Schools vs Club

[Leinster BULL]

Is the difference between schools and club geting shorter or is schools still ahead

[munster5]

well the u18 youths beat the u18 schools on sunday

[Leinster BULL]

well the u18 youths beat the u18 schools on sunday

Heard that 2 what score

[munster5]

not sure close enough though the youths looked stronger

[Sea_point]

well the u18 youths beat the u18 schools on sunday

Heard that 2 what score

The Irish Youths defeated the Irish Schools 21-15

[Durkah Durkah]

I think you can never compare as there is a uneven favoritism towards the schools. For example there are 2 players on the schools team that played for the youths last year. Obviously they both go to school so they end up on the schools team this year. Neither are in the "traditional" rugby schools so would never have made it but for the youths. So you have a system where the schools are allowed take youthplayers but the youths couldn't take a schools player that has not been selected for the schools. So the selection criteria for the schools is that you must go to school. The selection criteria for the youths is you must play with a club, you cannot be in a Section B or C school, and you cannot have been selected for the schools side. Absolutely ridiculous system and shows what group have the power in both LB and IRFU.

[Buenavista]

Bullshit! Ask any section bcoach and he/she will encourage any player to progress themselves in what ever way possible.. Ie if they get to play for Ireland youths surely they Are progressing as a player and thus will be an asset to the team. Enough of this schools club cr@p... If the club is good enough the player will stay long term if the school us good enough they willdevelop the player long term for the club..one should be complimentary to the other and it can be if done properly..

[Durkah Durkah]

I agree with you that any player should be able to progress in any direction if he/she is good enough. I think you need to read my post again. Let me give you a hypothetical example of what I mean.

Very talented scrum half, attends local school that doesn't offer rugby but he plays for his club. So the schools selectors don't see him. He is selected for the Irish Youths a year young due to his talents. The following year the Youths assume that he will be their starting 9 again but oops the Schools side have selected him because they saw the Youths play the previous year. The next best scrum half in the country doesn't play club rugby but plays for his school side. He doesn't get the opportunity to play international underage rugby as the schools don't need him and the Youths are NOT ALLOWED to select a Section B or C schools player. In fact if the next 15 best scrum halfs were all in a Section B or C school the Youths have to select the next best CLUB player available.

So the school players actually lose out, and the Youth Internationals know that they are viewed as not as important a team as the schools by the powers that be, as some players are cherry picked into the schools side.

The Schools commitee are not interested in development, if they were they would allow the best players that are not selected for the Schools side be available for Youths selection if required.

The sooner they scrap the Schools and Youths and just have an Under 18 A and B representing all players, the fairer it will be and the best for the development of all young players.

[Buenavista]

While I can see your point factually you are incorrect as a player from a section b or c's school can play for club and youths if given permission.. Then it depends on coach and school.. And yes a lot then depends on whether the coach is willing to allow him to play both.. As with any elite player it is the responsibility of the club and schhol to ensure they are exposed to the highest level of rugby possible to develop them. Now let's face facts, schools rugby is of a higher level overall in terms of coaching time spent with player , level of weekly competition etc. If a player finds themselves in the situation you outline above I can guarantee you the majority of those involved in schools rugby would be accomodating and supportive , though admittedly not everybody. Club rugby is vital don't get me wrong as it will be the first rugby experience at mini rugby but also a lifelong experience too asmost will return to their home club after school or college. Howver ask the majority of section b and c school students and they will tell you they want to play with their schhol pals..are clubs putting in enough efforts to coax them back after school? Are they offering a summer rugby experience? Sevens etc. It's a difficult one but it sometimes annoys me when clubs whine and moan about how unfair it is.. The schhols system is good if not excellent.. The clubs system works well at times but it is up tothem to up theirgame first rather than diluting the schools system first

[Durkah Durkah]

I'm not a club whining, I'm a section B schools coach whining. Direct example then: I have a very talented No 8 who trialled for Irish schools but missed out. The youths asked could they select him. I was delighted for him and agreed. The schools committee then informed the youths committee they couldn't have him. Decision was removed from player, coach and schools hands. Sounds fair to me.

[Leinster BULL]

Is it just me or are Club players alot tougher.... Shaggy Ferris Quilan Sean O Brien and Trev ???

[pulldownthemaul]

While I can see your point factually you are incorrect as a player from a section b or c's school can play for club and youths if given permission.. Then it depends on coach and school.. And yes a lot then depends on whether the coach is willing to allow him to play both.. As with any elite player it is the responsibility of the club and schhol to ensure they are exposed to the highest level of rugby possible to develop them. Now let's face facts, schools rugby is of a higher level overall in terms of coaching time spent with player , level of weekly competition etc. If a player finds themselves in the situation you outline above I can guarantee you the majority of those involved in schools rugby would be accomodating and supportive , though admittedly not everybody. Club rugby is vital don't get me wrong as it will be the first rugby experience at mini rugby but also a lifelong experience too asmost will return to their home club after school or college. Howver ask the majority of section b and c school students and they will tell you they want to play with their schhol pals..are clubs putting in enough efforts to coax them back after school? Are they offering a summer rugby experience? Sevens etc. It's a difficult one but it sometimes annoys me when clubs whine and moan about how unfair it is.. The schhols system is good if not excellent.. The clubs system works well at times but it is up tothem to up theirgame first rather than diluting the schools system first

