Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby The Doc » January 21st, 2020, 1:18 pm

wixfjord wrote:
The Doc wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Yep would agree with that.

The simplistic idea that a player should move just to play games is just that - simplistic.

Sure it's important to play games, but it's the whole environment that's more important.

Salanoa is a good example. I would wager he would play 3x the number of games he'd get at Leinster next season at Connacht. But at this stage of his development is it a good idea? Does he need games or does he need quality coaching in a better environment with better players around him?


Yeah - specifically with him transferring from another sport. I also like what Connacht have done - looking for unseen potential and picking players up from other provinces.

I just can't understand why Munster aren't scouting the Leinster Schools Cup and Club Leagues. They could work with UL, create funded programs - really make it an attractive (or viable option) to a place in the Leinster academy. Even if they just focussed on the kids who don't make the Leinster setup. How many make sub-academy each year - 8? 10? and often the choice is made positionally rather than just the best players. It leaves a massive pool of available talent.


That would be a very innovative and sharp move.

On the other hand, could you imagine the uproar it would cause on here and elsewhere!
On here? Not much

Elsewhere? Yeah I could imagine. But that's my point. They are avoiding taking action to resolve the core problem. Easier to blame "factors outside our control". Same with dealing with the interaction between clubs, schools and branch. Same as avoiding pitching into GAA areas.


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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby wixfjord » January 21st, 2020, 1:28 pm

The Doc wrote:On here? Not much

Elsewhere? Yeah I could imagine. But that's my point. They are avoiding taking action to resolve the core problem. Easier to blame "factors outside our control". Same with dealing with the interaction between clubs, schools and branch. Same as avoiding pitching into GAA areas.


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There would be absolute uproar on here if Munster started trying to poach Leinster Schools players!
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby OTT » January 21st, 2020, 1:34 pm

wixfjord wrote:
The Doc wrote:On here? Not much

Elsewhere? Yeah I could imagine. But that's my point. They are avoiding taking action to resolve the core problem. Easier to blame "factors outside our control". Same with dealing with the interaction between clubs, schools and branch. Same as avoiding pitching into GAA areas.


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There would be absolute uproar on here if Munster started trying to poach Leinster Schools players!


I think Doc means offering a route to a guy like Paul Boyle who has not been offered a place at Leinster like Connacht did as opposed to only concentrating on the talent Leinster are developing eg we need a 7 when will Scott Penny be ready for us.

Although you are still left with the problem that Munster don't like giving young players game time no matter where they come from.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby wixfjord » January 21st, 2020, 1:38 pm

OTT wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
The Doc wrote:On here? Not much

Elsewhere? Yeah I could imagine. But that's my point. They are avoiding taking action to resolve the core problem. Easier to blame "factors outside our control". Same with dealing with the interaction between clubs, schools and branch. Same as avoiding pitching into GAA areas.


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There would be absolute uproar on here if Munster started trying to poach Leinster Schools players!


I think Doc means offering a route to a guy like Paul Boyle who has not been offered a place at Leinster like Connacht did as opposed to only concentrating on the talent Leinster are developing eg we need a 7 when will Scott Penny be ready for us.


Yes but if Munster are going to start offering more academy contracts to Leinster schools players then they're not just going to offer them to guys who won't/haven't made the Leinster academy.

And that isn't going to go down well.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby The Doc » January 21st, 2020, 1:56 pm

wixfjord wrote:
OTT wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
There would be absolute uproar on here if Munster started trying to poach Leinster Schools players!


I think Doc means offering a route to a guy like Paul Boyle who has not been offered a place at Leinster like Connacht did as opposed to only concentrating on the talent Leinster are developing eg we need a 7 when will Scott Penny be ready for us.


Yes but if Munster are going to start offering more academy contracts to Leinster schools players then they're not just going to offer them to guys who won't/haven't made the Leinster academy.

And that isn't going to go down well.


I wasn't talking about poaching - that's effectively what they are trying to do now. I meant offering roles to guys who Leinster turn down. There wouldn't be uproar here at all.

