And given that Ireland have the worst record of any team apart from Italy in the 6 Nations
Being pedantic, how do you work that out? Unless you're talking mainly about the 5N?
Ireland's main problem in the past has been the link between schools and the international side. Far too much emphasise was placed on picking older players who had done their service for their club and were now experienced. As a result many promising school stars either quit or didn't develop due to lack of interest/not being picked for their club side (again because they weren't old enough).
Now we have a system where the stars come out and straight into a clear career path. Which is why, since 2000, only France have won more 6N matches than Ireland. Fine you can look at actual trophies but it's hardly like we're finding it hard to win individual matches where before we had serious problems.
My criticism of the sytem is:
1. results - Ireland have won less Championships and less grand slams than any of the original 5 nations.
2. Player numbers - Japan has twice as many senior players as we do. In order to create depth we need to drive player numbers.
I think your point is a good one on the academy taking players from school. But is that because of or despite the schools? Maybe if we could get the high performers/high potential guys into the academy earlier - maybe even at 12/13 - they benefit more from elite coaching from world clas coaches. They would also be guided on diet and protected from excessive contact/body bulk etc.
Maybe if we could get the high performers/high potential guys into the academy earlier - maybe even at 12/13 - they benefit more from elite coaching from world clas coaches. They would also be guided on diet and protected from excessive contact/body bulk etc.
I think that's too early but plenty of senior cup players come out with as good a diet, bulk and professionalism as the pros. Fitz being a prime example. Schools rugby training has always been close to professional at the top schools and the problem was that before the academy they were thrown into an amateur setup which was miles removed from what they were used to (and they were down at the bottom of the pile).
What we have now certainly serves to get the best out of our pool of players. Very few potential stars get missed and any who want to make it can quite easily.
Not sure why you mention Japan. Having a population 25 times greater than ours shows that their percentage of rugby players is well below us. And having loads of adult rugby players doesn't mean that you're going to be any good. Just look at England!
Maybe if we could get the high performers/high potential guys into the academy earlier - maybe even at 12/13 - they benefit more from elite coaching from world clas coaches. They would also be guided on diet and protected from excessive contact/body bulk etc.
I think that's too early but plenty of senior cup players come out with as good a diet, bulk and professionalism as the pros. Fitz being a prime example. Schools rugby training has always been close to professional at the top schools and the problem was that before the academy they were thrown into an amateur setup which was miles removed from what they were used to (and they were down at the bottom of the pile).
What we have now certainly serves to get the best out of our pool of players. Very few potential stars get missed and any who want to make it can quite easily.
Not sure why you mention Japan. Having a population 25 times greater than ours shows that their percentage of rugby players is well below us. And having loads of adult rugby players doesn't mean that you're going to be any good. Just look at England!
I think your point is absolutely right CM....if you go to Rock. But what if you go to Andrews, Wesley, St.Conleths or New Park. You may be as good at 13 as your Rock counterpart, but you won't be when you're 18. Here coaching is amateur - it was fockin diabolical when i went to school. And diets etc just don't exist.
Mentioned Japan because rugby is nowhere on the national sporting radar. If you want to do it by percentage of population, Wales might be a good benchmark - they have slightly more players than us in a much smaller population. Either way, getting more kids playing rugby and ensuring they go through to CLub/province is the end objective I guess.
Maybe if we could get the high performers/high potential guys into the academy earlier - maybe even at 12/13 - they benefit more from elite coaching from world clas coaches. They would also be guided on diet and protected from excessive contact/body bulk etc.
I think that's too early but plenty of senior cup players come out with as good a diet, bulk and professionalism as the pros. Fitz being a prime example. Schools rugby training has always been close to professional at the top schools and the problem was that before the academy they were thrown into an amateur setup which was miles removed from what they were used to (and they were down at the bottom of the pile).
What we have now certainly serves to get the best out of our pool of players. Very few potential stars get missed and any who want to make it can quite easily.
Not sure why you mention Japan. Having a population 25 times greater than ours shows that their percentage of rugby players is well below us. And having loads of adult rugby players doesn't mean that you're going to be any good. Just look at England!
