Neil Francis

[[Jackass]]

Hopefully, when people of an ignorant frame of mind see public outrage at such comments, it would force them to hide their opinions and be ashamed of them rather than people having to hide their sexuality and be ashamed of it.

The thing is, no body should have to hide their opinion no matter how ignorant you or I might find it. There is a time and place for discussion of all things and points of view. If you force people to hide their opinion then you force them underground. The loopers in the Iona inst have a right to say they believe the magic man in the sky that no one ever sees thinks that Gays are bad. Just as Gays have to fight for their cause. However, there is a time and place.

I persnally have had it up to my tits with it being forced down my neck everytime I open the paper. Its now spread to the back pages for christs sake! ARrrrrghhh!!! Is there no escape!!

Well no, I respect peoples right to have an opinion, but if you're racist, you should be ashamed of it and if you share that opinion you should expect to be ostracized in society, the reason being that you don't respect other peoples equality based on trivial matters, so whilst you can express those opinions (although I'm pretty sure racist rhetoric could land you in prison for inciting hatred), I would much prefer a person be ashamed of hate filled or closed minded opinions than for someone to be ashamed of having a certain sexual persuasion not of their own choosing and not harming anybody.

[Stuka]

Hopefully, when people of an ignorant frame of mind see public outrage at such comments, it would force them to hide their opinions and be ashamed of them rather than people having to hide their sexuality and be ashamed of it.

The thing is, no body should have to hide their opinion no matter how ignorant you or I might find it. There is a time and place for discussion of all things and points of view. If you force people to hide their opinion then you force them underground. The loopers in the Iona inst have a right to say they believe the magic man in the sky that no one ever sees thinks that Gays are bad. Just as Gays have to fight for their cause. However, there is a time and place.

I persnally have had it up to my tits with it being forced down my neck everytime I open the paper. Its now spread to the back pages for christs sake! ARrrrrghhh!!! Is there no escape!!

Well no, I respect peoples right to have an opinion, but if you're racist, you should be ashamed of it and if you share that opinion you should expect to be ostracized in society, the reason being that you don't respect other peoples equality based on trivial matters, so whilst you can express those opinions (although I'm pretty sure racist rhetoric could land you in prison for inciting hatred), I would much prefer a person be ashamed of hate filled or closed minded opinions than for someone to be ashamed of having a certain sexual persuasion not of their own choosing and not harming anybody.

50 years ago it was worse to be gay then it was to be racist. Actually, if you go far enough into the countryside it still is!!!

Yes racist people should be ashamed, but they are not becuse they are ignorant. To combat that you dont sweep it under the carpet and say "BAD". You bring it out in thr open and discuss it, teach people. If you cant change their mind you might change the mind of their children.

[[Jackass]]

The thing is, no body should have to hide their opinion no matter how ignorant you or I might find it. There is a time and place for discussion of all things and points of view. If you force people to hide their opinion then you force them underground. The loopers in the Iona inst have a right to say they believe the magic man in the sky that no one ever sees thinks that Gays are bad. Just as Gays have to fight for their cause. However, there is a time and place.

I persnally have had it up to my tits with it being forced down my neck everytime I open the paper. Its now spread to the back pages for christs sake! ARrrrrghhh!!! Is there no escape!!

Well no, I respect peoples right to have an opinion, but if you're racist, you should be ashamed of it and if you share that opinion you should expect to be ostracized in society, the reason being that you don't respect other peoples equality based on trivial matters, so whilst you can express those opinions (although I'm pretty sure racist rhetoric could land you in prison for inciting hatred), I would much prefer a person be ashamed of hate filled or closed minded opinions than for someone to be ashamed of having a certain sexual persuasion not of their own choosing and not harming anybody.

50 years ago it was worse to be gay then it was to be racist. Actually, if you go far enough into the countryside it still is!!!

Yes racist people should be ashamed, but they are not becuse they are ignorant. To combat that you dont sweep it under the carpet and say "BAD". You bring it out in thr open and discuss it, teach people. If you cant change their mind you might change the mind of their children.

Exactly, so then why are you so annoyed about gay issues being discussed in the media when prejudice still exists?

[johng]

I can remember when it was perfectly fine to smoke a cigarette in a maternity ward. In fact people used to sit around the bed of a new born infant, all 10 of them (inc the mother) smoking.

In a few years time gay people not having equality will be just as shocking to people under 30 as the above is to people under 30 now. (some of whom could have been that baby)

Things change. Sometimes rapidly. Sometimes not rapidly enough.

[paddyor]

That is not true. It is not anti gay. To run an event you have to apply for a permit and you have to run by those rules. It can not be political in any way. The Gay Rights issue is a political one.

Yes i do see the irony in that as the NYC Patricks day parade is a big LOOK AT US IRISH YOU NEED OUR VOTE parade.

