Marriage Equality Referendum

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Do you approve of the proposed amendment to the Constitution?

Yes
35
81%
No
8
19%
Abstain
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 43

Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby hugonaut » May 23rd, 2015, 7:32 am

jezzer wrote:I voted yes.

But, unlike most on here, I don't believe that the grounds for a no vote are entirely baseless by any means. My grasp of the Constitution is shaky, but I think there's enough in its fairly unique contextualisation of the family that a yes vote could spawn in the future more challenging and complex questions. It's perfectly true that a yes vote doesn't automatically change anything, but the path is open for wider changes to be sought by interest groups or individuals on the basis of the changed "constitutional identity" that is afforded by a yes vote.

I'm OK with that, on balance. Not everybody is.

I'm not OK with being just as bigoted towards those who are no voters as certain no voters are towards gay people.


Very similar in a number of regards, Jazzer. I voted yes to both amendments, but I know very reasonable people who voted no to either/both of them and haven't lost any respect for them whatsoever. They didn't make a big deal of it or go around trying to convince other people to change their vote, but it was clear from conversations that they were very likely to vote no. I don't have to agree with everything friends/family/colleagues do to like or respect them.

Of course, there are a lot of people on the public/official 'No' side who I didn't have much [if any] respect for in the first place, and wouldn't want to be on their side of the argument in any case – John Waters, Breda O'Brien et al. I found their arguments to be really weak on an intellectual level. I have no doubt that they fully believed in their cause [i.e. they weren't doing it just to be controversial], but to my mind they couldn't really make a compelling argument against the amendment, while the public/official 'Yes' side had quite a lot of good answers and presented them in a measured and convincing way. I also found a lot of the personal narratives from gay friends/former college mates/colleagues very affecting. It was clear that it was a huge deal to them and that they saw it in many ways as more than just a referendum on marriage, but as a vote on attitudes and acceptance.

I agree that there may be other issues further down the line – the law of unintended consequences and all that – but the propensity of the 'No' side to bring all these circumstantial possibilities to the fore and not have adequate answers or rebuttals to the case at hand only served to highlight [to me, at least] that there didn't seem to be any good reason to vote no and quite a few good reasons to vote yes.

With regards to the presidential age referendum, I believe that people should be judged on their own merits. I voted in the morning on the way to work, and passed my polling office on the way back from work, where some poor old dear with her husband in the passenger street was making a pretty dreadful hash of pulling her car out into traffic. It struck me that while the majority of 80+ year olds may not be particularly good drivers anymore, there are some that are still completely capable. I wouldn't revoke anybody's driving licence without cause just because they've reached the age of 80. While the majority of those under 35 mightn't have the judgment or experience to be the head of state, there might very well be those few who do, and who could bring vigour and purpose to the role. Who's to say that they're too young at 25 or 29 or 34?
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby offshorerules » May 23rd, 2015, 11:25 am

Looks like it is going to pass comfortably.
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 23rd, 2015, 12:24 pm

I was thinking the other day that it's not just important to win but to win by a big margin, it looks like that's going to be the case and I think that's a hugely positive statement by society.
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby Oldschool » May 23rd, 2015, 2:04 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I was thinking the other day that it's not just important to win but to win by a big margin, it looks like that's going to be the case and I think that's a hugely positive statement by society.

One huge advantage of a big margin is that the body politic have been empowered to properly address the issues/problems.
A tight margin similar to the abortion referenda would have left the government (and politicians in general) in no man's land searching for ways to dodge the issues.
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby jezzer » May 23rd, 2015, 5:46 pm

Avenger wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:What exactly is the worry about a gay couple taking a case like that?

I'd love to hear the answer to this myself.


Jaysis, I'm trying to point out that not all no voters have to be homophobes or assholes.

Im not about to try and make/prove their entire argument. I'll leave that to people who actually voted no.
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby Oldschool » May 23rd, 2015, 6:11 pm

jezzer wrote:
Avenger wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:What exactly is the worry about a gay couple taking a case like that?

