U20s Rugby - What Club?

[davidhealy-no1-]

Yep im refering to sides like Cill Dara, Seapint, Navan, Garda, Monkstown, Portlaoise etc

I think the first three teams mentioned would demolish any top 20's side and that any other leinster league j1 side would manage to beat them also.....

[simonno6]

I think the J1 sides would win every time just due to sheer size... Its a similar argument to saying that a truly outstanding senior cup team would beat an mid-table 20's side (UCD for example)... It just wouldnt happen. UCD would hammer them every time.

[cj]

I think the J1 sides would win every time just due to sheer size... Its a similar argument to saying that a truly outstanding senior cup team would beat an mid-table 20's side (UCD for example)... It just wouldnt happen. UCD would hammer them every time.

UCD are not a mid-table u20s side...they've been among the top 3-4 almost every year for the last decade. I would actually wager that the very top schools team would easily beat u20 sides like Old Wesley, Bective, Suttonians, Wanderers etc etc.

Going back to previous debate, everyone seems to be ignoring my earlier comment! Anyone making the starting pack for DUFC or Lansdownes' u20s this season would have been close to their 1st XV packs (and as said earlier, by the end of the year, 4-5 guys from the Trinity u20 pack were starting for the 1sts). With this in mind, how can people justify the argument that a side like Navan would have the wherewithall to bully such teams off the park? You don't suddenly become massive when you become 21! A lot of guys are late developers I know, but a lot of others who played serious rugby at school have pretty much stayed the same size from the age of 18-19 on.

[simonno6]

I think the J1 sides would win every time just due to sheer size... Its a similar argument to saying that a truly outstanding senior cup team would beat an mid-table 20's side (UCD for example)... It just wouldnt happen. UCD would hammer them every time.

UCD are not a mid-table u20s side...they've been among the top 3-4 almost every year for the last decade. I would actually wager that the very top schools team would easily beat u20 sides like Old Wesley, Bective, Suttonians, Wanderers etc etc.

Going back to previous debate, everyone seems to be ignoring my earlier comment! Anyone making the starting pack for DUFC or Lansdownes' u20s this season would have been close to their 1st XV packs (and as said earlier, by the end of the year, 4-5 guys from the Trinity u20 pack were starting for the 1sts). With this in mind, how can people justify the argument that a side like Navan would have the wherewithall to bully such teams off the park? You don't suddenly become massive when you become 21! A lot of guys are late developers I know, but a lot of others who played serious rugby at school have pretty much stayed the same size from the age of 18-19 on.

Not for lansdowne - only the leinster academy prop ruarai murphy was a 20's player up front who played for the 1sts, and he did so all season - only played in the latter stages of the mccorry cup for lansdowne - For trinity your right though including a prop friend of mine (who played at least a half for the 20's every week whilst starting for the 1sts) and their american number 8.

[cj]

Going back to previous debate, everyone seems to be ignoring my earlier comment! Anyone making the starting pack for DUFC or Lansdownes' u20s this season would have been close to their 1st XV packs (and as said earlier, by the end of the year, 4-5 guys from the Trinity u20 pack were starting for the 1sts). With this in mind, how can people justify the argument that a side like Navan would have the wherewithall to bully such teams off the park? You don't suddenly become massive when you become 21! A lot of guys are late developers I know, but a lot of others who played serious rugby at school have pretty much stayed the same size from the age of 18-19 on.

Not for lansdowne - only the leinster academy prop ruarai murphy was a 20's player up front who played for the 1sts, and he did so all season - only played in the latter stages of the mccorry cup for lansdowne - For trinity your right though including a prop friend of mine (who played at least a half for the 20's every week whilst starting for the 1sts) and their american number 8.

The other two were the hooker and the 7. There were a few others in that u20s pack that played games for the 1sts as well...I certainly don't agree that Navan's pack would bully DUFC 1st XV off the park (J1 vs. AIL Div 2) and the u20s pack was not that far off the 1st XV's....don't forget too that Trinity were not the top u20s side in Leinster last season, Lansdowne were...thus debunking the lazy argument that J1 sides would automatically beat u20 sides like Lansdowne and Trinity simply because "they're bigger".

[simonno6]

Theres only one way to solve this cj...

Ill get onto the Leinster branch to arrange a neutral venue - (we dont want cries of 'home advantage' disrupting the process any further in the aftermath of the match)

You get onto Trinity and tell them the pride of 20's rugby is at stake and that their season isnt over yet!

Affluent supporter seems to have a certain affinity with Monkstown FC, so he can ensure their 1st XV turn up knowing full well that the pride of Junior rugby is at stake!

We'll charge 30 euro a ticket, get stuart barnes to hype it up on the rugby club and we will simultaneously put an end to the argument whilst making an absolute fortune!

Sound good?

[cj]

Awesome - see you there!

[groundhog]

Seapoint won the Metro Cup quite comfortably this year, against the pick of Dublins AIL J1 sides. The likes of Navan, Cill Dara, Seapoint etc are made up of players who have played professionally, representative and AIL. Their packs would quite simply scummage and maul any u20 side from one length of the pitch to the other. The u20 back-lines in fairness would compete quite well but I can assure they would see very little of the ball to inflict any damage. Props don't mature till their late 20s early 30s, no 19 year old prop could compete with that.

To be honest if these Trinity or Lansdowne 20s were so special then why did Lansdowne get relegated and Trinity struggle in Division 2.

To be honest what people here fail to realise is that the majoity of players coming out of the schools are not as skilled as they think they are and U20s seems to be an extension of that and a lot of these players are not prepared for adult rugby and just fade away...

[cj]

Seapoint won the Metro Cup quite comfortably this year, against the pick of Dublins AIL J1 sides. The likes of Navan, Cill Dara, Seapoint etc are made up of players who have played professionally, representative and AIL. Their packs would quite simply scummage and maul any u20 side from one length of the pitch to the other. The u20 back-lines in fairness would compete quite well but I can assure they would see very little of the ball to inflict any damage. Props don't mature till their late 20s early 30s, no 19 year old prop could compete with that.

To be honest if these Trinity or Lansdowne 20s were so special then why did Lansdowne get relegated and Trinity struggle in Division 2.

To be honest what people here fail to realise is that the majoity of players coming out of the schools are not as skilled as they think they are and U20s seems to be an extension of that and a lot of these players are not prepared for adult rugby and just fade away...

What, so Cian Healy wouldn't compete against Seapoint's starting front row?! Extremely talented 19 year old front row forwards (which Lansdowne and Trinity possess) may not have reached anywhere near their peak, but they can still match a significantly less talented 28 uear old prop who has reached his peak.

Are you telling me every player in those teams you've named has played professionally or representative? As I know some guys on Seapoint's 1sts and that simply isn't true. You don't have to be that good to have played some AIL rugby, so that argument doesn't carry much weight.

Seapoint are a decent outfit and might or might not beat Trinity's or Lansdowne's u20s. My point was about how cr@p a club Monkstown is, which was in response to an incredibly arrogant and misplaced post by an earlier poster!

[groundhog]

What, so Cian Healy wouldn't compete against Seapoint's starting front row?! Extremely talented 19 year old front row forwards (which Lansdowne and Trinity possess) may not have reached anywhere near their peak, but they can still match a significantly less talented 28 uear old prop who has reached his peak.

I doubt it to be honest if the Lansdowne or Trinty could, Healy is not even an accomplished scrummager and is the exception to the rule. You're hyping up of u20 rugby players is just an extension of the hype surrounding schools rugby and is just endemic of Leinster rugby culture.

As for the representive players, take Cill Dara for example, their front rows have played either AIL and Leinster rep or both, their 2nd rows either Munster rep or AIL or both, Back-row - Irish rep, Leinster rep or AIL or all three. Half-backs, AIL or Leinster rep or both, centres- Tongan Internatational and Aussie International 7s, three-quarters, Leinster rep or AIL or both.

Navan are similarly representative, Seapoint provide a third of the Leinster Junior squad.

and as said earlier, by the end of the year, 4-5 guys from the Trinity u20 pack were starting for the 1sts

Now you were hyping these guys up because they played AIL and now you say you don't have to be that good to play AIL so which is it?

[Dublinner]

Id hate to see the wages bill in Navan and Cill Dara with those line ups.

I completley agree that Navan and Cill Dara would wipe the floor with any of these U20's side. Too much power up front for starters.

[cj]

What, so Cian Healy wouldn't compete against Seapoint's starting front row?! Extremely talented 19 year old front row forwards (which Lansdowne and Trinity possess) may not have reached anywhere near their peak, but they can still match a significantly less talented 28 uear old prop who has reached his peak.

I doubt it to be honest if the Lansdowne or Trinty could, Healy is not even an accomplished scrummager and is the exception to the rule. You're hyping up of u20 rugby players is just an extension of the hype surrounding schools rugby and is just endemic of Leinster rugby culture.

As for the representive players, take Cill Dara for example, their front rows have played either AIL and Leinster rep or both, their 2nd rows either Munster rep or AIL or both, Back-row - Irish rep, Leinster rep or AIL or all three. Half-backs, AIL or Leinster rep or both, centres- Tongan Internatational and Aussie International 7s, three-quarters, Leinster rep or AIL or both.

Navan are similarly representative, Seapoint provide a third of the Leinster Junior squad.

and as said earlier, by the end of the year, 4-5 guys from the Trinity u20 pack were starting for the 1sts

Now you were hyping these guys up because they played AIL and now you say you don't have to be that good to play AIL so which is it?

I'm not attempting to 'hype up' individual players nor u20s rugby in general. Having played it a few years ago and played various levels since then, it is in my opinion a lot stronger than you seem to think. Have you actually watched any of these teams play?

How high a standard is Leinster Juniors? Just a question, before you jump down my throat again!

As for your AIL comments, a little simple logic may answer your question. These guys at Cill Dara etc are playing J1 rugby now, which is a level below AIL Div 3, which is a level below AIL Div 2. Yet in order to back up your argument that they'd eat DUFC/Lansdowne u20s up front, you're bigging up the fact that they used to play AIL. Strange.

[cj]

BTW my q about Leinster Juniors related to the representative team that Cill Dara/Seapoint etc. provide the players for.

[groundhog]

Yet in order to back up your argument that they'd eat DUFC/Lansdowne u20s up front, you're bigging up the fact that they used to play AIL. Strange.

Eh where have I bigged up the AIL, you referred to the observation that half off Trinity's u20s played AIL Div 2 last season, your implication being that they must be good yet later you are quite dismissive of the AIL. As someone who watches youths, schools, mini-rugby, 20s, AIL and Junior rugby I trust my own opinion as regards the merits of a 19 year old, inexperienced and physically under-developed against seasoned rugby players who have probably followed the same route 12 years previous.

What you seem blissfully unaware of is that forward play is LL Division 1 is very strong and on a par with anything in AIL Division 3 and probbaly mid-table downwards in AIL Div 2. Where the top junior teams suffer is in back-play which is generally sterile and very unimaginative but Seapoint helped produce Felix Jones so they must be doing something right. Rugby is a simple game, dominate up front and you will win most games.

As for Leinster Juniors, I'm not a fan to be honest, the rugby is restrictive and boring. There is a certain intensity to it but it's hard to quantify the standard.

And to be honest the only standard that matters outside the professional ranks is AIL Division 1, so if Blackrock or Marys suddenly parachute 4 players into their starting pack mid-way through a season then I might sit up and take notice.

[cj]

Yet in order to back up your argument that they'd eat DUFC/Lansdowne u20s up front, you're bigging up the fact that they used to play AIL. Strange.

Eh where have I bigged up the AIL, you referred to the observation that half off Trinity's u20s played AIL Div 2 last season, your implication being that they must be good yet later you are quite dismissive of the AIL. As someone who watches youths, schools, mini-rugby, 20s, AIL and Junior rugby I trust my own opinion as regards the merits of a 19 year old, inexperienced and physically under-developed against seasoned rugby players who have probably followed the same route 12 years previous.

What you seem blissfully unaware of is that forward play is LL Division 1 is very strong and on a par with anything in AIL Division 3 and probbaly mid-table downwards in AIL Div 2. Where the top junior teams suffer is in back-play which is generally sterile and very unimaginative but Seapoint helped produce Felix Jones so they must be doing something right. Rugby is a simple game, dominate up front and you will win most games.

As for Leinster Juniors, I'm not a fan to be honest, the rugby is restrictive and boring. There is a certain intensity to it but it's hard to quantify the standard.

And to be honest the only standard that matters outside the professional ranks is AIL Division 1, so if Blackrock or Marys suddenly parachute 4 players into their starting pack mid-way through a season then I might sit up and take notice.

You're entitled to your opinions and although I don't agree with many of them, we could be here for a long time if I kept picking up every one of them.

One general point you've made I'd very much disagree with though, is that which I've put in bold above. I've played in many many forward packs down through the years which have been utterly dominant, only to lose by a big score as the opposing backline was so much better than ours. Conversely, I've taken hidings up front only to be rescued by very good backlines, with our team winning by a comfortable margin. So I would disagree that rugby is quite that simple.

One other thing - who's being dismissive of AIL now?

[penfold34]

Some interesting points groundhog, but to be honest after reading the last few pieces i would just like to state that in the last AIL match of the season in a game between Blackrock and Marys 11, under 21's (6 under 20s) played on the Blackrock Team that won that match 43-20 (i think). Also throughout the season 7 different under 20 players featured in the AIL sqaud. At times these players were missing yet as far as i am aware rock won the 20's league beating lans twice. I also watched wanderers a few times and they were impressive for a 2nd division (under 20s) team, i know 2 of them played AIL at the end of the season.

Going back to the origional discussion, i would suggest that you wait until August to make your mind up about a club. THere is no rush. Wait to see where the good players go. For example if you are a 10 wait to see where the good forwards go and a 9 with a good pass in order to make you look better. Or if your a 2nd row, go where there is a good thrower (hooker)to make you look better out of touch.
Dont listen to all the rumours and cr@p that goes with school players coming out of school. One day a player is with one club, the next day he is with another. Wait till players have signed on the dotted line because alot of clubs promise you everything and deliver nothing (all talk).
Any of UCD, Trin rock of lans

[groundhog]

Last comment, I never said you'd win all games, theres is always the exception but given a choice I would take a a team with a dominant pack to win a game over a team with a dazzling backline. Rugby is that simple, madness to argue otherwise.

Penfold, that was a dead rubber game but genuinely good to see. However can you tell me how many Blackrock u20s played in the AIB Cup final?

A team will always be able to bring through 20s players but the arguement was that a team of u20s would beat Monkstown by 40/50 points, something I believe is still quite absurd.

[penfold34]

[quote][/quote]

[Durkah Durkah]

As you can see you are asking in the wrong place for advice. The best bit of honest advice I see is find out where you are living and then find the nearest club. ALMOST everyone here is just going to promote their own club. Check out the websites to the clubs also and see who have A and B U.20 sides. Then see if they give results for both.
Your other problem is that clubs will use there 1st XV coach to advertise for U20s, when they will never be coached by that person. If theer is anyone at home that has links to Dublin clubs use them also.
Don't listen to MOST NOT ALL of the biased advice you read here.

[simonno6]

As you can see you are asking in the wrong place for advice. The best bit of honest advice I see is find out where you are living and then find the nearest club. ALMOST everyone here is just going to promote their own club. Check out the websites to the clubs also and see who have A and B U.20 sides. Then see if they give results for both.
Your other problem is that clubs will use there 1st XV coach to advertise for U20s, when they will never be coached by that person. If theer is anyone at home that has links to Dublin clubs use them also.
Don't listen to MOST NOT ALL of the biased advice you read here.

i know you said ALMOST but the last two pages have just been about who would win a match between a good 20's side and J1 team... no club bias really.