And even if they did try to jump in ahead of Leinster, the kid has a choice - and I'd be confident enough that most times the Leinster academy would be more attractive to most. But even if not, at least it's a fair choice and the kid making his own decision. And it keeps us on our toes (If I recall, that's effectively what happened with Luke Fitz - he went straight to a full contract because of interest from Munster. Open to correction)

Edit : and at least if we lose a school kid to Munster Academy, we can get on with things and select someone else - as it is currently, we spend years developing soemone and THEN they want them to move
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby tomthefan » January 21st, 2020, 2:01 pm

Laighin Break wrote:Siblings being good at the same sports (or sport in general) is more down to genetics/natural talent than privilege. We see it all the time in the GAA too.


Genetics undoubtedly had a part to play.
But the smaller the pond you pick from the more likely the fish are to be related. The ostensible pond Leinster rugby is picking from is quite large yet there are still quite a lot of siblings in the squad. The real pond, as we know, is much smaller. It's possibly the equivalent of all the secondary schools in a small to medium sized county such as Kilkenny or Kerry. So do you see about as many siblings on their county GAA teams as you do in Leinster rugby?
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby hugonaut » January 21st, 2020, 2:15 pm

OTT wrote:Although you are still left with the problem that Munster don't like giving young players game time no matter where they come from.


Plenty of good young players in Munster. The Wycherly brothers, Gavin Coombes, Craig Casey, Calvin Nash, Jack O'Sullivan, Josh Hodnett and Sean French were all very good Irish U20s over the last three years. Some are taking a little bit longer than others to get into the swing of things – for example, Josh Wycherly is very light for a professional loosehead at 105kg, and Hodnett is too small to play the same type of ball-carrying role that he did at for the U20s. Wycherly will have to get bigger and stronger and Hodnett will have to concentrate more on his link play and his work over the ball at the breakdown ... but both of them have pro potential, you're only talking about adjustments.

The biggest factor hurting their development is JvG's conservative selection. He needs to be more progressive with regards to selecting young players. This sh*t isn't rocket science, it just takes a strong nerve.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Peg Leg » January 21st, 2020, 2:43 pm

hugonaut wrote:
OTT wrote:Although you are still left with the problem that Munster don't like giving young players game time no matter where they come from.


Plenty of good young players in Munster. The Wycherly brothers, Gavin Coombes, Craig Casey, Calvin Nash, Jack O'Sullivan, Josh Hodnett and Sean French were all very good Irish U20s over the last three years. Some are taking a little bit longer than others to get into the swing of things – for example, Josh Wycherly is very light for a professional loosehead at 105kg, and Hodnett is too small to play the same type of ball-carrying role that he did at for the U20s. Wycherly will have to get bigger and stronger and Hodnett will have to concentrate more on his link play and his work over the ball at the breakdown ... but both of them have pro potential, you're only talking about adjustments.

The biggest factor hurting their development is JvG's conservative selection. He needs to be more progressive with regards to selecting young players. This sh*t isn't rocket science, it just takes a strong nerve.

It makes you wonder what messaging he is receiving from the board.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby blockhead » January 21st, 2020, 2:43 pm

hugonaut wrote:
OTT wrote:Although you are still left with the problem that Munster don't like giving young players game time no matter where they come from.


Plenty of good young players in Munster. The Wycherly brothers, Gavin Coombes, Craig Casey, Calvin Nash, Jack O'Sullivan, Josh Hodnett and Sean French were all very good Irish U20s over the last three years. Some are taking a little bit longer than others to get into the swing of things – for example, Josh Wycherly is very light for a professional loosehead at 105kg, and Hodnett is too small to play the same type of ball-carrying role that he did at for the U20s. Wycherly will have to get bigger and stronger and Hodnett will have to concentrate more on his link play and his work over the ball at the breakdown ... but both of them have pro potential, you're only talking about adjustments.

The biggest factor hurting their development is JvG's conservative selection. He needs to be more progressive with regards to selecting young players. This sh*t isn't rocket science, it just takes a strong nerve.