I'd love to hear the answer to this myself.


Jaysis, I'm trying to point out that not all no voters have to be homophobes or assholes.

Im not about to try and make/prove their entire argument. I'll leave that to people who actually voted no.

I know some assholes who voted yes.
I may be wrong, but I would suggest that homophobia is a far greater issue for males than females and yet quite a few women will have voted no.
Interestingly a group of nuns I know of, all voted Yes or at least said they were voting Yes and you'd have to take them at their word.
In general you can stereotype the fringe elements but it's fair to say that 90% of the people who voted yesterday did so for valid reasons as they saw it.
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby Hippo » May 23rd, 2015, 7:55 pm

The No campaign produced a remarkable number of red herrings - the surrogacy argument being the real peach. There is no legislative provision regarding surrogacy as things stand and it is frankly impossible to see how this constitutional amendment might affect the issue down the road. Delighted with the result.
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby Grumpy Old Man » May 23rd, 2015, 8:13 pm

Hippo wrote:The No campaign produced a remarkable number of red herrings - the surrogacy argument being the real peach.


Knowledge is knowing that a red herring is a fruit...
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby RoboProp » May 23rd, 2015, 9:58 pm

So, when do the gays commence with the children snatching or whatever codology the no crowd were spewing. Seriously though, the little man has a dirty nappy that needs sorting so if they take care of that it'll be much appreciated
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby Dave Cahill » May 23rd, 2015, 10:14 pm

RoboProp wrote:So, when do the gays commence with the children snatching or whatever codology the no crowd were spewing. Seriously though, the little man has a dirty nappy that needs sorting so if they take care of that it'll be much appreciated


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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby johng » May 24th, 2015, 2:06 am

Surrogacy and adoption are serious (and massively complex) issues. But nothing to do with this.

If you can't have a child because you are infertile. Does that make you better than someone who can't have a child for other reasons?
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 24th, 2015, 11:50 am

jezzer wrote:
Avenger wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:What exactly is the worry about a gay couple taking a case like that?

I'd love to hear the answer to this myself.


Jaysis, I'm trying to point out that not all no voters have to be homophobes or assholes.

Im not about to try and make/prove their entire argument. I'll leave that to people who actually voted no.


But you went on at length about there being a concern about same sex married couple going to court without actually saying what they'd be hoping to happen as a result of the case, it's a pretty simple, and valid, question.
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby Hippo » May 24th, 2015, 12:21 pm

Grumpy Old Man wrote:
Hippo wrote:The No campaign produced a remarkable number of red herrings - the surrogacy argument being the real peach.


Knowledge is knowing that a red herring is a fruit...


Quite. There was drink taken...
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby deco » May 24th, 2015, 5:13 pm

The same electorate that were so vocal and passionate for "equality for everyone" decided in the privacy of the polling station that under 35 year olds aren't entitled to the same rights as over 35s. We recently also voted to remove the right of some children born in Ireland to citizenship. "Equality for some, but not for all" would have been more apt.
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby Oldschool » May 24th, 2015, 10:34 pm

So Deco.
By your reckoning the people who voted overwhelmingly for one amendment hadn't a clue what they were doing when they voted overwhelmingly against the other amendment.
That does not compute.
If a heavily pregnant woman, with absolutely no association with this country, flies into this country to have her baby etc then who exactlty is taking the p!ss with our system.
I know exactly where my vote would go and furthermore I'll be f^cked if my hard earned taxes should be abused in such a way, particularly when there is so much else needing fixing. If you disagree then I suggest you send your money to an appropriate body.
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Re: Marriage Equality Referendum

Postby TheBear » May 25th, 2015, 11:02 pm

Avenger wrote:
Oldschool wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:What exactly is the worry about a gay couple taking a case like that?

Far more likely in the short term.
A gay couple will call up to their local pp and ask him to marry them.

No they won't.

And even if they do, the local pp won't be obliged to marry them.

We haven't seen long lines of divorced people forcing Catholic priests to marry them. Why would we expect a different outcome this time around?
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