The Homophobia referendum

[sid]

oh, and the catholic circus beliefs are not a valid argument against.that organization abdicated it's right to make moral judgments when it covered up pedophilia cases.

It never had that right in the first place.

[honeyec]

I pointed out that there are other issues such as the inheritance issue. Believe me or not but I'd be fairly sure this will be an issue.
I do not agree with you that granting equal rights of marriage to gay couples will not affect me. Even something as simple as social welfare rights or more complex issues such as adoption rights will change.

Precisely how do the inheritance issues involved differ from those that exist where heterosexual couples marry? I'm genuinely curious as to what your argument is there.

And unless you're planning to give a child up for adoption some time in the next ten to fifteen years, when equal adoption rights might actually make it onto the agenda then no, granting equal marriage rights to gay couples won't affect you.

With regards to social wefare rights, tax issues, etc., what you're essentially saying is that straight people should be granted a privilege in this regard. That's a stance I literally cannot begin to get my head around.

[mfjoc]

To have children you need a male sperm + female egg, hence traditional family was man + woman + child(ren)
Most societies decided that the most stable way of organising the family was to create an institution called marriage
This has changed a lot as there are many different types of family in the 21st century
For same sex couples or mixed sex couples who don't want marriage there is an institution called civil partnership.
I am not sure what extra "rights" marriage would confer on a same sex couple that can't be covered by laws of civil partnership.
The liberal media think it is a big deal, probably as a way of stuffing the Catholic church.

I don't have strong views about it either way and think the referendum will be passed anyway.
Society will move on, but to me "his husband" or "her wife" just doesn't sound right.

[fourthirtythree]

Actually for most of the existence of humanity nuclear families were not the way society was organised.

Civil legal arrangements don't have anything to do with the catholic church.

And marriage is pretty much a tacked on addition to christianity. Jesus certainly didn't have anything to say about it: Paul did as the end of days stubbornly refused to arrive so they had to improvise. But Jesus? He was pretty anti-family. Marriage as imported into christianity comes from the classical Greek and Roman traditions and as such was a political rather than a religious decision (much like the catholic church's decision that priests couldn't marry, unlike most other Christian sects both Eastern and Western - purely to avoid simony and inheritance issues. Unlike monks - the monastic tradition of celibacy in the middle east predates Christianity and was adopted by them, priests married until the catholic church decided its secular wealth was of paramount importance).

[Broken Wing]

I am not sure what extra "rights" marriage would confer on a same sex couple that can't be covered by laws of civil partnership.
The liberal media think it is a big deal, probably as a way of stuffing the Catholic church.

Maybe you should take the time to find out instead of just dismissing it as the liberal media having a go at the church.

Try starting here: Over 160 statutory differences between civil partnership and civil marriage: http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

Denying same sex couples marriage does not stop same sex couples from having children. All it does is stop these families from being recognised in Irish law, and therefore stops children from being protected.

[Logorrhea]

You have a choice as to which side of history you want to be on. The side that said that it was OK to treat some members of society differently or the side that said we're all equal.

Best post on the thread. Sums it up perfectly me for me.

[domhnallj]

Try starting here: Over 160 statutory differences between civil partnership and civil marriage: http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

Denying same sex couples marriage does not stop same sex couples from having children. All it does is stop these families from being recognised in Irish law, and therefore stops children from being protected.

Thanks for that - had a quick look through. Can't these differences be addressed by changes to existing legislation?

[Broken Wing]

Try starting here: Over 160 statutory differences between civil partnership and civil marriage: http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

Denying same sex couples marriage does not stop same sex couples from having children. All it does is stop these families from being recognised in Irish law, and therefore stops children from being protected.

Thanks for that - had a quick look through. Can't these differences be addressed by changes to existing legislation?

Yes. They can be addressed by extending civil marriage to same sex couples.

[domhnallj]

Try starting here: Over 160 statutory differences between civil partnership and civil marriage: http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

Denying same sex couples marriage does not stop same sex couples from having children. All it does is stop these families from being recognised in Irish law, and therefore stops children from being protected.

Thanks for that - had a quick look through. Can't these differences be addressed by changes to existing legislation?

Yes. They can be addressed by extending civil marriage to same sex couples.