But they must win the next game. Must make the Heino QFs and a home semi in the Pro14.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Laighin Break » January 22nd, 2020, 9:11 am

tomthefan wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:Siblings being good at the same sports (or sport in general) is more down to genetics/natural talent than privilege. We see it all the time in the GAA too.


Genetics undoubtedly had a part to play.
But the smaller the pond you pick from the more likely the fish are to be related. The ostensible pond Leinster rugby is picking from is quite large yet there are still quite a lot of siblings in the squad. The real pond, as we know, is much smaller. It's possibly the equivalent of all the secondary schools in a small to medium sized county such as Kilkenny or Kerry. So do you see about as many siblings on their county GAA teams as you do in Leinster rugby?


Off the top of my head, over the last few years in Dublin GAA: 3 Brogans (all football), 3 O'Carrolls (1 football, 1 hurling, 1 football/hurling), 3 O'Callaghans (2 football, 1 hurling), 2 Smalls (both football), 2 Schuttes (1 hurling, 1 football/hurling), 2 O'Garas (both football), 2 Connollys (1 football, 1 hurling), 2 Treacys (both hurling), 2 McBrides (both hurling)
Probably more that I'm not thinking of.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby hugonaut » January 22nd, 2020, 9:24 am

Laighin Break wrote:
tomthefan wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:Siblings being good at the same sports (or sport in general) is more down to genetics/natural talent than privilege. We see it all the time in the GAA too.


Genetics undoubtedly had a part to play.
But the smaller the pond you pick from the more likely the fish are to be related. The ostensible pond Leinster rugby is picking from is quite large yet there are still quite a lot of siblings in the squad. The real pond, as we know, is much smaller. It's possibly the equivalent of all the secondary schools in a small to medium sized county such as Kilkenny or Kerry. So do you see about as many siblings on their county GAA teams as you do in Leinster rugby?


Off the top of my head, over the last few years in Dublin GAA: 3 Brogans (all football), 3 O'Carrolls (1 football, 1 hurling, 1 football/hurling), 3 O'Callaghans (2 football, 1 hurling), 2 Smalls (both football), 2 Schuttes (1 hurling, 1 football/hurling), 2 O'Garas (both football), 2 Connollys (1 football, 1 hurling), 2 Treacys (both hurling), 2 McBrides (both hurling)
Probably more that I'm not thinking of.


Ryan and Colm Basquel, Stuart and Eric Lowndes might be another two.

Stuart Lowndes turned out for Meath, Eric for Dublin. Think both Basquels have played for Dublin ... if Ryan hasn't yet, he will this year.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby John23 » January 22nd, 2020, 9:48 am

hugonaut wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
tomthefan wrote:[quote="Laighin Break"]
Siblings being good at the same sports (or sport in general) is more down to genetics/natural talent than privilege. We see it all the time in the GAA too.


Genetics undoubtedly had a part to play.
But the smaller the pond you pick from the more likely the fish are to be related. The ostensible pond Leinster rugby is picking from is quite large yet there are still quite a lot of siblings in the squad. The real pond, as we know, is much smaller. It's possibly the equivalent of all the secondary schools in a small to medium sized county such as Kilkenny or Kerry. So do you see about as many siblings on their county GAA teams as you do in Leinster rugby?


Off the top of my head, over the last few years in Dublin GAA: 3 Brogans (all football), 3 O'Carrolls (1 football, 1 hurling, 1 football/hurling), 3 O'Callaghans (2 football, 1 hurling), 2 Smalls (both football), 2 Schuttes (1 hurling, 1 football/hurling), 2 O'Garas (both football), 2 Connollys (1 football, 1 hurling), 2 Treacys (both hurling), 2 McBrides (both hurling)
Probably more that I'm not thinking of.


Ryan and Colm Basquel, Stuart and Eric Lowndes might be another two.