The parade IIRC is run by the Ancient Order of Hibernians who have barred homosexuals from taking part the reason IMO being the same they didn't let them in the first place. Their reasoning is that "queers" are bad. That's "moral" rather than political

[Stuka]

Im not annoyed that it is being discussed. Im annoyed that it is being forced into every fauct of my day. There is a time and place for rational discussion by informed people. It's everywhere now. Its even gotten to the sports section thanks to Neil Francis.

There are far more pressing issues in this counrty then the right for two people to be married. We have people dying on trollies in hospitals, the weakest of all people those with learning difficulties are being denyed medical cards and education because of cuts. These LIFE AND DEATH things should be the main focus of our media but they instead feed on something that they know is going to get peoples hackles up.

Jesus i feel the world has gone mad sometimes.

[Stuka]

One more thing. If i was Gay I would be MORTIFIED that a person as hollow and self serving as Panti-Bliss was all over the paper portrayed as my champion. What an empty vessel!!

[Broken Wing]

Im not annoyed that it is being discussed. Im annoyed that it is being forced into every fauct of my day. There is a time and place for rational discussion by informed people. It's everywhere now. Its even gotten to the sports section thanks to Neil Francis.

It's in the sports section because of Putin, Sochi and Michael Sam. Francis was asked about it because it's in the sports news at the moment and he decided, rather than brushing it aside and moving on, to demonstrate his own prejudice and annoy the majority of his audience.

How do you know about people dying on trollies and medical card denials if they weren't covered in the media?

[Stuka]

Im not annoyed that it is being discussed. Im annoyed that it is being forced into every fauct of my day. There is a time and place for rational discussion by informed people. It's everywhere now. Its even gotten to the sports section thanks to Neil Francis.

It's in the sports section because of Putin, Sochi and Michael Sam. Francis was asked about it because it's in the sports news at the moment and he decided, rather than brushing it aside and moving on, to demonstrate his own prejudice and annoy the majority of his audience.

How do you know about people dying on trollies and medical card denials if they weren't covered in the media?

Because my mother died in agony over 2 days on one (That NEVER made the media) and because my friends child with DS has had her card taken away and she does not have the right to go to school the same as every other person.

[johng]

One more thing. If i was Gay I would be MORTIFIED that a person as hollow and self serving as Panti-Bliss was all over the paper portrayed as my champion. What an empty vessel!!

I'm sure some of them are. But that's the thing about gay people. They are not defined completely as people by their "gayness" That's something other people do for them.

Like people who say they don't like sports because they are gay for example. That was a classic.

[Stuka]

One more thing. If i was Gay I would be MORTIFIED that a person as hollow and self serving as Panti-Bliss was all over the paper portrayed as my champion. What an empty vessel!!

I'm sure some of them are. But that's the thing about gay people. They are not defined completely as people by their "gayness" That's something other people do for them.

Like people who say they don't like sports because they are gay for example. That was a classic.

Where do i say that? I said Pantibliss is hollow and self serving.

[johng]

One more thing. If i was Gay I would be MORTIFIED that a person as hollow and self serving as Panti-Bliss was all over the paper portrayed as my champion. What an empty vessel!!

I'm sure some of them are. But that's the thing about gay people. They are not defined completely as people by their "gayness" That's something other people do for them.

Like people who say they don't like sports because they are gay for example. That was a classic.

Where do i say that? I said Pantibliss is hollow and self serving.

Where do I say that you said that?

[Broken Wing]

Im not annoyed that it is being discussed. Im annoyed that it is being forced into every fauct of my day. There is a time and place for rational discussion by informed people. It's everywhere now. Its even gotten to the sports section thanks to Neil Francis.

It's in the sports section because of Putin, Sochi and Michael Sam. Francis was asked about it because it's in the sports news at the moment and he decided, rather than brushing it aside and moving on, to demonstrate his own prejudice and annoy the majority of his audience.

How do you know about people dying on trollies and medical card denials if they weren't covered in the media?

Because my mother died in agony over 2 days on one (That NEVER made the media) and because my friends child with DS has had her card taken away and she does not have the right to go to school the same as every other person.

Well I'm very sorry for your loss and for your friend's troubles but I have heard trolley counts and medical cards on the news for months.

The news and political agenda in this country seems to be driven by Joe Duffy's show and whatever is on Prime Time (especially if there's a Late Late follow up). It's very much a flavour of the moment agenda and things flare up but then die away without anything being done as something else flares up. There's always an issue that people think should be getting more attention but isn't because our politicians are busy covering ass over garda penalty points, ombudsman bugging, CRC pensions, flood preparations or whatever next week's issue is.

[johng]

Im not annoyed that it is being discussed. Im annoyed that it is being forced into every fauct of my day. There is a time and place for rational discussion by informed people. It's everywhere now. Its even gotten to the sports section thanks to Neil Francis.

