Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby paddyor » November 6th, 2019, 5:29 am

Neither Hart or Williams are HEC level SHs and barely P14 tbh. The Matheson signing showed the weakness/stupidity of the NIQ rules. Williams has never looked anything near the required level for the irish team but Munster kept him because they had to. Simialrly Munster signed Hart because he was IQ but aside from one appearance in MO's team of the week a few years ago has he ever looked like a potential international. You can point to Pieenaar being moved on for cooney being the big win but he could've moved south.

It's probably a good thing they signed Matheson and admitted defeat on the Williams front tbh. Are we really that keen to see the likes of Williams in a green jersey?
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby hugonaut » November 6th, 2019, 9:22 am

paddyor wrote:Neither Hart or Williams are HEC level SHs and barely P14 tbh. The Matheson signing showed the weakness/stupidity of the NIQ rules. Williams has never looked anything near the required level for the irish team but Munster kept him because they had to. Simialrly Munster signed Hart because he was IQ but aside from one appearance in MO's team of the week a few years ago has he ever looked like a potential international. You can point to Pieenaar being moved on for cooney being the big win but he could've moved south.

It's probably a good thing they signed Matheson and admitted defeat on the Williams front tbh. Are we really that keen to see the likes of Williams in a green jersey?


Paddy, have to disagree with you here on a couple of counts.

Nobody is forcing you to watch Duncan Williams play for Ireland. He's retired now and he was never selected for them, or on a central contract, or even in a training squad to the best of my knowledge! That's a complete red herring.

Williams is 33 and put in 150+ games for Munster, his home province. It was the guy's ambition and his career, and he put a lot into it. He wasn't at the top end of his profession in a relatively small market, but loads of people in their respective professions aren't in the top 5%; they're still entitled to make a living from it.

I never thought much of him as a pro scrum-half, but in fairness to him, he had a pretty long innings, at least one excellent European game [against Exeter last season] and Munster produced a great scrum-half [Murray] while he was in situ ... he didn't block anybody's progress. I don't see that the problem is. He wasn't that good? I don't care. He didn't play for us!
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby fourthirtythree » November 6th, 2019, 10:14 am

Williams drew the hate from the Munster faithful as they didn't think he was good enough. Why should we dis him here? A decent pro and reliable backup who played second fiddle to the best scrum half Ireland have had in my memory.

Alby on the other hand IS and actually HAS blocked Irish talent. Having him to play when your international is away is not good business for the iRFU and given the way their moving Leinster players South project imploded miserably at the WC they really should face a critical review.

de Allende will block Irish young players too. Though, to be fair, I don't think Scannell is international standard. But he certainly is good enough for when the internationals are away.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Oldschool » November 6th, 2019, 11:07 am

Matheson was signed as cover for Murray following his neck injury, iirc.
Logically when Murray was declared fit, Matheson's contract shouldn't have been extended.
However Matheson's contract was extended, why?
It's likely that there was a lot of uncertainty regarding Murray making a full recovery.
IMHO there still is and hence Matheson's contract extensions.
Murray's form since his injury and during the recent RWC has been less than reassuring.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby TrapperChamonix » November 6th, 2019, 11:36 am

paddyor wrote:Neither Hart or Williams are HEC level SHs and barely P14 tbh. The Matheson signing showed the weakness/stupidity of the NIQ rules. Williams has never looked anything near the required level for the irish team but Munster kept him because they had to. Simialrly Munster signed Hart because he was IQ but aside from one appearance in MO's team of the week a few years ago has he ever looked like a potential international. You can point to Pieenaar being moved on for cooney being the big win but he could've moved south.

It's probably a good thing they signed Matheson and admitted defeat on the Williams front tbh. Are we really that keen to see the likes of Williams in a green jersey?


The question is, why bring Hart back from France if he was barely P14 level. Truth is he was making his way in Top14 with Grenoble and the Stade (or was it Racing) so he was good enough. But like many before him his improvement curve turned negative when he went to Munster.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby ronk » November 6th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Oldschool wrote:Matheson was signed as cover for Murray following his neck injury, iirc.
Logically when Murray was declared fit, Matheson's contract shouldn't have been extended.
However Matheson's contract was extended, why?
It's likely that there was a lot of uncertainty regarding Murray making a full recovery.
IMHO there still is and hence Matheson's contract extensions.
Murray's form since his injury and during the recent RWC has been less than reassuring.


Logically from a squad development perspective he shouldnt have been extended.

From a will the team be stronger on the days he on the team sheet sense - it was a no brainer.

Which logic is in the IRFUs best interest? Clearly they should want to see development of players with limited exceptions.

For Nucifora, he can recruit IQ and projects to Munster instead of to Connacht development province or he can bet his career on them fixing their academy pipeline. If he goes against Munster public opinion hard then he is betting his career because they'll blame him if things go South.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby neill_m » November 6th, 2019, 2:47 pm

I see the Pro 14 have put a neutral official in charge of the Munster Ulster game on Saturday, former Munster player Frank Murphy. Not the 1st time he has got a home inter pro at Thomond Park...
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby johng » November 6th, 2019, 2:58 pm

neill_m wrote:Leinster 2 NIE - Tomane, 2020 Fardy, 2020 1 NIQ - Lowe IQ'd Oct 2020
Ulster no NIQ, 3 NIE - Faddes, 2021 Carter, 2021 Coetzee 2022
Connacht 2 NIE - Godwin, 2020 Porch, Dunno 3 NIQ - Butler 2022 Autumn IQ'd 2020, Faainga Dunno and Horwitz 2020 2023.
Munster 2 NIE - Botha, 2020 Mathewson, 2019 (allegedly) 2 NIQ - Cloete IQ'd Nov 2020, Knox summer/autumn 2020. Holloway is NIQ also, but only signed on a RWC cover contract for 2 months covering Oct and Nov. Mathewson is only signed till start of Dec 19 as RWC cover also.


