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Re: Brexit

Postby Hornet » February 20th, 2019, 5:06 pm

The Doc wrote:
johng wrote:V good. Bendydick Cumbersnatch was entertaining in it. And the portrayal of Farage. :lol:


Yeah. But a bit like the film about Facebook - those who have a real interest will get annoyed by the factual inaccuracies. But I guess it does capture the sense of the vote being won on a vague appeal to a nostalgic notion which actually had little grounding in reality

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Re: Brexit

Postby Ruckedtobits » February 20th, 2019, 10:40 pm

So, the new Independent grouping have nutralised the effect of the DUP Block. It estimated that if they can get another 20, they would nullify the ERG. The first signs of sanity and principle returning to British politics?
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Re: Brexit

Postby FLIP » February 20th, 2019, 10:46 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:So, the new Independent grouping have nutralised the effect of the DUP Block. It estimated that if they can get another 20, they would nullify the ERG. The first signs of sanity and principle returning to British politics?


They still won't counteract the covertly pro Brexit Labour party leadership.
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Re: Brexit

Postby hugonaut » February 20th, 2019, 11:56 pm

The Doc wrote:
johng wrote:V good. Bendydick Cumbersnatch was entertaining in it. And the portrayal of Farage. :lol:


Yeah. But a bit like the film about Facebook - those who have a real interest will get annoyed by the factual inaccuracies. But I guess it does capture the sense of the vote being won on a vague appeal to a nostalgic notion which actually had little grounding in reality


I thought it was excellent, but I see where you're coming from.

However, I felt that the crafting of the screenplay that brought so many elements together [from farcical characters like Farage, to the poignant 'left-behind' couple, to the genuine problems in communication and tolerance – exhibited by all sides – in the focus group scenes] and made a coherent and well-paced story was a big accomplishment. Thought that Cumberbatch's characterisation was first-rate as well, pretty mesmerising.

I read Cumming's blog about a year after [source: https://dominiccummings.com/2017/06/23/ ... e-heavens/ ] and was really impressed by his lucidity, but the film made me rethink my opinion of him. Brexit is going to be really tough for so many people in the UK, and it seems like he put the campaign together without recognising this, or perhaps without caring about it.

On of my issues with him would be that, like many prominent Brexiters, he seems completely economically insulated from the damage that is starting to occur. It's much easier to lie back and think of England when you're lying back in a feather bed. He went to a 600 year old school [Durham College] and a 700 year old university [Exeter College, Oxford]. He's married to a baronet's daughter [who is now dep. ed. of The Spectator], he worked as a Sp.Ad. to various conservative politicians for more than a decade. I don't hold that against him as much as it probably reads like I do, but I think it's relevant.

He has a lot of very interesting ideas and was absolutely central to the whole idea of Brexit, but he seems to be completely absent from the reality of it. People [rightly, in my opinion] give Cameron sh*t for starting the affair rolling and then bailing out under the pretext that because he campaigned for the other side, he's not the right man for the job ... another way of looking at it is that he didn't have the integrity to work to help resolve the problem that he had authored.

I see Cummings in the same light. It seems [from interviews I've read] that he really believed in the potential benefits of Britain leaving the EU, and he clearly was a central figure in the Brexit movement. It's difficult to see him being entirely frozen out if he wanted to be involved. But it doesn't look like he wants to be involved, or that he has the durability of purpose to deal with the downsides of being involved.

In campaigning, he saw a way to do something extremely clever, to prove how perceptive he was, and to get something that he wanted half-accomplished. But delivering what he promised [to the wider public, not the people who paid him to win a campaign] is a lot more difficult than he said it would be, and from my perspective he looks to have shied away from that much harder job of work.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Hornet » February 21st, 2019, 12:03 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:So, the new Independent grouping have nutralised the effect of the DUP Block. It estimated that if they can get another 20, they would nullify the ERG. The first signs of sanity and principle returning to British politics?

They should resign their seats and seek a mandate from their Constituents if they were that concerned with Democracy.
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Re: Brexit

Postby ribs » February 21st, 2019, 12:14 am

Hornet wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:So, the new Independent grouping have nutralised the effect of the DUP Block. It estimated that if they can get another 20, they would nullify the ERG. The first signs of sanity and principle returning to British politics?

They should resign their seats and seek a mandate from their Constituents if they were that concerned with Democracy.

What? Every time they might disagree with some of their constituents views? Perhaps hold a poll about everything so they know how to vote on each issue? Ridiculous
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Re: Brexit

Postby FLIP » February 21st, 2019, 7:32 am

ribs wrote:
Hornet wrote:They should resign their seats and seek a mandate from their Constituents if they were that concerned with Democracy.

