Ex-Prime Minister Baroness Thatcher dies

[Morf]

Godwin's Law strikes again.

[fourthirtythree]

If you lurk around the internet long enough you are sure to encounter Godwin himself pointing out that he did not mean to stifle political debate and that sometimes a comparison to Nazis is appropriate in context.

I don't think it's massively enlightening WRT Thatcher, but if you limit the argument it's certainly not insane.

For example they were both big state far right wing militaristic authoritarians supported by industry and a corporate press. They both came into power on the back of a backlash against unions and raising the spectre of union power as destroying their countries after debilitating recessions and the perception that their country had fallen far and their empires were largely lost. This nationalistic rhetoric justified much of the racism for example.

The notion that there is Hitler (or Stalin or Mao) and then there is the rest of human culture and politics and that they are something incomparable and not actually part of the continuum is quite far off kilter. Who was the bigger ogre, Mao or Queen Victoria? Who presided over more needless death, repression, murder?

[sid]

I don't know very much about Britain during Thatcher's years, so I don't really have any sort of well-formed opinion. She has to be the most hated politician I can think of though, and I'm curious as to why that is - plenty of leaders have implemented harsh economic policies without becoming the target of such vitriol. It's interesting that Reagan, for example, is often lauded for his "vision" in implementing conservative economic policies, but Thatcher is widely despised for it. I assume Thatcher's must have been much harsher.

And to reiterate, I'm not trying to defend her or her policies. It's just that most criticism of her I've ever read features a lot of hatred towards her but very little explanation as to why specific policies instilled such anger.

[blockhead]

You not sure what I mean? Right... nothing that she did by way of her democratic mandate equates with any of the evils of some of the most 'horrendous people in history'- who if some were ever elected, soon dropped the inconvenience of getting elected. I assume you are talking of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. Thatcher made plenty of political decisions that might be thought wrong or unfair- but they were backed by a democratic mandate and none of them involved killing people in camps! That's the type of atrocity that should be reserved for grave dancing. It's a sense of proportion and respect- yes respect! That's all.

No democracy in the world has the right to go another country and murder the citizens of that country. The "mandate" was quoted when after Bush'n'Blair got back into office after they attacked Iraq and killed 100,000 of its citizens.
DC is right, most wars are instigated by so called democracies. Hitler himself was an elected politician, you could say he had a "mandate" to do what he did if you follow that reasoning.

I've no problem following you off topic- but you're just conflating some many things there it would get incoherent. Iraq... what are you on about? We are taking Thatcher! Most wars started by democracies- what's your evidence for that broad brush statement?

The point on Hitler's election was addressed in my last post- he soon dropped that. To try to equate Blair, Bush and Thatcher to Hitler is really just silly. All three, like other democratic leaders were elected by their citizens and left power according to their democratic systems too. None of the murdering dictators did. and electoral manadtes aside, to try and say their actions are anyway in the ball park of the 'horrenous people' is to dimish your credability. You may not agree with Iraq- but- with respect that's your view.

For the record, I never equated Hitler with anyone else. I wasn't the one to even bring Hitler into the thread. That would be you, Artaneboy. I was merely trying to point out that "democratic mandates" stop at the border. The distinction between democratically elected murderers and dictatorial murderers becomes very blurred and irrelevant for their victims.
Anyway, back to Thatcher. My view of her policies and ideology softened when I started paying income tax. Looking back now at the strike ridden, union infested '70s England, maybe she was exactly what they needed but 10years too late. The UK car industry is a classic example, I don't think there is a marque left that isn't owned by the Germans,Yanks or Japanese.

[artaneboy]

No democracy in the world has the right to go another country and murder the citizens of that country. The "mandate" was quoted when after Bush'n'Blair got back into office after they attacked Iraq and killed 100,000 of its citizens.
DC is right, most wars are instigated by so called democracies. Hitler himself was an elected politician, you could say he had a "mandate" to do what he did if you follow that reasoning.

I'm not sure if we are arguing on anything at all now- except who brought up what first. Whoever said that democratic mandates didn't finish at a country's border? The point is- most of us agree that war is sometimes 'moral'- in the absence of a coherent and accepted set of international laws on the subject, it can only be defined as moral in relative terms. The inter-web does not yet count as a Court of International Justice. So we inevitably have a 'you say: I say' argument. Fine- but the level of vitriol dosen't make your case any stronger in such cases.

