Rumours - premiership

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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby blockhead » November 5th, 2019, 12:40 pm

OTT wrote:It is back to the English model of promotion/relegation not working for professional rugby.

They have the salary cap to stop the weaker clubs over extending themselves and going to the wall and a club like Saracens gets screwed for building a brilliant academy and team a team most clubs would love to have (well other then our boys in Blue!). They have long lost their old tag of mercenaries for me. It does not sit right with me that they are getting kept down because other teams don't have money, the salary cap is way, way to restrictive imo. England would not be the team they are without that Saracens glue/heart/will either.

European wise the competition is better with strong teams in it, we would have our 5th star no doubt if we were able to play against a handicapped Saracens last May but when we next get a chance to play them I don't want any excuses being thrown at us let us rise above the best, sport is not meant to be everyone being equal it is about people/teams being the best they can be and overcoming their limitations and adversity whatever they may be.

Making Saracens bad to give other teams a chance is not sport for me. I get that they broke the rules I just think the rules are absolute bollix.

I am sure most people won't agree with my sentiment, let the stones hail down on me :lol:


They agreed to the rules then broke them. They get the agreed to sanctions.







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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby fourthirtythree » November 5th, 2019, 12:44 pm

That's a bit like Boris Johnson disagreeing with the Supreme Court ruling: who gives a f%~k? It's the law.

See also our government and the DPC, your opinion is no more interesting than an uneducated teenager's: comply with the f%~king law.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby blockhead » November 5th, 2019, 12:45 pm

Nigel responds
For over 25 years, I have put my heart and soul into the game I love. Together we have created something incredibly special with the Saracens Family, both on and off the field.
This is absolutely devastating for everyone associated with this amazing group of players, staff, partners and fans. It has been acknowledged by the Panel that we never deliberately sought to mislead anyone or breach the cap and that’s why it feels like the rug is being completely pulled out from under our feet. We will appeal all the findings.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby fourthirtythree » November 5th, 2019, 12:48 pm

Never deliberately my hole.

You gotta love billionaires, they're never wrong, even when they have their hand in someone else's pocket it's their fault.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby cormac » November 5th, 2019, 12:54 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:The fine is great but the points deduction doesn't seem enough to me.

Newcastle finished last with 31 points last season and Leicester were second last with 41. Saracens finished second with 78. So there's a decent chance they avoid relegation and if they manage that then they're fine again, although obviously you'd assume that they'll lose players. They payments were over three seasons so I'd have thought that three seasons worth of punishments would make more sense, and they should really be banned from Europe given that they wrongly took the place of another club for three seasons in a row.


The points deduction is the maximum allowable under the rules.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 5th, 2019, 12:55 pm

cormac wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:The fine is great but the points deduction doesn't seem enough to me.

Newcastle finished last with 31 points last season and Leicester were second last with 41. Saracens finished second with 78. So there's a decent chance they avoid relegation and if they manage that then they're fine again, although obviously you'd assume that they'll lose players. They payments were over three seasons so I'd have thought that three seasons worth of punishments would make more sense, and they should really be banned from Europe given that they wrongly took the place of another club for three seasons in a row.


The points deduction is the maximum allowable under the rules.


I'm aware of that.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 5th, 2019, 12:56 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:Never deliberately my hole.

You gotta love billionaires, they're never wrong, even when they have their hand in someone else's pocket it's their fault.


In his defence, haven't they been pretty open about what they were doing?
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 5th, 2019, 1:02 pm

I can see where OTT is coming from. It's a bit like Leinster not being allowed to sign players (Giteau?) despite having a need and being able to afford them.

I disagree with the sentiment though, they weren't exactly being hamstrung by the rules, and the financial stability of the entire league is far more important. The wages of the staff of a lot of the Prem clubs are piss poor as well, and obviously that's partly because of the need to spend every penny on the pitch. That will always be a tricky balance but a small redressing of the it could make a big difference to a lot of people.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby Oldschool » November 5th, 2019, 1:29 pm

If one team totally dominates on an ongoing basis then that's ultimately bad for the league they're are involved in.
Spectator numbers, sponsorship would drop off for all the other teams involved and ultimately the tv money too.
That's some of the problem.
Not sure what the answer.
The idea of a salary cap, at least, is an attempt at addressing the issue.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby Twist » November 5th, 2019, 1:43 pm

OTT wrote: I get that they broke the rules I just think the rules are absolute bollix.


