Havent had one of these for a while...

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Havent had one of these for a while...

Post by Slipper1 »

Lets start a schools rugby debate... :twisted:
Lord Gezza of the Irish Times wrote:
Physical chasm a cause for concern

Gerry Thornley On Rugby: Hasn't it been extraordinary how the fizz just went out of Irish rugby so suddenly this season? A salient warning, perhaps, as to what the future might hold.

There's still plenty around to fill the Heineken European Cup post quarter-final void; be it the climax to the Magners Celtic League, the AIB League or, with that warning in mind, the recently completed IRB Under-19 World Championship in Ulster.

By being on our own doorstep, the tournament has at least sparked some debate which, you hope, has reached 62 Lansdowne Road and beyond. Ireland weren't alone in struggling against the southern hemisphere "Big Three", whose only defeat in 11 matches against other teams was France's 17-8 win over South Africa, and much of the debate has centred on that physical chasm.

Yet as striking was the gulf in skills. Ireland did not lack for possession against Australia, indeed the Baby Blacks were smaller than the gargantuan Baby Boks but destroyed them in the final with their handling skills, awareness, pace and eye for the tryline.

Charlie McAleese, the coach of the Ireland Under-19s, isn't the first under-age coach to feel utter frustration with a system in which the fiefdom that is the schools' lobby enjoys near untouchable status within the Irish under-age structure. As he told this newspaper on Saturday, "the be-all and end-all of protecting and ring-fencing the schools cup just does not prepare players to improve as quickly as we need them to improve in terms of conditioning, skills and game appreciation."

By far the least relevant under-age results, especially in the longer term, are those achieved by the Irish Schools and a far more meaningful yardstick has been the annual Under-19 tournament. There must also be many a club coach, from mini-rugby up, or provincial coach who winces every time he is reminded that supposedly around 85 per cent of Irish internationals are produced by the schools. No, they happen to pass through the schools, understandably if you think of the sport's socio-economic base, and that they ultimately become internationals can be as much in spite of, rather than because of, the schools.

There are many pluses to the schools game generally and their parochial, provincial competitions, such as the health, discipline and camaraderie it produces, but the emphasis (unique in global rugby) on knock-out cups is not conducive to either coaches or players developing skills.

Introducing qualifying leagues for the cups has only heightened the need for winning from September or October onwards. By right there should be no junior cup at all, with leagues, encompassing a points system to encourage try-scoring, running all the way through to - for the sake of tradition - one senior cup.

It is also a nonsense that the IRFU schools committee selects coaches for the Irish schools side. Not alone is this dangerously political, it has also seen the committee go outside the union's own accredited coaches. Furthermore, at least three of the leading rugby schools in Leinster are employing coaches from outside the IRFU's coaching system.

Increasingly, schools coaches are being paid and risk dismissal unless they deliver trophies.

Ironically, though the schools retain first call on players over clubs, even those clubs who introduced the player to the game, the IRFU are far more effective in ensuring the clubs use union-accredited coaches than the schools. Go figure.

It surely is no co-incidence that the best under-age performance of any Irish side in recent years - the recent Under-20 Grand Slam - followed nine months of conditioning and training for the majority of those players in the provincial academies, mostly Leinster's under Colin McEntee. The under-20s were also coached by Eric Elwood and Dan McFarland - IRFU-accredited coaches.

In the Under-19 World Championship the way the Welsh team sought to keep the ball alive and attack space bore echoes of, say, Mike Ruddock and Scott Johnson's Welsh Grand Slam team of two long years ago or the current Llanelli Scarlets. In number eight Sam Warburton and halfbacks Rhys Webb and Gareth Owen and others, they look to have some true stars of the future.

None of this is a coincidence. "This is an issue we addressed a number of years ago," admitted the Welsh CEO Roger Lewis yesterday. "We have established very good relationships with schools. We identify elite players in the schools from beyond 16, have complete access to them and introduce them to the regional academies."

"Critically, the four academies and their coaches are all employed by the Welsh RFU," adds Lewis. "Our under-19s under Justin Burnell play a style of game that we've adopted in Wales, which is an expansive, high tempo ball in hand game and each players' progress is monitored centrally by our High Performance Unit."