Stuart Lowndes turned out for Meath, Eric for Dublin. Think both Basquels have played for Dublin ... if Ryan hasn't yet, he will this year.[/quote]Hugh O'Sullivan's two brother Cillian and Mark play senior football and hurling respectively for Meath.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby blockhead » January 22nd, 2020, 11:18 am

Munsterfans is slowly coming to the conclusion that this seasons travails are because of BlueJoe.
Ye see, the low skill based game of the Ireland team was so "agricultural" that when the liginds came back from Japan they were unable to adapt quickly enough to Larkhams new vision.
Hence the decline from a very bright and promising start to the 2019-20 season.
Case closed.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby FLIP » January 22nd, 2020, 11:31 am

blockhead wrote:Munsterfans is slowly coming to the conclusion that this seasons travails are because of BlueJoe.
Ye see, the low skill based game of the Ireland team was so "agricultural" that when the liginds came back from Japan they were unable to adapt quickly enough to Larkhams new vision.
Hence the decline from a very bright and promising start to the 2019-20 season.
Case closed.


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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby ronk » January 22nd, 2020, 1:21 pm

blockhead wrote:Munsterfans is slowly coming to the conclusion that this seasons travails are because of BlueJoe.
Ye see, the low skill based game of the Ireland team was so "agricultural" that when the liginds came back from Japan they were unable to adapt quickly enough to Larkhams new vision.
Hence the decline from a very bright and promising start to the 2019-20 season.
Case closed.


They had a promising start this season?
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Laighin Break » January 22nd, 2020, 3:41 pm

hugonaut wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:Off the top of my head, over the last few years in Dublin GAA: 3 Brogans (all football), 3 O'Carrolls (1 football, 1 hurling, 1 football/hurling), 3 O'Callaghans (2 football, 1 hurling), 2 Smalls (both football), 2 Schuttes (1 hurling, 1 football/hurling), 2 O'Garas (both football), 2 Connollys (1 football, 1 hurling), 2 Treacys (both hurling), 2 McBrides (both hurling)
Probably more that I'm not thinking of.


Ryan and Colm Basquel, Stuart and Eric Lowndes might be another two.

Stuart Lowndes turned out for Meath, Eric for Dublin. Think both Basquels have played for Dublin ... if Ryan hasn't yet, he will this year.


I thought of the Basquels alright but wasn't sure if Ryan's played with the Senior team. Assume he will too (in the league at least) - seems the two Basquels were in great form for Boden last year.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Twist » January 22nd, 2020, 5:34 pm

hugonaut wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
tomthefan wrote:
Genetics undoubtedly had a part to play.
But the smaller the pond you pick from the more likely the fish are to be related. The ostensible pond Leinster rugby is picking from is quite large yet there are still quite a lot of siblings in the squad. The real pond, as we know, is much smaller. It's possibly the equivalent of all the secondary schools in a small to medium sized county such as Kilkenny or Kerry. So do you see about as many siblings on their county GAA teams as you do in Leinster rugby?


Off the top of my head, over the last few years in Dublin GAA: 3 Brogans (all football), 3 O'Carrolls (1 football, 1 hurling, 1 football/hurling), 3 O'Callaghans (2 football, 1 hurling), 2 Smalls (both football), 2 Schuttes (1 hurling, 1 football/hurling), 2 O'Garas (both football), 2 Connollys (1 football, 1 hurling), 2 Treacys (both hurling), 2 McBrides (both hurling)
Probably more that I'm not thinking of.


Ryan and Colm Basquel, Stuart and Eric Lowndes might be another two.

Stuart Lowndes turned out for Meath, Eric for Dublin. Think both Basquels have played for Dublin ... if Ryan hasn't yet, he will this year.



Here’s a niche one for yis

First brother and sister to win All Stars in the same year?




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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby blockhead » January 24th, 2020, 8:30 pm

Jacques Nienaber gets the head coach role for the Saffers.
Rassie won the World Cup.
Munster really fupped up when they let those lads go. :lol:
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Dave Cahill » January 24th, 2020, 9:43 pm

Munster didn't let them go, they wanted to keep both. However Erasmus had a release clause in his contract that was insisted upon by the IRFU
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby blockhead » January 24th, 2020, 9:55 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:Munster didn't let them go, they wanted to keep both. However Erasmus had a release clause in his contract that was insisted upon by the IRFU


Ah sure I know that. Hence the laughing Smilie.
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