Ok, then let them use steroids while we're at it. I'm sure they can afford them, and it'd make them better players.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby Logorrhea » November 5th, 2019, 2:08 pm

OTT wrote:I get that they broke the rules I just think the rules are absolute bollix.


Any quality competition is based on fairplay and balance. Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, they were the rules that premiership rugby agreed too and the rules that the other teams abided by. Saracens cheated the other premiership teams in order to win those titles and should be penalised as a result.

I've no problem with their European victories.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby CiaranIrl » November 5th, 2019, 2:49 pm

OTT wrote:It is back to the English model of promotion/relegation not working for professional rugby.

They have the salary cap to stop the weaker clubs over extending themselves and going to the wall and a club like Saracens gets screwed for building a brilliant academy and team a team most clubs would love to have (well other then our boys in Blue!). They have long lost their old tag of mercenaries for me. It does not sit right with me that they are getting kept down because other teams don't have money, the salary cap is way, way to restrictive imo. England would not be the team they are without that Saracens glue/heart/will either.

European wise the competition is better with strong teams in it, we would have our 5th star no doubt if we were able to play against a handicapped Saracens last May but when we next get a chance to play them I don't want any excuses being thrown at us let us rise above the best, sport is not meant to be everyone being equal it is about people/teams being the best they can be and overcoming their limitations and adversity whatever they may be.

Making Saracens bad to give other teams a chance is not sport for me. I get that they broke the rules I just think the rules are absolute bollix.

I am sure most people won't agree with my sentiment, let the stones hail down on me :lol:


I'd agree with you if we were talking about teams being funded by attendance, sponsorship and TV audiences. If one team has more cash in that environment, then fair enough. Where this falls apart is where Billionaires turn clubs into playthings. That utterly distorts the landscape and needs to be prevented in my opinion.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby Flash Gordon » November 5th, 2019, 4:53 pm

Logorrhea wrote:
OTT wrote:I get that they broke the rules I just think the rules are absolute bollix.


Any quality competition is based on fairplay and balance. Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, they were the rules that premiership rugby agreed too and the rules that the other teams abided by. Saracens cheated the other premiership teams in order to win those titles and should be penalised as a result.

I've no problem with their European victories.


That's true but it even goes beyond fair play. Rugby has to be sustainable economically. Only one or 2 clubs don't lose money generally. There are clubs whose losses have exceeded their turnover! With huge debt academies go as investment goes to week to week income generation and survival. Without sustainable economics clubs face financial ruin (like Richmond and London Scottish).
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » November 5th, 2019, 5:53 pm

Harlequinns were fined 50p for every £1 overspent a few years ago....the £5.5m fine suggests that Saracens were taking the p!ss on an industrial scale.
Rugbypass are speculating on which players are out to comply with the cap for this season. https://www.rugbypass.com/news/who-are-the-likely-salary-cap-casualties-if-saracens-are-forced-to-trim-the-fat
19 games left...unlikely to make europe next season. mid table finish maybe. even if they cull a few players..they still have a good team.

Surprised that European rugby haven't said anything....English club that missed out on the HC place this season will be well miffed. As for taking the previous trophys away from them...that is what happens in other sports..so why not rugby?
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby Icarus » November 5th, 2019, 7:37 pm

It's hard not to feel a tincture of schadenfreude.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby blockhead » November 5th, 2019, 9:36 pm

Saw this in the comments section on The42.
best reports are that Leinsters is around £8 million so would be about in line with Prem cap of £7 mill plus two marquee players, between £6-7 mill for the other 3 provinces. Glasgow about £6.5 and Edinburgh £6, Dragons £4.8m, Cardiff Blues £5.9m, Ospreys £6.4m, Scarlets £7.7m. The SA teams have introduced a cap of £3.1m but across 8 Unions there will be around 80 Players of National Interest (PONIs) who will be subsidised by the SARU and I believe don’t count or only partially count toward the cap and limited to a squad of 43. Before that Cheetahs had £2.1m for 92 players and Southern Kings 0.7m for 68 players which explains why they have been the whipping boys. All pales in comparison to Frances cap of £10m