To that end, the Welsh HPU met yesterday and have identified five players in their under-19 squad they believe can progress to the top of the game, which would be a good return and is the true measure of success at this level.

Unless the schools game here starts adhering to the union's own long-term playing model, and begins employing IRFU-accredited coaches within the provincial set-ups and changes its competitive structures, then it will behove someone or people with vision in the IRFU to follow the example of the Welsh.

The priority of the schools game should not be whether boys from under-14 up wins trophies, or how much money it makes, how many Triple Crowns Irish schools sides win or how many adults bask in the glow of these victories, but instead how many continue playing the game and how their talent has been maximised.

As things stand, in one of the supreme ironies, it seems the schools game is now being run more for the benefit of adults than the participants.
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Post by Grumpy Old Man »

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Re: Havent had one of these for a while...

Post by beanie »

Slipper1 wrote:Lets start a schools rugby debate... :twisted:
Lord Gezza of the Irish Times wrote:
Physical chasm a cause for concern

Gerry Thornley On Rugby: Hasn't it been extraordinary how the fizz just went out of Irish rugby so suddenly this season? A salient warning, perhaps, as to what the future might hold.

There's still plenty around to fill the Heineken European Cup post quarter-final void; be it the climax to the Magners Celtic League, the AIB League or, with that warning in mind, the recently completed IRB Under-19 World Championship in Ulster.

By being on our own doorstep, the tournament has at least sparked some debate which, you hope, has reached 62 Lansdowne Road and beyond. Ireland weren't alone in struggling against the southern hemisphere "Big Three", whose only defeat in 11 matches against other teams was France's 17-8 win over South Africa, and much of the debate has centred on that physical chasm.

Yet as striking was the gulf in skills. Ireland did not lack for possession against Australia, indeed the Baby Blacks were smaller than the gargantuan Baby Boks but destroyed them in the final with their handling skills, awareness, pace and eye for the tryline.

Charlie McAleese, the coach of the Ireland Under-19s, isn't the first under-age coach to feel utter frustration with a system in which the fiefdom that is the schools' lobby enjoys near untouchable status within the Irish under-age structure. As he told this newspaper on Saturday, "the be-all and end-all of protecting and ring-fencing the schools cup just does not prepare players to improve as quickly as we need them to improve in terms of conditioning, skills and game appreciation."

By far the least relevant under-age results, especially in the longer term, are those achieved by the Irish Schools and a far more meaningful yardstick has been the annual Under-19 tournament. There must also be many a club coach, from mini-rugby up, or provincial coach who winces every time he is reminded that supposedly around 85 per cent of Irish internationals are produced by the schools. No, they happen to pass through the schools, understandably if you think of the sport's socio-economic base, and that they ultimately become internationals can be as much in spite of, rather than because of, the schools.

There are many pluses to the schools game generally and their parochial, provincial competitions, such as the health, discipline and camaraderie it produces, but the emphasis (unique in global rugby) on knock-out cups is not conducive to either coaches or players developing skills.

Introducing qualifying leagues for the cups has only heightened the need for winning from September or October onwards. By right there should be no junior cup at all, with leagues, encompassing a points system to encourage try-scoring, running all the way through to - for the sake of tradition - one senior cup.

It is also a nonsense that the IRFU schools committee selects coaches for the Irish schools side. Not alone is this dangerously political, it has also seen the committee go outside the union's own accredited coaches. Furthermore, at least three of the leading rugby schools in Leinster are employing coaches from outside the IRFU's coaching system.

Increasingly, schools coaches are being paid and risk dismissal unless they deliver trophies.

Ironically, though the schools retain first call on players over clubs, even those clubs who introduced the player to the game, the IRFU are far more effective in ensuring the clubs use union-accredited coaches than the schools. Go figure.

It surely is no co-incidence that the best under-age performance of any Irish side in recent years - the recent Under-20 Grand Slam - followed nine months of conditioning and training for the majority of those players in the provincial academies, mostly Leinster's under Colin McEntee. The under-20s were also coached by Eric Elwood and Dan McFarland - IRFU-accredited coaches.