Good post Neill. I stuck in the current contract duration as far as I know them
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Peg Leg » November 6th, 2019, 3:28 pm

TrapperChamonix wrote:
paddyor wrote:Neither Hart or Williams are HEC level SHs and barely P14 tbh. The Matheson signing showed the weakness/stupidity of the NIQ rules. Williams has never looked anything near the required level for the irish team but Munster kept him because they had to. Simialrly Munster signed Hart because he was IQ but aside from one appearance in MO's team of the week a few years ago has he ever looked like a potential international. You can point to Pieenaar being moved on for cooney being the big win but he could've moved south.

It's probably a good thing they signed Matheson and admitted defeat on the Williams front tbh. Are we really that keen to see the likes of Williams in a green jersey?


The question is, why bring Hart back from France if he was barely P14 level. Truth is he was making his way in Top14 with Grenoble and the Stade (or was it Racing) so he was good enough. But like many before him his improvement curve turned negative when he went to Munster.
Hart's star had fallen very far before Munster found him in the bargain bin
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby johng » November 6th, 2019, 5:45 pm

Cloete signed an extension as well to 2022.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby paddyor » November 6th, 2019, 7:03 pm

hugonaut wrote:
paddyor wrote:Neither Hart or Williams are HEC level SHs and barely P14 tbh. The Matheson signing showed the weakness/stupidity of the NIQ rules. Williams has never looked anything near the required level for the irish team but Munster kept him because they had to. Simialrly Munster signed Hart because he was IQ but aside from one appearance in MO's team of the week a few years ago has he ever looked like a potential international. You can point to Pieenaar being moved on for cooney being the big win but he could've moved south.

It's probably a good thing they signed Matheson and admitted defeat on the Williams front tbh. Are we really that keen to see the likes of Williams in a green jersey?


Paddy, have to disagree with you here on a couple of counts.

Nobody is forcing you to watch Duncan Williams play for Ireland. He's retired now and he was never selected for them, or on a central contract, or even in a training squad to the best of my knowledge! That's a complete red herring.

Williams is 33 and put in 150+ games for Munster, his home province. It was the guy's ambition and his career, and he put a lot into it. He wasn't at the top end of his profession in a relatively small market, but loads of people in their respective professions aren't in the top 5%; they're still entitled to make a living from it.

I never thought much of him as a pro scrum-half, but in fairness to him, he had a pretty long innings, at least one excellent European game [against Exeter last season] and Munster produced a great scrum-half [Murray] while he was in situ ... he didn't block anybody's progress. I don't see that the problem is. He wasn't that good? I don't care. He didn't play for us!

I don't think Williams was of much benefit to the national team whatever about his province. But we had rules to promote Irish layers and one of those players was Williams. Maybe a tad harsh to single him out but I think it's a good illustation of the dysfunction the NIQ rules incentivize. It's after the fact analysis but you could've signed Matheson 3 years ago and he wouldn't have been blocking any emerging talent. There was one SH whose career was blighted by injury and had to retire early. Irish rugby wouldn't have been any worse off if Matheson had been starting games in place of Williams 3 years ago.

To give another example Ulster signed Sean Doyle as an IQ flanker. He was nothing special had a few good games for Ulster then went back to Oz before Munster signed him as medical joker for 3 months because he was IQ and weren't allowed to use him.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby dropkick » November 6th, 2019, 9:05 pm

The benefit of the NIQ rules is that it forces provinces to develop their own players. Short term pain, long term gain. I think they've gotten the balance right over the years although it's probably a system that could still be improved.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby blockhead » November 7th, 2019, 10:42 am

dropkick wrote:The benefit of the NIQ rules is that it forces provinces to develop their own players. Short term pain, long term gain. I think they've gotten the balance right over the years although it's probably a system that could still be improved.


Ah would ya stop.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby joooooe » November 7th, 2019, 10:48 am

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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Oldschool » November 7th, 2019, 11:13 am

Joey, will miss the first two rounds of the HCC and is a doubt for rounds 3 and 4 also.
Solution sign a RWC medal winning centre on a short term contract.
That's a Munster style short term contract probably.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby tomthefan » November 7th, 2019, 11:27 am

We were sold a dud!
You have been banned for the following reason:
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Oldschoolsocks » November 7th, 2019, 2:35 pm

tomthefan wrote:We were sold a dud!

You keep on breaking them
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Oldschool » November 7th, 2019, 3:43 pm

tomthefan wrote:We were sold a dud!

You paid nothing.
You could perhaps have argued you got what you paid for.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby blockhead » November 7th, 2019, 4:36 pm

There's blowing smoke up someones arse....
Larkham “Somebody asked me that the other day and I think the talent, the skill level over here (Munster) is probably better than it is in Australia . . . .

And there's really blowing smoke up someones arse. :lol:

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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Oldschool » November 7th, 2019, 6:17 pm

blockhead wrote:There's blowing smoke up someones arse....
Larkham “Somebody asked me that the other day and I think the talent, the skill level over here (Munster) is probably better than it is in Australia . . . .

And there's really blowing smoke up someones arse. :lol:

The red army will love this.

He's probably right, "blowing smoke up someone's arse" is a real talent.
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