What? Every time they might disagree with some of their constituents views? Perhaps hold a poll about everything so they know how to vote on each issue? Ridiculous


Their constituents voted for a anti Brexit party who proclaimed equality for all. Instead they ended up with a pro Brexit anti semetic party. No mandate needed.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Doc » February 21st, 2019, 11:04 am

FLIP wrote:
ribs wrote:
Hornet wrote:They should resign their seats and seek a mandate from their Constituents if they were that concerned with Democracy.

What? Every time they might disagree with some of their constituents views? Perhaps hold a poll about everything so they know how to vote on each issue? Ridiculous


Their constituents voted for a anti Brexit party who proclaimed equality for all. Instead they ended up with a pro Brexit anti semetic party. No mandate needed.


I've seen this argument - but you can't claim on one hand that there should be a bye election because things have changed and yet say there can't ever be a referendum even when things have changed.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Doc » February 21st, 2019, 11:12 am

hugonaut wrote:
The Doc wrote:
johng wrote:V good. Bendydick Cumbersnatch was entertaining in it. And the portrayal of Farage. :lol:


Yeah. But a bit like the film about Facebook - those who have a real interest will get annoyed by the factual inaccuracies. But I guess it does capture the sense of the vote being won on a vague appeal to a nostalgic notion which actually had little grounding in reality


I thought it was excellent, but I see where you're coming from.

However, I felt that the crafting of the screenplay that brought so many elements together [from farcical characters like Farage, to the poignant 'left-behind' couple, to the genuine problems in communication and tolerance – exhibited by all sides – in the focus group scenes] and made a coherent and well-paced story was a big accomplishment. Thought that Cumberbatch's characterisation was first-rate as well, pretty mesmerising.

I read Cumming's blog about a year after [source: https://dominiccummings.com/2017/06/23/ ... e-heavens/ ] and was really impressed by his lucidity, but the film made me rethink my opinion of him. Brexit is going to be really tough for so many people in the UK, and it seems like he put the campaign together without recognising this, or perhaps without caring about it.

On of my issues with him would be that, like many prominent Brexiters, he seems completely economically insulated from the damage that is starting to occur. It's much easier to lie back and think of England when you're lying back in a feather bed. He went to a 600 year old school [Durham College] and a 700 year old university [Exeter College, Oxford]. He's married to a baronet's daughter [who is now dep. ed. of The Spectator], he worked as a Sp.Ad. to various conservative politicians for more than a decade. I don't hold that against him as much as it probably reads like I do, but I think it's relevant.

He has a lot of very interesting ideas and was absolutely central to the whole idea of Brexit, but he seems to be completely absent from the reality of it. People [rightly, in my opinion] give Cameron sh*t for starting the affair rolling and then bailing out under the pretext that because he campaigned for the other side, he's not the right man for the job ... another way of looking at it is that he didn't have the integrity to work to help resolve the problem that he had authored.

I see Cummings in the same light. It seems [from interviews I've read] that he really believed in the potential benefits of Britain leaving the EU, and he clearly was a central figure in the Brexit movement. It's difficult to see him being entirely frozen out if he wanted to be involved. But it doesn't look like he wants to be involved, or that he has the durability of purpose to deal with the downsides of being involved.

In campaigning, he saw a way to do something extremely clever, to prove how perceptive he was, and to get something that he wanted half-accomplished. But delivering what he promised [to the wider public, not the people who paid him to win a campaign] is a lot more difficult than he said it would be, and from my perspective he looks to have shied away from that much harder job of work.


I think the screenplay placed way too much influence on the Cummings character. I know it's a tool used by writers to consolidate a number of things into a single character to focus the narrative. But the film gave very little weight to the coordinated on-line campaigns that did not come from the official campaign and had nothing obviously to do with Cummings. It also dumbed down the Farage element when in fact it seems the two campaigns were playing a good cop / bad cop routine with Farage saying the things the official campaign couldn't and therefore appealing to certain markets. It also completely glossed over the various illegalities of the campaign (it did add a footnote at the end I guess) including finance breaches, sock puppetry and illegal data sharing. Also - the narrative that he won by finding and targeting a group of non-voters (20% I think) and persuading them to vote has I think been pretty much debunked. They did target occasional voters but there was also voter suppression and a targeting of "on the fence" voters with unsubstantiated claims.

I do think the scenes around the focus groups were really good - that did capture complex concepts in a really good format
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Re: Brexit

Postby fourthirtythree » February 21st, 2019, 11:12 am

You can claim anything if you spray it with Brexit unicorn jizz. Anything.

