is his third season in the job and he knows the deal now, so stop making excuses. But that's really the only negative thing I'd say at the moment. I think he just needs to bite down on the proverbial gumshield and keep going forward.

[ronk]

RWC disruption is real and you can see that it could affect them.

But that's also the problem. He's not buying into provinces being different from clubs.

He's been around long enough to understand how to fit within the system rather than keep trying to stretch it. They didnt have that many problems with players gone, they still signed 2 jokers that weren't essential.

This is a fundamental issue that doesn't relate to whether Munster are winning, it's about whether he's the right coach to deliver on IRFU strategy. Munster can't afford a guy who develops because he has to, they need someone who really wants to improve players and will push the IRFU to allow him to develop more.