So to return to the initial point- I find the tendency at their death to denigrate the right to basic human respect of people we may strongly disagree with, distasteful and lacking class. That may be an old fashioned view- but there you are. Elvis Costello is a great song writer and I've been a fan from his earliest days- but that is not a classy song. It does not show a suitably respectful attitude to another human at that key point at the end of their life and if we are to remain a civilised society (another old fashioned concept), we need to accord respect at that stage for our political and cultural enemies. Where do you draw the line on respect? Not too hard to define really- everyone is entitled to the dignity of a a death and mourning period by those who care or admire you as a person. This doesn't mean we have to be hypocritical, your actions are always subject to condemnation and critique- but not in a 'Tramp the Dirt Down' fashion. And once again, I reiterate, I am not a natural supporter of Thatcher. I find her a deeply flawed politician, with a very mixed legacy.

[fourthirtythree]

Shipbuilding was a far more powerful critique of her.

The notion that the death of a public figure immediately stops any discussion of their divisive legacy whilst simultaneously allowing their supporters free run at a reconfiguration emphasising their political goals isn't worthy of serious consideration. We're you to criticise her as, say a mother, that would be intrusive on private grief. She appears to have been a loving mother etc. To not allow harsh criticism of her actions is to disrespect the voices of the dead and others who suffered from her actions or those of her friends e.g. Pinochet, apartheid SA, and even the Khmer Rouge (DPRK).

Show some respect.

[artaneboy]

Shipbuilding was a far more powerful critique of her.

The notion that the death of a public figure immediately stops any discussion of their divisive legacy whilst simultaneously allowing their supporters free run at a reconfiguration emphasising their political goals isn't worthy of serious consideration. We're you to criticise her as, say a mother, that would be intrusive on private grief. She appears to have been a loving mother etc. To not allow harsh criticism of her actions is to disrespect the voices of the dead and others who suffered from her actions or those of her friends e.g. Pinochet, apartheid SA, and even the Khmer Rouge (DPRK).

Show some respect.

Nothing there that goes against what I've said. Criticise her actions away! Lots of people- including me are currently at that. It's a time for reviewing a person's life and work in the round.

It's the song and the "grave dancing" inherent in it and the eejits who celebrate a person's death that I object too. That's what I call respect.

You're right 'Shilbuilding' is a better song and Robert Wyatt's version much more effective than Costello's. The virtue of subtleties. Has anyone covered Tramp the Dirt Down?

[Dave Cahill]

It's the song and the "grave dancing" inherent in it and the eejits who celebrate a person's death that I object too. That's what I call respect.

Your premise is predicated upon the belief that people are intrinsically worthy of some respect and that nothing they do in their lifetimes, no matter how much blood is on their hands can take that respect below that basic intrinsic level. Unfortunately Mrs T herself didn't agree. The only value one had in Thatchers worldview was what was in their pocketbook.

Tramp the dirt down isn't meant to be respectful or subtle, its a howl of rage at what this woman has done. Shipbuilding was written in gentler times, when her only crimes were causing the death of hundreds for profit and electoral gain. Things got a lot worse in the intervening five years

[artaneboy]

It's the song and the "grave dancing" inherent in it and the eejits who celebrate a person's death that I object too. That's what I call respect.

Your premise is predicated upon the belief that people are intrinsically worthy of some respect and that nothing they do in their lifetimes, no matter how much blood is on their hands can take that respect below that basic intrinsic level. Unfortunately Mrs T herself didn't agree. The only value one had in Thatchers worldview was what was in their pocketbook.

Tramp the dirt down isn't meant to be respectful or subtle, its a howl of rage at what this woman has done. Shipbuilding was written in gentler times, when her only crimes were causing the death of hundreds for profit and electoral gain. Things got a lot worse in the intervening five years

My premise Dave is based that all people are intrinsically worthy of respect! And we should observe it particularly at the end of their lives. What Mrs T believed- or what is your interpretation of it, is not my concern here. Please don't try and drag me into an argument on her policies. I'm supposed to do some work today. But I will say this, it's not an original thought maybe- but worth repeating-Thatcher was lucky in her choice of enemies; Galtieri, Scargill and the Trotskyite gobshites who killed the Labour movement in the 70s and 80s. Part of the problem in the latter cases was arguing from a false premise, that if your enemy is wrong, you (no matter how mad your ideas) must be right!