I do love how the nakedly racist and xenophobic party and news media use racism as their go to attack on their others. It's a beautiful exemplar of the big lie in propaganda. If you believe that unicorn jizz is only a step away!
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Re: Brexit

Postby FLIP » February 21st, 2019, 12:54 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:You can claim anything if you spray it with Brexit unicorn jizz. Anything.

I do love how the nakedly racist and xenophobic party and news media use racism as their go to attack on their others. It's a beautiful exemplar of the big lie in propaganda. If you believe that unicorn jizz is only a step away!


A colourful accusation but as always, citation needed.

Here's mine with loads of items showing the huge problem with anti-Semitism the Labour party has:

Twitter chain with many incidents with source: https://twitter.com/Mendelpol/status/97 ... 09153?s=09

Reddit thread full of events with source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/com ... _credible/

There is an openly racist and xenophobic party, it is Labour.
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Re: Brexit

Postby johng » February 21st, 2019, 2:19 pm

Pardon me for my lack of info on the subject but is there a possibility that people are spinning pro Palestinian or breing against Israeli expansion as anti Semitic?
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Re: Brexit

Postby FLIP » February 21st, 2019, 2:33 pm

johng wrote:Pardon me for my lack of info on the subject but is there a possibility that people are spinning pro Palestinian or breing against Israeli expansion as anti Semitic?


Some cases may be this, but each instance has sources so you can judge for yourself. Plenty of clear cut anti-Semitism in those sources anyway.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Laighin Break » February 21st, 2019, 2:34 pm

johng wrote:Pardon me for my lack of info on the subject but is there a possibility that people are spinning pro Palestinian or being against Israeli expansion as anti Semitic?


It's what the do in the US anyway. A few democrats have been accused of being anti-Semitic as of late for (rightly) criticising Israel. There was an interesting episode of The Daily podcast (NY Times) about it on Tuesday
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Re: Brexit

Postby johng » February 21st, 2019, 2:52 pm

FLIP wrote:Plenty of clear cut anti-Semitism in those sources anyway.

Then why lump in the rest?
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Re: Brexit

Postby FLIP » February 21st, 2019, 4:10 pm

johng wrote:
FLIP wrote:Plenty of clear cut anti-Semitism in those sources anyway.

Then why lump in the rest?


As with all cases a curated list of events like those I have provided will suffer from the biases of those who produced them. They may view them in isolation as no issue, but in the wider view of all events a dog whistle.
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Re: Brexit

Postby johng » February 21st, 2019, 6:31 pm

FLIP wrote:
johng wrote:
FLIP wrote:Plenty of clear cut anti-Semitism in those sources anyway.

Then why lump in the rest?


As with all cases a curated list of events like those I have provided will suffer from the biases of those who produced them. They may view them in isolation as no issue, but in the wider view of all events a dog whistle.


So according to my biasses then it's all a load of chyte drummed up by some gun toting christian fundamentalist who doesn't like anything further left that Attila the Hun.

No idea what the 2nd sentence means.
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Re: Brexit

Postby FLIP » February 21st, 2019, 8:31 pm

johng wrote:So according to my biasses then it's all a load of chyte drummed up by some gun toting christian fundamentalist who doesn't like anything further left that Attila the Hun.

No idea what the 2nd sentence means.


Even the ones which are clear cut, which there are plenty of? Seems like you're throwing the baby out with the bath water because of a few data points you don't agree with.

The second sentence conveys the idea that the people who created those lists believed that they were relevant because anti-Zionism is a gateway to anti-Semetism. Not that I agree with that idea but when the creator is victim of anti-Semitism I can see why they go there - and clearly Macron agrees with them: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47313725
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Re: Brexit

Postby johng » February 21st, 2019, 9:12 pm

According to the link you posted anti Zionism is believing the state of Israel shouldn't exist.

That's quite different to believing it shouldn't encroach any further into Palestine.

Or that Palestinian people shouldn't have any rights to a state.

There are plenty of Israeli citizens who are against the expansion too. And who believe in a two state solution.
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Re: Brexit

Postby FLIP » February 21st, 2019, 9:35 pm

johng wrote:According to the link you posted anti Zionism is believing the state of Israel shouldn't exist.

That's quite different to believing it shouldn't encroach any further into Palestine.

Or that Palestinian people shouldn't have any rights to a state.

There are plenty of Israeli citizens who are against the expansion too. And who believe in a two state solution.


Yes there are. Which is why I said I personally didn't agree with the idea of being anti Zionist in the traditional sense is a gateway to anti-Semetism. I'd argue that the definition of anti Zionism given in the BBC article is anti semetic anyway, and merely confuses things.

You're still not addressing the issue of how a few incidents you believe aren't anti-Semetism ends up with you rejecting other incidents which clearly are?
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