Anyone know if this is accurate?
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 6th, 2019, 11:39 am

blockhead wrote:Saw this in the comments section on The42.
best reports are that Leinsters is around £8 million so would be about in line with Prem cap of £7 mill plus two marquee players, between £6-7 mill for the other 3 provinces. Glasgow about £6.5 and Edinburgh £6, Dragons £4.8m, Cardiff Blues £5.9m, Ospreys £6.4m, Scarlets £7.7m. The SA teams have introduced a cap of £3.1m but across 8 Unions there will be around 80 Players of National Interest (PONIs) who will be subsidised by the SARU and I believe don’t count or only partially count toward the cap and limited to a squad of 43. Before that Cheetahs had £2.1m for 92 players and Southern Kings 0.7m for 68 players which explains why they have been the whipping boys. All pales in comparison to Frances cap of £10m


Anyone know if this is accurate?


Its used to very difficult to get an accurate handle on Leinster figures, because of Central Contract values which are not released. I understand that Club and Area delegates are given a full picture of the Branch finances but Players & Professional staff are combined so it is (rightly) impossible to isolate any ndividuals.

Salaries have increased, on average, every year since 2008, so the figure for the Senior Squad and Academy players (somewhere about 55 in total) could be close to €9m. (Just educated guesswork). A Club Rep mentioned during last week's game that Total expenditure this Season was budgeted at €17m plus, to cover Pro Game, Women, Clubs, Schools, Youths, Mini & Refs plus a staff complement which must exceed 100, if you include Club Dev Officers and all other specialist posts across the Province.

Pretty good value IMO, giving that this includes our own "Raw Material" production unit in the Leinster Academy and they are investing capital - and charitable bequests - in infrastructure like the Centres of Excellence around the Province.
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby Dexter » November 6th, 2019, 2:12 pm

Just read that while this salary cap overspending was going on, Saracens sought bank funding to construct the West Stand, but were unable to raise sufficient investment at an appropriate price. Saracens approached Barnet Council as an alternative funder, who lent them £22.3m. Barnet Council had its funding cut in that period by £21m.
They are getting it both barrels from the other clubs in the league too, it's really kicked off!
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby johng » November 6th, 2019, 2:21 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
blockhead wrote:Sbest reports are that Leinsters is around £8 million
Anyone know if this is accurate?


Its used to very difficult to get an accurate handle on Leinster figures, because of Central Contract values which are not released. I understand that Club and Area delegates are given a full picture of the Branch finances but Players & Professional staff are combined so it is (rightly) impossible to isolate any ndividuals.

Salaries have increased, on average, every year since 2008, so the figure for the Senior Squad and Academy players (somewhere about 55 in total) could be close to €9m. (Just educated guesswork). A Club Rep mentioned during last week's game that Total expenditure this Season was budgeted at €17m plus, to cover Pro Game, Women, Clubs, Schools, Youths, Mini & Refs plus a staff complement which must exceed 100, if you include Club Dev Officers and all other specialist posts across the Province.

Pretty good value IMO, giving that this includes our own "Raw Material" production unit in the Leinster Academy and they are investing capital - and charitable bequests - in infrastructure like the Centres of Excellence around the Province.

At current rates £8 million is about €9.2 million. So the answer seems to be yes..... Probably
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Re: Rumours - premiership

Postby The Doc » November 6th, 2019, 3:26 pm

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:Harlequinns were fined 50p for every £1 overspent a few years ago....the £5.5m fine suggests that Saracens were taking the p!ss on an industrial scale.
Rugbypass are speculating on which players are out to comply with the cap for this season. https://www.rugbypass.com/news/who-are-the-likely-salary-cap-casualties-if-saracens-are-forced-to-trim-the-fat
19 games left...unlikely to make europe next season. mid table finish maybe. even if they cull a few players..they still have a good team.

Surprised that European rugby haven't said anything....English club that missed out on the HC place this season will be well miffed. As for taking the previous trophys away from them...that is what happens in other sports..so why not rugby?


It's a sliding scale. If you just slightly go over the cap, it's 50% penalty. For significant amounts it is 3 times the "overage". The estimate is that Sarries exceeded the cap by £600k per year for the three years.
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