In the Under-19 World Championship the way the Welsh team sought to keep the ball alive and attack space bore echoes of, say, Mike Ruddock and Scott Johnson's Welsh Grand Slam team of two long years ago or the current Llanelli Scarlets. In number eight Sam Warburton and halfbacks Rhys Webb and Gareth Owen and others, they look to have some true stars of the future.

None of this is a coincidence. "This is an issue we addressed a number of years ago," admitted the Welsh CEO Roger Lewis yesterday. "We have established very good relationships with schools. We identify elite players in the schools from beyond 16, have complete access to them and introduce them to the regional academies."

"Critically, the four academies and their coaches are all employed by the Welsh RFU," adds Lewis. "Our under-19s under Justin Burnell play a style of game that we've adopted in Wales, which is an expansive, high tempo ball in hand game and each players' progress is monitored centrally by our High Performance Unit."

To that end, the Welsh HPU met yesterday and have identified five players in their under-19 squad they believe can progress to the top of the game, which would be a good return and is the true measure of success at this level.

Unless the schools game here starts adhering to the union's own long-term playing model, and begins employing IRFU-accredited coaches within the provincial set-ups and changes its competitive structures, then it will behove someone or people with vision in the IRFU to follow the example of the Welsh.

The priority of the schools game should not be whether boys from under-14 up wins trophies, or how much money it makes, how many Triple Crowns Irish schools sides win or how many adults bask in the glow of these victories, but instead how many continue playing the game and how their talent has been maximised.

As things stand, in one of the supreme ironies, it seems the schools game is now being run more for the benefit of adults than the participants.


i have to agree with GT, i played SCT rugby and it doesnt make any sense to play 'friendlies' all season and then start the cup in february.

i think a super 14 type system applies whereby at the end of the league the top 4 play off for the 'championship' the middle schools play off for the plate and the bottom ranked schools play off for the bowl etc. (that way there is always something to play for)

while this is how i think it should work i dont think the lesser schools would buy into it as im sure they would feel they would just be the whipping boys for the bigger schools.

either way something has to change
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Post by Slipper1 »

...and we are off; Flash, Duff, U.Mort - any of you like to take up the baton...
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Post by Flash Gordon »

Slipper1 wrote:...and we are off; Flash, Duff, U.Mort - any of you like to take up the baton...
:lol: :lol: :lol: I read the article and thought it was interesting.

Looking at the under 19's a couple of things struck me:

1. Skills - as GT says
2. Size - sorry, but a 22 stone prop. :shock: Won't comment further as I don't want to get anyone in trouble
3. Timing - its kind of a ridiculous to play a world cup at this time of year. The coaches were talking about kids going to the tournament with their school books. Luke's parents saw sense last year and wouldn't let him play. The majority of these kids won't make it, that's the reality, throwing your exams at this stage is probably wrong.

So how to address the issues?
1. Skills - coaching. The IRFU have pretty good skills coaching early on.....partially. OVer the first few weeks, kids aren't allowed to play matches - they just do skills initially. However, I coach at one of the bigger clubs and during the course of the year at all levels from under 6 to under 11, we didn't have any visiting coaches from the IRFU or Leinster. And to be perfectly honest, towards the end of the year we running out of ideas.

Not sure about the schools. But I do think that the best schools players should be getting academy coaching session - meeting regularly for skills coaching as the go thorugh school - maybe during summers.

2. Size - I wouldn't go near this to be honest. I remember playing soccer to a pretty high level (European Cup winners cup) and being told when I was 17/18 that I shouldn't be doing weights. Now its a while ago admittedly but bulking up muscle on undeveloped bones doesn't strike me as something that will result in long term benefit....

3. Timing - this affects the entire nothern hemsphere. Strikes me this needs to be looked at......
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Post by FatBoyChoice »

I agree with most of what Thornley is saying here.

It kind of off topic but I do think the schools system has one huge advantage in that it offers these guys a good education and something to fall back on should their rugby careers faulter or they pick up serious injury etc. A lot of the NZ guys are more or less pro's from 15/16 on and if they don't make a good career out if it they have no plan B.
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Post by Uncle Mort »

It's exactly what I've been saying for years - the schools cup can not produce players for the long term. I've been pretty much a lone voice (not entirely but pretty much) so far but it's good to have GT on my side. The only way to produce sufficient good quality players, where all members of the playing community get a fair chance is to base development on the club structure and play competitve age grade rugby based on district, county and province. The SCT serves the needs of the old boys and no-one else.
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Post by Duff Paddy »

Uncle Mort wrote:It's exactly what I've been saying for years - the schools cup can not produce players for the long term
Yes as I prepare to go to the Leinster match this evening, it is deeply concerning that of the starting XV, just 10 of them came through the Irish schools rugby system - a system that "cannot produce players for the long term". As the Kiwis have clearly also found out to their peril:


http://forum.planet-rugby.com/index.php ... 24326d9225
College sport:
Champions sure to feel pressure from word go

5:00AM Wednesday May 02, 2007
By Terry Maddaford

The pressure will be on Auckland Grammar when they take the short walk to play St Peters in the opening round of the Auckland secondary schools rugby championship on Saturday.

The start of major sports in the winter programme will add real interest to what promises to be a busy second term.

AGS, the defending champions, will be under some pressure as they have a much-changed side from the team who beat Kings in last year's final, with many of their senior players no longer at the school. St Peters too have a new-look team in the 12-team 1A championship.

Given these changes, De La Salle, on the back of some strong pre-season games, Mt Albert Grammar and Tamaki College are likely to be the early front-runners.

MAGS have a home game against Sacred Heart to kick-off their season while De La Salle are at home to Tangaroa College, who have yet to show their hand in a quiet pre-season.

Kings too have shown little in the build-up to the new season and face a testing away clash with Tamaki College first-up.


Promoted Papatoetoe High have a home game with St Pauls to open their 1A campaign while Kelston BHS meet St Kentigern in the other first round clash.

North Harbour champions Westlake BHS opened the defence of their title with a 24-8 win over Rangitoto College and are away to Orewa this week.

Rosmini, thumped 76-8 in last year's final, opened their season with a 34-6 win over Orewa and are away to Massey this week.

The Counties Manukau competition begins with two rounds of pre-season friendlies with the season proper starting on May 19.
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Post by Uncle Mort »

All I suggest you do is read what GT said - I've highlighted some bits for you to consider:
GT wrote: Physical chasm a cause for concern

Gerry Thornley On Rugby: Hasn't it been extraordinary how the fizz just went out of Irish rugby so suddenly this season? A salient warning, perhaps, as to what the future might hold.

There's still plenty around to fill the Heineken European Cup post quarter-final void; be it the climax to the Magners Celtic League, the AIB League or, with that warning in mind, the recently completed IRB Under-19 World Championship in Ulster.

By being on our own doorstep, the tournament has at least sparked some debate which, you hope, has reached 62 Lansdowne Road and beyond. Ireland weren't alone in struggling against the southern hemisphere "Big Three", whose only defeat in 11 matches against other teams was France's 17-8 win over South Africa, and much of the debate has centred on that physical chasm.

Yet as striking was the gulf in skills. Ireland did not lack for possession against Australia, indeed the Baby Blacks were smaller than the gargantuan Baby Boks but destroyed them in the final with their handling skills, awareness, pace and eye for the tryline.

Charlie McAleese, the coach of the Ireland Under-19s, isn't the first under-age coach to feel utter frustration with a system in which the fiefdom that is the schools' lobby enjoys near untouchable status within the Irish under-age structure. As he told this newspaper on Saturday, "the be-all and end-all of protecting and ring-fencing the schools cup just does not prepare players to improve as quickly as we need them to improve in terms of conditioning, skills and game appreciation."

By far the least relevant under-age results, especially in the longer term, are those achieved by the Irish Schools and a far more meaningful yardstick has been the annual Under-19 tournament.

There must also be many a club coach, from mini-rugby up, or provincial coach who winces every time he is reminded that supposedly around 85 per cent of Irish internationals are produced by the schools. No, they happen to pass through the schools, understandably if you think of the sport's socio-economic base, and that they ultimately become internationals can be as much in spite of, rather than because of, the schools.

There are many pluses to the schools game generally and their parochial, provincial competitions, such as the health, discipline and camaraderie it produces, but the emphasis (unique in global rugby) on knock-out cups is not conducive to either coaches or players developing skills.

Introducing qualifying leagues for the cups has only heightened the need for winning from September or October onwards. By right there should be no junior cup at all, with leagues, encompassing a points system to encourage try-scoring, running all the way through to - for the sake of tradition - one senior cup.

It is also a nonsense that the IRFU schools committee selects coaches for the Irish schools side. Not alone is this dangerously political, it has also seen the committee go outside the union's own accredited coaches. Furthermore, at least three of the leading rugby schools in Leinster are employing coaches from outside the IRFU's coaching system.

Increasingly, schools coaches are being paid and risk dismissal unless they deliver trophies.

Ironically, though the schools retain first call on players over clubs, even those clubs who introduced the player to the game, the IRFU are far more effective in ensuring the clubs use union-accredited coaches than the schools. Go figure.

It surely is no co-incidence that the best under-age performance of any Irish side in recent years - the recent Under-20 Grand Slam - followed nine months of conditioning and training for the majority of those players in the provincial academies, mostly Leinster's under Colin McEntee. The under-20s were also coached by Eric Elwood and Dan McFarland - IRFU-accredited coaches.

In the Under-19 World Championship the way the Welsh team sought to keep the ball alive and attack space bore echoes of, say, Mike Ruddock and Scott Johnson's Welsh Grand Slam team of two long years ago or the current Llanelli Scarlets. In number eight Sam Warburton and halfbacks Rhys Webb and Gareth Owen and others, they look to have some true stars of the future.

None of this is a coincidence. "This is an issue we addressed a number of years ago," admitted the Welsh CEO Roger Lewis yesterday. "We have established very good relationships with schools. We identify elite players in the schools from beyond 16, have complete access to them and introduce them to the regional academies."

"Critically, the four academies and their coaches are all employed by the Welsh RFU," adds Lewis. "Our under-19s under Justin Burnell play a style of game that we've adopted in Wales, which is an expansive, high tempo ball in hand game and each players' progress is monitored centrally by our High Performance Unit."

To that end, the Welsh HPU met yesterday and have identified five players in their under-19 squad they believe can progress to the top of the game, which would be a good return and is the true measure of success at this level.

Unless the schools game here starts adhering to the union's own long-term playing model, and begins employing IRFU-accredited coaches within the provincial set-ups and changes its competitive structures, then it will behove someone or people with vision in the IRFU to follow the example of the Welsh.

The priority of the schools game should not be whether boys from under-14 up wins trophies, or how much money it makes, how many Triple Crowns Irish schools sides win or how many adults bask in the glow of these victories, but instead how many continue playing the game and how their talent has been maximised.

As things stand, in one of the supreme ironies, it seems the schools game is now being run more for the benefit of adults than the participants.
So - rather than merely quoting something which GT has covered in his article that players get to where they are despite the schools system and rather than quoting me a fixture list from NZ, take each of the points that GT has made and deconstruct them, show how he (not me - I merely agree with him) is wrong in his assessment and demonstate (with examples) how the schools system is working.
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Post by combatlogo »

Would I be correct in thinking that a fair few English and French elite 18/19 year olds don't play England/France schools internationals because they're on academy contracts with clubs???
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Post by Duff Paddy »

Uncle Mort wrote:
So - rather than merely quoting something which GT has covered in his article that players get to where they are despite the schools system and rather than quoting me a fixture list from NZ, take each of the points that GT has made and deconstruct them, show how he (not me - I merely agree with him) is wrong in his assessment and demonstate (with examples) how the schools system is working.

why would I do that? If you read my post you'd see that I was replying to your comment that "schools rugby does not produce rugby for the long term" - I never mentioned Thornley's article, you did.
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Post by Uncle Mort »

Duff Paddy wrote:
Uncle Mort wrote:
So - rather than merely quoting something which GT has covered in his article that players get to where they are despite the schools system and rather than quoting me a fixture list from NZ, take each of the points that GT has made and deconstruct them, show how he (not me - I merely agree with him) is wrong in his assessment and demonstate (with examples) how the schools system is working.

why would I do that? If you read my post you'd see that I was replying to your comment that "schools rugby does not produce rugby for the long term" - I never mentioned Thornley's article, you did.
Which is actually what GT is saying - my words not his I'll accept but if you pick on my words you pick on his words too. My words do not exist in isolation of GT's article. Also the point that you made was covered by GT in his article when he said that people (like yourself) who quote numbers of internationals (in your case it was the number of players in the Leinster team) is covered when GT says "No, they happen to pass through the schools, understandably if you think of the sport's socio-economic base, and that they ultimately become internationals can be as much in spite of, rather than because of, the schools".

So you're response to me is purely pedantic - of course 10 from 15 would be from the schools system - as GT says this is in spite of, not because of the current schools system. What I would like you (or anyone else to do) is, in the light of the comments made by GT in his article say why the current situation is the best way forward for Irish Rugby in the long term.

As I say - the current situation can not be good in the long term and in seeking further short term success the schools will bring the game further and further behind what is needed by the international set-up. Of course unless anything does change the internation team will continue to made up of players from these schools and so further and futher behind in terms of quality and ability, you may see this as success for the schools but anyone with a eye on the greater prize will be able to see that it is not.
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Post by Duff Paddy »

Uncle Mort wrote:
So you're response to me is purely pedantic -
No, it wasn't actually. You asked me to go through Thornley's article and "deconstruct each point that GT has made" - inferring that I disagreed with the article en masse. I think GT raises some good points in the article (and some not so good point). At no point however, does he say that schools rugby doesn't produce players for the long term.




Uncle Mort wrote:of course 10 from 15 would be from the schools system - as GT says this is in spite of, not because of the current schools system.
I think this is one of the sillier points Thornley makes to be honest, and it's kind of a shame as he makes other good points about the standard of coaching and the influence of the schools lobby.


Uncle Mort wrote:What I would like you (or anyone else to do) is, in the light of the comments made by GT in his article say why the current situation is the best way forward for Irish Rugby in the long term.
I have no idea if it's the best weay forward for Irish rugby or not. What I do know is that destroying the system would likely be disaster for the provinces and the international team. I love the schools cups, they are fantastic competitions with a lot of support. They are not perfect by any means, but there is a school of thinking doing the rounds whose mantra is that schools rugby is bad and that's the end of it. Comments like "the players just happen to pass through the schools" are silly when you consider a school like rock - churning out pro rugby players every year. Would we have the likes of O'Driscoll, Munch, Cullen, Quinlan, Fitzgerald etc if they attended their local non-rugby playing community school and hadn't been exposed to rugby at the right age? I'd say we'd be lucky to have one or two of them in that case. The case for rugby schools is even more pronounced outside the pale, in the likes of Kilkenny, Roscrea etc where players would otherwise undoubtedly lost to the GAA. The solution in my view, is not to destroy the schools game but to expand it - as the IRFU have been doing with more than a little success in recent years.
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Re: Havent had one of these for a while...

Post by loosehead »

beanie wrote:
Slipper1 wrote:Lets start a schools rugby debate... :twisted:
Lord Gezza of the Irish Times wrote:
Physical chasm a cause for concern

Gerry Thornley On Rugby: Hasn't it been extraordinary how the fizz just went out of Irish rugby so suddenly this season? A salient warning, perhaps, as to what the future might hold.

There's still plenty around to fill the Heineken European Cup post quarter-final void; be it the climax to the Magners Celtic League, the AIB League or, with that warning in mind, the recently completed IRB Under-19 World Championship in Ulster.

By being on our own doorstep, the tournament has at least sparked some debate which, you hope, has reached 62 Lansdowne Road and beyond. Ireland weren't alone in struggling against the southern hemisphere "Big Three", whose only defeat in 11 matches against other teams was France's 17-8 win over South Africa, and much of the debate has centred on that physical chasm.

Yet as striking was the gulf in skills. Ireland did not lack for possession against Australia, indeed the Baby Blacks were smaller than the gargantuan Baby Boks but destroyed them in the final with their handling skills, awareness, pace and eye for the tryline.

Charlie McAleese, the coach of the Ireland Under-19s, isn't the first under-age coach to feel utter frustration with a system in which the fiefdom that is the schools' lobby enjoys near untouchable status within the Irish under-age structure. As he told this newspaper on Saturday, "the be-all and end-all of protecting and ring-fencing the schools cup just does not prepare players to improve as quickly as we need them to improve in terms of conditioning, skills and game appreciation."

By far the least relevant under-age results, especially in the longer term, are those achieved by the Irish Schools and a far more meaningful yardstick has been the annual Under-19 tournament. There must also be many a club coach, from mini-rugby up, or provincial coach who winces every time he is reminded that supposedly around 85 per cent of Irish internationals are produced by the schools. No, they happen to pass through the schools, understandably if you think of the sport's socio-economic base, and that they ultimately become internationals can be as much in spite of, rather than because of, the schools.

There are many pluses to the schools game generally and their parochial, provincial competitions, such as the health, discipline and camaraderie it produces, but the emphasis (unique in global rugby) on knock-out cups is not conducive to either coaches or players developing skills.

Introducing qualifying leagues for the cups has only heightened the need for winning from September or October onwards. By right there should be no junior cup at all, with leagues, encompassing a points system to encourage try-scoring, running all the way through to - for the sake of tradition - one senior cup.

It is also a nonsense that the IRFU schools committee selects coaches for the Irish schools side. Not alone is this dangerously political, it has also seen the committee go outside the union's own accredited coaches. Furthermore, at least three of the leading rugby schools in Leinster are employing coaches from outside the IRFU's coaching system.

Increasingly, schools coaches are being paid and risk dismissal unless they deliver trophies.

Ironically, though the schools retain first call on players over clubs, even those clubs who introduced the player to the game, the IRFU are far more effective in ensuring the clubs use union-accredited coaches than the schools. Go figure.

It surely is no co-incidence that the best under-age performance of any Irish side in recent years - the recent Under-20 Grand Slam - followed nine months of conditioning and training for the majority of those players in the provincial academies, mostly Leinster's under Colin McEntee. The under-20s were also coached by Eric Elwood and Dan McFarland - IRFU-accredited coaches.

In the Under-19 World Championship the way the Welsh team sought to keep the ball alive and attack space bore echoes of, say, Mike Ruddock and Scott Johnson's Welsh Grand Slam team of two long years ago or the current Llanelli Scarlets. In number eight Sam Warburton and halfbacks Rhys Webb and Gareth Owen and others, they look to have some true stars of the future.

None of this is a coincidence. "This is an issue we addressed a number of years ago," admitted the Welsh CEO Roger Lewis yesterday. "We have established very good relationships with schools. We identify elite players in the schools from beyond 16, have complete access to them and introduce them to the regional academies."

"Critically, the four academies and their coaches are all employed by the Welsh RFU," adds Lewis. "Our under-19s under Justin Burnell play a style of game that we've adopted in Wales, which is an expansive, high tempo ball in hand game and each players' progress is monitored centrally by our High Performance Unit."

To that end, the Welsh HPU met yesterday and have identified five players in their under-19 squad they believe can progress to the top of the game, which would be a good return and is the true measure of success at this level.

Unless the schools game here starts adhering to the union's own long-term playing model, and begins employing IRFU-accredited coaches within the provincial set-ups and changes its competitive structures, then it will behove someone or people with vision in the IRFU to follow the example of the Welsh.

The priority of the schools game should not be whether boys from under-14 up wins trophies, or how much money it makes, how many Triple Crowns Irish schools sides win or how many adults bask in the glow of these victories, but instead how many continue playing the game and how their talent has been maximised.