So why the need for a referendum? Change the required laws and let everyone get on with their lives. This is sounding like a cop out by the government - and look at their record of getting referenda passed by the people.

[Broken Wing]

Just this week in the Dáil Joe Higgins said that a referendum was not needed and legislation was sufficient. Enda responded that the legal advice the Government got when civil partnership arrangements were being drafted was that marriage might not be constitutional. “If an attempt was made to introduce legislation in this regard, we would be leaving ourselves open to challenge as a consequence.” As a result, a referendum on marriage equality for same-sex couples is necessary to have “certainty on such a sensitive issue”.

[Peg Leg]

There's no debate to be had here!
I think OS and his ilk are probably just to cynical of government and lobby groups etc.
It's OK OS, it's not about being pro aids and who's to say the married couples can't have kids? Then the kids can inherit a big gay fortune (should there be one)!!

[fourthirtythree]

Just this week in the Dáil Joe Higgins said that a referendum was not needed and legislation was sufficient. Enda responded that the legal advice the Government got when civil partnership arrangements were being drafted was that marriage might not be constitutional. “If an attempt was made to introduce legislation in this regard, we would be leaving ourselves open to challenge as a consequence.” As a result, a referendum on marriage equality for same-sex couples is necessary to have “certainty on such a sensitive issue”.

Were I in government I'd be perfectly happy to legislate the issue. Too many over worded amendments legislating by constitution. If I were to amend the constitution it would be to remove the preamble (and it is still binding precedent even if usually ignored that the whole constitution is to be read in the light of the religious guff in there) and a couple of other little bits and pieces.

[domhnallj]

There's no debate to be had here!
I think OS and his ilk are probably just to cynical of government and lobby groups etc.
It's OK OS, it's not about being pro aids and who's to say the married couples can't have kids? Then the kids can inherit a big gay fortune (should there be one)!!

Sorry to disagree, but this is the highest law we have and imposing a referendum on the people automatically requires a debate.

The recourse from the Taoiseach to 'legal advice' smacks of the same hand ringing that went on about the protection of their pay and pension (and don't forget their advisors/cronies). Draft and pass the legislation and then let these laws be challenged in the courts.

[Peg Leg]

There's no debate to be had here!
I think OS and his ilk are probably just to cynical of government and lobby groups etc.
It's OK OS, it's not about being pro aids and who's to say the married couples can't have kids? Then the kids can inherit a big gay fortune (should there be one)!!

Sorry to disagree, but this is the highest law we have and imposing a referendum on the people automatically requires a debate.

The recourse from the Taoiseach to 'legal advice' smacks of the same hand ringing that went on about the protection of their pay and pension (and don't forget their advisors/cronies). Draft and pass the legislation and then let these laws be challenged in the courts.

All true domhnallj, but there is no amount of arguing/debating is actually going to change anyone's mind. Should a referendum be held now or 3 months after the political campaign, I believe the results would be the same (albeit the turnout may be a tad higher).

[the spoofer]

As a heterosexual Alpha (my own self styling TBH) male I see no reason to change the status quo.

You see no reason to change the status quo because as a heterosexual it doesn't have any effect on you.

However, the good news is that changing the status quo will have absolutely no effect on you whatsoever either. Granting equal marriage rights to gay couples will have precisely zero effect on your life as it stands.

Given those circumstances, it genuinely puzzles me how anyone who isn't a religious zealot can have any objection to it.

Also, accusing those of us who think the LGBT community should have equal rights of "ill thought out political correctness" also tends to rankle, just fyi.

Sorry but the minute you add in the letter T into these discussions you lose me. As far as I'm concerned they are just people with mental issues. The gays and the lezzers are grand but some 6' 4" lad in high heels and a dress is just not right.

[paddyor]

What are the inheritance issues? Should I have sabotaged my sisters wedding to protect mine? Is there still time to sabotage her marriage?

[RoboProp]

What are the inheritance issues? Should I have sabotaged my sisters wedding to protect mine? Is there still time to sabotage her marriage?

Always! Right we're going to need 60 chickens, feed, a couple of flashbangs and laxatives. ..plenty of laxatives

[fourthirtythree]

Trans means something different from a drag performer....

[the spoofer]

Trans means something different from a drag performer....

No sh!t Shelock!

[blockhead]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrDVsprWRCQ