****Numbers don't add up****

[Graham204]

Hi Guys,

I’ve been cruising around the IRB website basically procrastinating away from work that I need to do. From looking through the site I noticed some imbalances with the figures for the amount of people registered for rugby in this country the amount of clubs, needless to say the numbers don't add up. I've made a comparison of the numbers compared against some of the largest rugby nations in the World...

Ireland have 152830 registered players and 207 clubs, if i do simple average of players per club it turns out to be 738 players per club rounding down, this is a ridiculous number and surely can't make sense.( or maybe it does???)

I'll give you a comparison to England, Scotland, and Wales, New Zealand... all of which have larger or very similar populations to our own.

England-2146140, clubs 1900, average player per club -1129 (actually this makes less sense than our own figures )

Scotland-32817, clubs 241, average players per clubs-136 (makes allot more sense to me but still seems like there are some massive teams out there )

Wales-46324, clubs 325, players per club average-142 (again some sense, not much)

New Zealand-145293, 562,258

What I think is simply that there are allot of players that are of course registered and have played but don`t play anymore, maybe due to injury, age, giving up etc but the figures stay the same. Is it just that our system indicates players past and present rather than current players and if so why does it, it surely doesn't help our development as a nation if we have the wrong figures to go by...

Sorry for the bit of a ramble, it's called the "babbling" brook I guess,

Let me know your thoughts, I thought it was interesting

[Donny B.]

It is interesting alright Graham, but is probably simply due to players not being deregistered at clubs as active players even when they've long since stopped playing. Part of that is probably administrative laziness but part of it is probably having players on standby in an emergency in case clubs are desperate. I know at my Club, Tallaght RFC, our former captain has been retired for two years, but still stands in for a cameo now and again when needed. If we officially deregistered him, we couldn't field him legitimatly. We're only a small club that's been going for four years yet we've probably got a fair few guys still registered with us who are no longer playing. Now think of a club the size of Shannon or Marys and how many registrations they must still hold.

[Graham204]

It is interesting alright Graham, but is probably simply due to players not being deregistered at clubs as active players even when they've long since stopped playing. Part of that is probably administrative laziness but part of it is probably having players on standby in an emergency in case clubs are desperate. I know at my Club, Tallaght RFC, our former captain has been retired for two years, but still stands in for a cameo now and again when needed. If we officially deregistered him, we couldn't field him legitimatly. We're only a small club that's been going for four years yet we've probably got a fair few guys still registered with us who are no longer playing. Now think of a club the size of Shannon or Marys and how many registrations they must still hold.

Interesting Point Donny

[ronk]

There are huge number of English players who go on a tour or play the odd friendly every couple of years and registered players in case they want to play and so they can apply for international tickets.

There's something similar in some of the clubs here and there are lots of guys who don't play that often but consider themselves players. Most playing panels at lower levels are much larger than the size of the matchday squads.

[Graham204]

There are huge number of English players who go on a tour or play the odd friendly every couple of years and registered players in case they want to play and so they can apply for international tickets.

There's something similar in some of the clubs here and there are lots of guys who don't play that often but consider themselves players. Most playing panels at lower levels are much larger than the size of the matchday squads.

Seems like a good old fashioned scam to me

But another thing on that point, say for example we average 700 or so players registered per squad (maybe even more if it's mostly located to the lower level squads and I do know there are some large clubs out their alright) how can it be possible to have that many people registered with one club if we have 15 starters and 7 replacements. That's like 680 people or so that are registered but don't play only for tickets and to play occasionally. I don't know if it makes sense, it seems that the clubs don't do any spring cleaning when people retire from clubs for whatever reason. It's like a cumulative amount of players over a few generations; I wouldn't be surprised if some of the registered players are deceased.

[ronk]

There are huge number of English players who go on a tour or play the odd friendly every couple of years and registered players in case they want to play and so they can apply for international tickets.

There's something similar in some of the clubs here and there are lots of guys who don't play that often but consider themselves players. Most playing panels at lower levels are much larger than the size of the matchday squads.

Seems like a good old fashioned scam to me

But another thing on that point, say for example we average 700 or so players registered per squad (maybe even more if it's mostly located to the lower level squads and I do know there are some large clubs out their alright) how can it be possible to have that many people registered with one club if we have 15 starters and 7 replacements. That's like 680 people or so that are registered but don't play only for tickets and to play occasionally. I don't know if it makes sense, it seems that the clubs don't do any spring cleaning when people retire from clubs for whatever reason. It's like a cumulative amount of players over a few generations; I wouldn't be surprised if some of the registered players are deceased.

Why the hell would they? You wouldn't last long as a club secretary if you phoned up members who pay on time and play the odd game and threatened to deregister them. So we can collect money and all we give back is including you in the draw for Munster/Ireland tickets, these people are subsidising the game for the guys actually playing.

I'm in a yacht club and it's the same thing. 90% of members only ever use the clubhouse (which makes a profit), they're paying for all the other facilities and ensuring that the club is not too busy by not using them. Their subscription is most welcome (and usually on time).

[Graham204]

There are huge number of English players who go on a tour or play the odd friendly every couple of years and registered players in case they want to play and so they can apply for international tickets.

There's something similar in some of the clubs here and there are lots of guys who don't play that often but consider themselves players. Most playing panels at lower levels are much larger than the size of the matchday squads.

Seems like a good old fashioned scam to me

But another thing on that point, say for example we average 700 or so players registered per squad (maybe even more if it's mostly located to the lower level squads and I do know there are some large clubs out their alright) how can it be possible to have that many people registered with one club if we have 15 starters and 7 replacements. That's like 680 people or so that are registered but don't play only for tickets and to play occasionally. I don't know if it makes sense, it seems that the clubs don't do any spring cleaning when people retire from clubs for whatever reason. It's like a cumulative amount of players over a few generations; I wouldn't be surprised if some of the registered players are deceased.

Why the hell would they? You wouldn't last long as a club secretary if you phoned up members who pay on time and play the odd game and threatened to deregister them. So we can collect money and all we give back is including you in the draw for Munster/Ireland tickets, these people are subsidising the game for the guys actually playing.

I'm in a yacht club and it's the same thing. 90% of members only ever use the clubhouse (which makes a profit), they're paying for all the other facilities and ensuring that the club is not too busy by not using them. Their subscription is most welcome (and usually on time).

So you register 600 people as players to take their subs to support the club? don't Patrons support the clubs and are allocated tickets for their support? Plus it's completely different to be a member of a club in support rather than be a registered rugby player plus I'm pretty sure most clubs in Ireland don't have 600 people waiting in the wings to play the odd game. Can you honestly say that these numbers from the IRB official website add up and make sense?

[Helium54]

These figures do add up, as they are not just adult players. Obviously there aren't a hundred thousand players playing adult rugby, but if you take all the kids who would be registerd in mini rugby, underage club rugby and school rugby you would be talking serious numbers. When you add onto that all the adults who would be registered a year or two after they finish playing it seems fair enough, or the lads who sign up for a club at the start of season and then call it quits, then it all makes sense.

The IRB even provide such a breakdown, there are 60k pre-teen males and 7k females registered, with a further 57k and 3k teen male and female players registered, whilst there are only 22k and 2k male and female adults registered.

http://www.irb.com/unions/union=11000001/index.html

So, no conspiracy theory. If you want to guess why the ratio figures are higher in Ireland, it is probably due to the kids in schools who are registered to play but are not affiliated with any clubs. We are still under-resourced in terms of clubs in this country relative to the playing population.

In conclusion, for adult rugby you are looking at each club having an average of about a hundred adult players. Is that, that unrealistic?

[Sea_point]

The issue is largely players insurance, if you're someone who only wants an occasional run you need to be registered as a player to be covered by the clubs policy (well in my club anyway) so you end up with lots of guys on the books who aren't going to change clubs and might only play every couple of months or years but who for the sake of being covered by the clubs insurance when they do play are left on the register of players...

When you look at the lowest sides in a lot of clubs they may use of to 60 different occasional players over a season.....

With regards to the number you have to look at the adult male figure really and not the total figure as that includes primary and post primary schools players as well as juvenile club players....

Number Of Clubs: 207
Number Of Registered Players: 152830
Number of Referees: 420
Pre-teen Male Players: 60600
Pre-teen Female Player: 7100
Teen Male Player: 57700
Teen Female Player: 3000
Senior Male Player: 21939
Senior Female Player: 2491
Total Male Player: 140239
Total Female Player: 12591

[Graham204]

These figures do add up, as they are not just adult players. Obviously there aren't a hundred thousand players playing adult rugby, but if you take all the kids who would be registerd in mini rugby, underage club rugby and school rugby you would be talking serious numbers. When you add onto that all the adults who would be registered a year or two after they finish playing it seems fair enough, or the lads who sign up for a club at the start of season and then call it quits, then it all makes sense.

The IRB even provide such a breakdown, there are 60k pre-teen males and 7k females registered, with a further 57k and 3k teen male and female players registered, whilst there are only 22k and 2k male and female adults registered.

http://www.irb.com/unions/union=11000001/index.html

So, no conspiracy theory. If you want to guess why the ratio figures are higher in Ireland, it is probably due to the kids in schools who are registered to play but are not affiliated with any clubs. We are still under-resourced in terms of clubs in this country relative to the playing population.