Sorry BUT YOU ARE INCORRECT. "Schoolboys in section B and non-exempt section A schools who play in clubs shall be ineligable to play in the U19, U17 & U15 Leinster Leagues, the Culliton Cup (Leinester U19s), McAuley Cup (U17s) and McGowan Cup (U15s)". This is a direct quote from the Leinster Youths rulebook. Rule 11.1
This leave a player who merely attends a section B or C school (even if he never touches a ball in the school, unable to play copetitive youth rugby. The only exception is to play in the Schools/Youth competition which for 1 is a poorly run and poor standard comp. and then only if the player is not in the 50 man snr. panel or the 35 man jnr. panel.
These are the rules.

[Wasp]

For Rugby to be really successful in Ireland, then it is necessary that the club game is successful and grows ........
It is the only way that the game can reach across the geographical extent of the country to give all talented potential players the opportunity to participate .....

What ticks club people off is that schools often canabalise the youth teams and take the best talents into the schools system.
For example, Lucas Kuntz (Ennis, Co Clare) was in the Munster Youth team last year, he played in the Irish Schools team V Australia (and for Munchins??) this year.
Similarly, J J Hanrahan (Castleisland, Co Kerry) who is potentially an outstanding talent was in the Munster Youth squad at the start of last season despite being U16 and was expected to be a starter on the team. Before the summer was over, he was recruited by Rockwell and played out half in their run to the Senior Cup final. He was also in the Irish Schools team that beat Australia.

The question at the end of the day is, is this a good or bad thing?
In my opinion, it is probably a good thing.
The oppportunity to develop a player is greater in a school than at a club due to the greater time devoted to the sport in the schools system.
This, allied to the GENERALLY better coaches available, should give the player a better opportunity to develop.

The role of the clubs is likely to remain as the drift netters of the sport, catching as many people in their nets as possible so that they get the initial exposure to the game.
Unless the provinces choose to become much more active in the youth game, it is likely that the schools system will serve the role of developing the players to the stage where they are recruited into the academies.

[Durkah Durkah]

Whether you believe that a player moving from club to school is better for him is not my argument. I agree that players would of course benefit from more hours spent out with the ball and naturally that is happens at schools. My argument is ultimately about having the best teams representing Ireland.

We believe that we have the best schools U18 and U19 for the 6 Nations tournaments. In order to achieve this some players that were Youth representatives have now moved to being Schools reprentatives. Fair enough.

The Irish Youths side travels to the FIRA tournament each year. Do we have the best players on the pitch? I would argue not because the pool from which the selection of players is made is vastly smaller than the schools. Why can't the Youths side select from the exact same pool as the schools? There are plenty of players from schools who could make the Youths side, just as there are Youths players that can make the schools side but there is a bias in selection policy. The Youths are prevented from selecting schools players.

That is why I believe that the Youth and Schools sides should be scrapped in favour of an A and B panel.

[Top-of-the-props]

In the total scale of things i believe there cant be a mix on a schools/youths team yet.

i am from a youths background and the treatment the schools get over youths is unbelieveable, without the youths structures players would never get a chance to learn rugby, as currently the schools are getting high quality coaching 4/5 times a week for the age of 13/14? how are clubs lads supposed to compete with this? its impossible

yes its true that youths are getting stronger and its a credit to the coaches in the regional and club scenes, but we have to build on this and expand the youths knowledge of rugby before we can let them compete with places with schools, as currently if two players are the same ability and quality are up for selection the schools player will get the nod.

Its impossible for a good youths player to compete with a player trainhg 5 times a week and being subject to gym programmes at very early ages. and the joining of teams would mean that youths players the possible potential of decent players would lead them to not being selected...

The treatment schools get over youths is gisgraceful and although all provionces have set up lets say "academys" for the u18s u19s etc.. the schools still get preference... its understandiable that clubs lads wont be as devloped as players at 18 years of age but should we not have reps at club games scouting for players with raw talent that can be further devloped to very good players... such as players like sean o brien form tullow! there is plenty of players like him which unlike him slipped threw the nets of reqruitment.


How many times have you saw a rep at a club game?? checking out players and scouting?? very very little... however they go and watch section A a and B schools matches??? any decent youths team would beat
a section A school... this neglect cant be justified? yes the schools matchs are usaally handy for them to go to as they are usually not outside dublin...but is player devlopment not worth a few miles outside the pale??

And whilst on the word of academys for the underage groups (u16 U17 U18 u19 u20) connacht are miles ahead of any other province... they put the players up in houses near the sportsground and traing 5 days a week, give the players gym sessions annd conditioning aswell an skills session and are very proffesional about the whole matter... its is far ahead of any other comparable academy in the other provinces and wont be long until it reaps rewards