I give no credit to Costello for his 'howls of rage'. Most of his worst songs were written when he was on his high horse. Your irony aside-Shipbuilding was written in 1982 during the Falklands War. It was right in the middle of a turbelent period- not the calm before the storm. Wyatt took a strong song and made it a great one.

[Darce]

I have to question the mentality of some people who take genuine delight in someones passing...

[artaneboy]

It's the song and the "grave dancing" inherent in it and the eejits who celebrate a person's death that I object too. That's what I call respect.

Your premise is predicated upon the belief that people are intrinsically worthy of some respect and that nothing they do in their lifetimes, no matter how much blood is on their hands can take that respect below that basic intrinsic level. Unfortunately Mrs T herself didn't agree. The only value one had in Thatchers worldview was what was in their pocketbook.

Tramp the dirt down isn't meant to be respectful or subtle, its a howl of rage at what this woman has done. Shipbuilding was written in gentler times, when her only crimes were causing the death of hundreds for profit and electoral gain. Things got a lot worse in the intervening five years

My premise Dave is based that all people are intrinsically worthy of respect! And we should observe it particularly at the end of their lives. What Mrs T believed- or what is your interpretation of it, is not my concern here. Please don't try and drag me into an argument on her policies. I'm supposed to do some work today. But I will say this, it's not an original thought maybe- but worth repeating-Thatcher was lucky in her choice of enemies; Galtieri, Scargill, the IRA and the Trotskyite gobshites who killed the Labour movement in the 70s and 80s. Part of the problem in the latter cases was arguing from a false premise, that if your enemy is wrong, you (no matter how mad your ideas) must be right!

I give no credit to Costello for his 'howls of rage'. Most of his worst songs were written when he was on his high horse. Your irony aside-Shipbuilding was written in 1982 during the Falklands War. It was right in the middle of a turbelent period- not the calm before the storm. Wyatt took a strong song and made it a great one.

Forgot to mention 'our own home grown' patriots!

[Dave Cahill]

Don't forget Nelson Mandela, he was a terrorist too, just like the IRA - according to Maggie.

[Broken Wing]

I have to question the mentality of some people who take genuine delight in someones passing...

How about these people?

[honeyec]

I don't agree at all with the outright glee some people are expressing at her death, but I saw a classic the other day:

"Congratulations to whoever found all the Horcruxes."

[John23]

On a lighter note, Paul Merton once said "When I hear of "Lady Thatcher" I can't but think these people are referring to a new "personal hygiene device""

[artaneboy]

Don't forget Nelson Mandela, he was a terrorist too, just like the IRA - according to Maggie.

Is maggie your guru then, Dave?

[artaneboy]

I have to question the mentality of some people who take genuine delight in someones passing...

How about these people?

Equally distasteful. But don't try and sell the equivalence of Bin Laden to Thatcher!

[Broken Wing]

But don't try and sell the equivalence of Bin Laden to Thatcher!

I wasn't. In fact the opposite was the point as I think that celebrations of Bin Laden's death were completely understandable.

[Sauvignon Blank]

Thatcher was different things to different people.

As was correctly pointed out earlier, respect is very much earned in this life.
She was the architect of some horrible deeds and a bedfellow of some repugnant b$&%@#ds.

To Tories,right wingers and Harry Enfield Loadsamoney types she was a hero.

To myself(and millions of others), I wholly despised the rancid aul bitch. I took great pleasure in her demise and truly hope she suffered in her final days.

Good riddance to a stain on humanity.

[West Brit]

Thatcher was different things to different people.

As was correctly pointed out earlier, respect is very much earned in this life.
She was the architect of some horrible deeds and a bedfellow of some repugnant b$&%@#ds.

To Tories,right wingers and Harry Enfield Loadsamoney types she was a hero.

To myself(and millions of others), I wholly despised the rancid aul bitch. I took great pleasure in her demise and truly hope she suffered in her final days.

Good riddance to a stain on humanity.

Many, many people on this island are the bedfellows of some repugnant b$&%@#ds. I won't shed a tear when any of them die either. I know plenty of people who will though.