I think your point is absolutely right CM....if you go to Rock. But what if you go to Andrews, Wesley, St.Conleths or New Park. You may be as good at 13 as your Rock counterpart, but you won't be when you're 18. Here coaching is amateur - it was fockin diabolical when i went to school. And diets etc just don't exist.
Mentioned Japan because rugby is nowhere on the national sporting radar. If you want to do it by percentage of population, Wales might be a good benchmark - they have slightly more players than us in a much smaller population. Either way, getting more kids playing rugby and ensuring they go through to CLub/province is the end objective I guess.
That's not Rock's fault!!
Its up to the other schools to play catch up and follow on the Rock template. If they want success on the pitch, they have to provide facilities and training etc to give their pupils all the chance of getting that 13 jersey off the rock player, when it comes to Irl under age and onwards.
Not always possible financially, but there are ways and means.
CM wrote:
I think that's too early but plenty of senior cup players come out with as good a diet, bulk and professionalism as the pros. Fitz being a prime example. Schools rugby training has always been close to professional at the top schools and the problem was that before the academy they were thrown into an amateur setup which was miles removed from what they were used to (and they were down at the bottom of the pile).
What we have now certainly serves to get the best out of our pool of players. Very few potential stars get missed and any who want to make it can quite easily.
Not sure why you mention Japan. Having a population 25 times greater than ours shows that their percentage of rugby players is well below us. And having loads of adult rugby players doesn't mean that you're going to be any good. Just look at England!
I think your point is absolutely right CM....if you go to Rock. But what if you go to Andrews, Wesley, St.Conleths or New Park. You may be as good at 13 as your Rock counterpart, but you won't be when you're 18. Here coaching is amateur - it was fockin diabolical when i went to school. And diets etc just don't exist.
Mentioned Japan because rugby is nowhere on the national sporting radar. If you want to do it by percentage of population, Wales might be a good benchmark - they have slightly more players than us in a much smaller population. Either way, getting more kids playing rugby and ensuring they go through to CLub/province is the end objective I guess.
That's not Rock's fault!!
Its up to the other schools to play catch up and follow on the Rock template. If they want success on the pitch, they have to provide facilities and training etc to give their pupils all the chance of getting that 13 jersey off the rock player, when it comes to Irl under age and onwards.
Not always possible financially, but there are ways and means.
I don't think that using Fitz as an example is good either - after all he comes from a family with predigree - what we need is as many young players coming through as possible from all parts of Leinster (and Ireland) regardless of background and shcool.
And England is not a good example either - they may have 000s of amateur players but when it comes to the professional game the number of England qualified players is very low - possibly as low as contracted players here truth to tell - look at the lack of a decent outhalf - and that's in a league with 12 teams - so theory there should be about 36 professional England qualified outhalves.
"I don't think Edinburgh is the place it used to be"
And England is not a good example either - they may have 000s of amateur players but when it comes to the professional game the number of England qualified players is very low - possibly as low as contracted players here truth to tell - look at the lack of a decent outhalf - and that's in a league with 12 teams - so theory there should be about 36 professional England qualified outhalves.
That's my point. Flash was talking about getting more people playing (i.e. amateur numbers up) and I was pointing out that numbers mean nothing, it's the structures that count and in that respect we're hardly doing that badly. People keep on going on about this being a once in a lifetime Irish team that hasn't acheived but I fail to see how it's a once in a lifetime team. There's new BOD's and POC's coming through and even if you say that we don't have any truly world class players coming through in that mold we definitely have a full team of young international standard players.
I don't think that using Fitz as an example is good either - after all he comes from a family with predigree
Maybe a poor example but more and more players are coming out of school ready for provincial rugby.
If you want to do it by percentage of population, Wales might be a good benchmark - they have slightly more players than us in a much smaller population.
And rugby is their main sport. Here rugby is 4th in line so being anywhere close to Wales is good.
Anyway, this conversation seems to have gone on on the other thread despite the mods best efforts! Might see you over there!
bluesky wrote:The UCD "bowl", would be an ideal location for Schools matches alongside Stradbroook, Lakelands and Anglesea road at a push. Just have the Final in Donnybrook.
FYI,
The Bowl is being redeveloped this spring with seating for 1,500 and standing for another 3,000.