In conclusion, for adult rugby you are looking at each club having an average of about a hundred adult players. Is that, that unrealistic?

That's more of a creditable answer, good man, don't think anyone said "conspiracy theory" though, that's your assumption, this is simply trying to understand the facts. good answer less the sarcasm. Could be a good idea for the IRB to list the number of teams( pre teen,teen,adult both male and female) to get a better understanding of the break down rather than just saying 207 clubs. If the registered players are broke down maybe the category of team should be too.

[Leinster BULL]

School players are probably registered

[ronk]

[

So you register 600 people as players to take their subs to support the club? don't Patrons support the clubs and are allocated tickets for their support? Plus it's completely different to be a member of a club in support rather than be a registered rugby player plus I'm pretty sure most clubs in Ireland don't have 600 people waiting in the wings to play the odd game. Can you honestly say that these numbers from the IRB official website add up and make sense?

Actually, it's not unknown for clubs to field additional teams when the cup comes around because players are available for a few matches at the end of the season (when everyone is thinking about the 6N and in a rugby buzz) but wouldn't have the time for the weekly grind of training and matches.

You see a lot of guys who are semi-retired (or taking a year off) due to commitments like kids, getting married, moving and being away from the club etc. who are coaxed into playing a few matches.

[silly punt]

Just checked the figures for my club, we have 628 players of all ages registered & we are by no means a big club. The problem with the player-reg system is you cannot delete or edit players after they have been registered. This is what is distorting the figure, there are a lot of players registered who do not play anymore, both adult & child.

[Sea_point]

These figures do add up, as they are not just adult players. Obviously there aren't a hundred thousand players playing adult rugby, but if you take all the kids who would be registerd in mini rugby, underage club rugby and school rugby you would be talking serious numbers. When you add onto that all the adults who would be registered a year or two after they finish playing it seems fair enough, or the lads who sign up for a club at the start of season and then call it quits, then it all makes sense.

The IRB even provide such a breakdown, there are 60k pre-teen males and 7k females registered, with a further 57k and 3k teen male and female players registered, whilst there are only 22k and 2k male and female adults registered.

http://www.irb.com/unions/union=11000001/index.html

So, no conspiracy theory. If you want to guess why the ratio figures are higher in Ireland, it is probably due to the kids in schools who are registered to play but are not affiliated with any clubs. We are still under-resourced in terms of clubs in this country relative to the playing population.

In conclusion, for adult rugby you are looking at each club having an average of about a hundred adult players. Is that, that unrealistic?

That's more of a creditable answer, good man, don't think anyone said "conspiracy theory" though, that's your assumption, this is simply trying to understand the facts. good answer less the sarcasm. Could be a good idea for the IRB to list the number of teams( pre teen,teen,adult both male and female) to get a better understanding of the break down rather than just saying 207 clubs. If the registered players are broke down maybe the category of team should be too.

It's not really a detailed analysis on the IRB site, the IRFU should be able to provide more detailed info (they usually quote stats in their annual report as below).

click image for full size

It's just quickfacts so you can make a rough comparison of the realtive popularity of the game in each country by using them.

If you look at Ireland & say Japan, Japan with a population of roughly 128 million has more than ten times the number of clubs and over twice the number of adult male players yet Ireland has about 16,000 more Teen Male players than them and nearly three times as many pre-teen male players which is probably indicitve of our ability to produce more and better top class players down the chain...

Japan in Numbers
Number Of Clubs: 3620
Number Of Registered Players: 122598
Number of Referees: 4484
Pre-teen Male Players: 27010
Pre-teen Female Player: 450
Teen Male Player: 41532
Teen Female Player: 190
Senior Male Player: 53001
Senior Female Player: 415
Total Male Player: 121543
Total Female Player: 1055

[Graham204]

Just checked the figures for my club, we have 628 players of all ages registered & we are by no means a big club. The problem with the player-reg system is you cannot delete or edit players after they have been registered. This is what is distorting the figure, there are a lot of players registered who do not play anymore, both adult & child.

2nd that!

[Graham204]

It's just quickfacts so you can make a rough comparison of the realtive popularity of the game in each country by using them.

I see, so I guess if the figures grow exponentially over the years it indicates the popularity increase of the game which is what it's mostly for, so it basically does it job considering all nations figures are probably wrong due to their not being a mechanism to unregister players that don't play anymore, I would have thought not paying subs would have automatically done that though? Anyway do you think that the idea of the stats is to purely show the increase in interest in the game or do you think there are other uses for it too?