It's in the sports section because of Putin, Sochi and Michael Sam. Francis was asked about it because it's in the sports news at the moment and he decided, rather than brushing it aside and moving on, to demonstrate his own prejudice and annoy the majority of his audience.

How do you know about people dying on trollies and medical card denials if they weren't covered in the media?

Because my mother died in agony over 2 days on one (That NEVER made the media) and because my friends child with DS has had her card taken away and she does not have the right to go to school the same as every other person.

I am also very sorry to hear that. and it is understandable that you would champion a worthy cause like that because of personal involvement. (Not saying it is ONLY because of that)

If you had a gay son or brother or whatever you may find you felt the different about that issue too.

[Stuka]

Thanks, I did not throw that in there to look for a killer blow or to get sympathy by the way. It was straight answer to a straight question.

Look I know my arguement is flawed in lots of ways and I know as i have never been in the posisition of being discriminated against I dont know what its like.

I suppose what im trying to say is that I feel the point is being laboured now in the media. Worse its been picked up by idiots like Panti Bliss and Neil Francis. If these are the sort of people that make the papers what chance do we have of rational discussion.

Anyway, enough shite from me. Im off the vending machine. I win everytime on it.

[johng]

Look I know my arguement is flawed in lots of ways and I know as i have never been in the posisition of being discriminated against I dont know what its like.

That's fair enough. Travelling to England during the hunger strikes might have opened your eyes on being discriminated against (especially if you had a beard), as I'm sure going through US (or other) airports in Muslim clothing now would do.

The thing about being discriminated against is that it makes strange bedfellows. James Connolly and Patrick Pearse to name but 2.

I'm sure a lot of gay people may not enjoy going out for a few pints with yerman Bliss (Who I know feck all about by the way) but if he is speaking up for their issues they may at least not criticise him for it.

[CiaranIrl]

Im not annoyed that it is being discussed. Im annoyed that it is being forced into every fauct of my day. There is a time and place for rational discussion by informed people. It's everywhere now. Its even gotten to the sports section thanks to Neil Francis.

There are far more pressing issues in this counrty then the right for two people to be married. We have people dying on trollies in hospitals, the weakest of all people those with learning difficulties are being denyed medical cards and education because of cuts. These LIFE AND DEATH things should be the main focus of our media but they instead feed on something that they know is going to get peoples hackles up.

Jesus i feel the world has gone mad sometimes.

Issues get press due to public interest, not because of some sort of where they appear on a sadness scale. Why not just remove the entire sports section from every newspaper and replace it with horror stories of people in poverty?

[johng]

Issues get press due to public interest,

Not so sure about that. I have yet to meet someone who gives a flying fock about gsoc. Now there is an issue that is wall to wall that I (yes, just me personally and a few people I have spoken to privately) wish was not being "rammed down my throat"

[Oldschool]

This topic probably should be in the "The Homophobia Referendum" thread in General Chat as it's not really a Leinster issue.
I would have to add tho' that there is a lot of what I would describe as bully type posting. Just because somebody doesn't agree with something don't assume that you are right and they are wrong or that they are making valid points or even trying to give an honest and open opinion on something.
In most cases none of us know other posters well enough to really judge them morally.
I'd have to say that appalled as some of you seem to have been at my opening post (and I suggest that some of you who have already read it, read it again and reappraise some of the assumptions you might have made) I found the reaction equally appalling and am glad that if there ever were Kangaroo courts in Ireland they don't exist now.
Stop assuming that so and so is a racist or homophobic and actually discuss the issues that may or may not be relevant (As one poster rightly pointed out there will be scare mongering etc). A central question is why would anyone vote no and if your immediate response to that question is that they are so an so whatever kind of bigots then it's the wrong answer.
What is homophobia, how do you recognise it in somebody, what makes them homophobic, are there degrees of homophobia (I suspect there are as there is in all types of prejudice) and furthermore does it necessarily mean they will vote against gay marriage.
We all have prejudices surely the issue is how we overcome or override them rather than that we already have them.
How many of you have woken up some morning and suddenly decided out of the blue. I'm going to be a racist today unless some majorly traumatic event had influenced you.
How do you suddenly become un-prejudiced about something. Come up with answer to that answer and you will end most of the major international disputes around the globe.
Bottom line approach the subject with an open mind and accept that the comments made by other posters are made genuinely.

[Oldschool]

Issues get press due to public interest,

Not so sure about that. I have yet to meet someone who gives a flying fock about gsoc. Now there is an issue that is wall to wall that I (yes, just me personally and a few people I have spoken to privately) wish was not being "rammed down my throat"

The whole GSOC is a total load of shyte and why we are still hearing about it is down to two things egos and politicians.