As things stand, in one of the supreme ironies, it seems the schools game is now being run more for the benefit of adults than the participants.


i have to agree with GT, i played SCT rugby and it doesnt make any sense to play 'friendlies' all season and then start the cup in february.

i think a super 14 type system applies whereby at the end of the league the top 4 play off for the 'championship' the middle schools play off for the plate and the bottom ranked schools play off for the bowl etc. (that way there is always something to play for)

while this is how i think it should work i dont think the lesser schools would buy into it as im sure they would feel they would just be the whipping boys for the bigger schools.
either way something has to change

I'm not so sure. I played JCT in the mid 80s (oh my god I'm old...) for CUS, not a big school by any stretch, but we had a very good pool of players between JCT and SCT for a few years. In my JCT year we won 14 of 18 friendlies and they included good wins against most of the big schools, but we went out narrowly in the first round of the cup. The nucleus of the team then went on to the SCT semi in 89.

A league system would have shown a much fairer reflection of our ranking than the all or nothing result of one single game. At the same time a league would have shown, fairly, if we were consistently bad.
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the economist
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Post by the economist »

I agree cup rugby is bad for player development. being involved in a very minor way with a small school the team does quit well during the season against the bigger schools often beating a Rock or Mary's and come the cup you discover that half the bigger schools players were being "rested" and you get whiped the guys are devistated and give up. It should be a league with no more than 2/3 matches a month over a season with a shield/plate/ bowl system, full bonus points etc. As Bill Shankley said "Cups are for drinking"
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Post by lummix »

I totally disagree with all of you. I played SCT for 2 years and went out in the quarter finals both years, this while heartbreaking at the time, makes you mentally tougher. During the year you play the senior league and the level of training and competition means your never fitter or playing better in your life. The do or die situation of the senior cup should aid players in later years when they play in world cups, 6 nations etc when its all on the day you must perform.

The problems is the feeder system into the clubs. Most players go to clubs and after playing schools the organisation is poor and you dont train half as much, also clubs are full of politics and the best players often get overlooked for somebodys son or brother.

I believe if you look at the stats most players dont quit after school but rather after 20s with the clubs.

I believe you should set up a college cup to mirror the senior cup and pick up all the players who fall through the net.
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Durkah Durkah
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Post by Durkah Durkah »

How a school coach their players at the moment is totally up to the school. This is where the main problem lies. Are the school coaching the player for the player's benefit or the schools?

Unfortunately, IMO, I believe that most schools coach for the schools benefit. If a student does not show a certain ability at the start he is often sent off to the 'B', 'C', 'D', etc team to wallow away. Ironically these guys often improve greatly as their coaches sole function is to make them better players.

The 'A' team panel have got to start working on their patterns, unit skills, fitness and conditioning straight away as WINNING IS EVERYTHING. And when you watch the schools play in the cup competitions these are the areas where they are strong. Guys seem bigger, fitter and faster almost yearly. Their rucking, scrummaging, mauling, defensive alignment, etc is very organised.

The thing missing is individual basic skill. Carl Heyman can pass a ball from the back of the ruck 20 yards of either hand. Has John Hayes passed a ball further than 2 feet ever?! Is that John Hayes fault? No. He probably was never coached to, or even worse, never encouraged to when he was younger?

Schools have to realise that developing a player is part of a holistic education for a student, developing a team of programmed robots is not.
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Post by Duff Paddy »

Durkah Durkah wrote:Carl Heyman can pass a ball from the back of the ruck 20 yards of either hand. Has John Hayes passed a ball further than 2 feet ever?! Is that John Hayes fault? No. He probably was never coached to, or even worse, never encouraged to when he was younger?
They have the schools system in New Zealand.
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Durkah Durkah
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Post by Durkah Durkah »

They have the schools system in lots of countries. My point is that I believe that schools here are more competition driven. Even with the intensity of schools rugby in South Africa, where schools matches are televised weekly and the big games have over 20,000 at them, plus Craven week, the teams below Senior level are just about player development. I don't know if it is similar in NZ. I know Australia play a league format instead of a cup but don't know their philosophy to coaching students.
It would be interesting to compare the different countries approach at schools level. We might even learn something :shock:
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Post by lummix »

They dont tackle in rugby in New Zealand until Under 12s, they just work on their skills. Its 2 handed tip below the waste. allows kids to develop off loading skills and passing first.
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