Is this site anti Club?

[Flash Gordon]

Apologies in advance for length of post.


Con - Club game: A core of people here do seem to have nothing but distain for club game, they blame their lack of support on the clubs not being able to deal with professional era but in my opinion this is a cop-out. It is the grass roots of the game and I will never agree with or even understand how rugby fans can have such an anti-club stance but I won't lose any sleep over them.


……

I read this post on another thread that fatboy had written and thought it worth a thought. This viewpoint tends to be put across fairly regularly and I really don't believe it to be true. I honestly can't think of anyone who wants to scrap the club structure or even not continue to support it. Maybe I'm mistaken.

Bizarrely I keep getting roped in and pushed as an anti-club advocate. I don't understand this at all. I've been involved in club rugby here, played it in Holland and now I spend my Sunday coaching kids at a well established Dublin club. Which is hardly evidence of not being behind the clubs.

That being said, there are lots of guys here who played and are involved in club rugby who believe that it needs reform. Club finances are a mess, they can't agree on anything (league structure being a case in point), playing numbers are plummeting and the 1000's of kids who leave school are disappearing into other sports or just giving up the game. Furthermore, it almost feels like the provinces have decided that the clubs are unlikely to produce enough output to feed into the provincial and international game - guys like Rob and Luke are going straight from school into the academy for example.

Do the clubs have a future and what is it? Can they again become the main feeder for the provinces and the interantional team? Are they the medium by which kids will enter rugby (particularly outside the rugby heartlands)? Or are they just going to become a place where people can go along and play a bit of rugger and have a few pints - social clubs in essence?

[Leinsterman]

Flash - it's not quite a pro/con club thing. I think a lot of people have a "blurred" view of it. Anyway, here's my tuppence worth:

In one sense I hate the bigger clubs because of their shennanigans (holding the IRFU to ransom, flogging tickets due to them running up massive costs in the 90s by paying players and bringing in SH coaches, fielding ringer teams every second week in a pathetic attempt to stick any form of a pennant in the cabinet at the end of the season etc..) and also how they have failed to develop and expand the game in this country over the years.
On the other hand, there's been massive work done in the non traditional areas by Junior clubs to develop the game and bring youngsters through.
Look at clubs in places like Navan and Naas - they've got bigger squads than some of the "traditional" teams that can barely field a 3rds side every weekend.

However, there's quite a few people here who lump all the clubs together and fail to differentiate between them. They are quick to shoot down all clubs and seem to fail to appreciate the mountains of work put in by volunteers who give up a lot of their time. They accuse all clubs of touting off international temas and feel aggrieved that because thney have the luxury of turning up and watching international standard players a few times a season that they should be entitled to Ireland tickets.

They see Leinster as their "club" and that's it.... nothing else matters to them. Rugby may be a professional business now but there's still thousands of people out there who want to play every week and without the club structure this would not be possible.

I like your points - I agree with them. We now see kids going straight into the academies or playing for the university sides - these are also essentially feeder clubs to the provinces.
It would be terrible if the club system fell t opieces IMO. Sure it needs a reform but where else can people play rugby if they're amateurs? Be it at the highest amateur level possible or the lowest?

I feel a massive revamp needs to be carried out and the first thing is that the AIL be disbanded and a return to the provincial leagues be restored. This would cut costs for a lot of clubs and also heighten the standard due to more local rivalries being played.

I've loads more to say but can't think of it at the moment. I'm off for a cuppa and then I'll be back with more. This doesn't mean to sound like a rant - apologies if it does.

[Darce]

Apologies in advance for length of post.


Con - Club game: A core of people here do seem to have nothing but distain for club game, they blame their lack of support on the clubs not being able to deal with professional era but in my opinion this is a cop-out. It is the grass roots of the game and I will never agree with or even understand how rugby fans can have such an anti-club stance but I won't lose any sleep over them.


……

I read this post on another thread that fatboy had written and thought it worth a thought. This viewpoint tends to be put across fairly regularly and I really don't believe it to be true. I honestly can't think of anyone who wants to scrap the club structure or even not continue to support it. Maybe I'm mistaken.

Bizarrely I keep getting roped in and pushed as an anti-club advocate. I don't understand this at all. I've been involved in club rugby here, played it in Holland and now I spend my Sunday coaching kids at a well established Dublin club. Which is hardly evidence of not being behind the clubs.

That being said, there are lots of guys here who played and are involved in club rugby who believe that it needs reform. Club finances are a mess, they can't agree on anything (league structure being a case in point), playing numbers are plummeting and the 1000's of kids who leave school are disappearing into other sports or just giving up the game. Furthermore, it almost feels like the provinces have decided that the clubs are unlikely to produce enough output to feed into the provincial and international game - guys like Rob and Luke are going straight from school into the academy for example.

Do the clubs have a future and what is it? Can they again become the main feeder for the provinces and the interantional team? Are they the medium by which kids will enter rugby (particularly outside the rugby heartlands)? Or are they just going to become a place where people can go along and play a bit of rugger and have a few pints - social clubs in essence?

Going forward, I dont see clubs producing professional players. But in saying that, I do think they have a very important role to play in rugby going forward

Clubs will be the place where minis learn the game, Where non ring fenced schools players can get their games outside of schools(in saying that, i don't think schools should be able to rule players like that).
I think the 20's leagues are great comps and gave me a real eye opener to the higher standard of rugby. I think the AIL should be the natural move for schools players who don't make the acadamies.
Junior rugby will of course provide adults who play the game with the social and competitve oulet they need.

When we hear club rugby is dying, what we really hear is that the traditional power houses(the ones with the loudest voices) are dying. Even dying is a bit strong of a word. I think there cloth is being cut to measure. Before, they had 8 adult mens teams, they now have 4. This is beacuse the young male players simply dont live near Wes, Belvo or Lansdowne. They live in Ratoath, Ashbourne, Dunboyne etc. and not Blackrock, monkstown, sandymount and Donnybrook. Its a case of the butter being spread thinner, rather than a severe lack of butter.

[tate]

you're hitting the nail on the head there darce, the traditional recruiting grounds for players are moving away from the "city centre" clubs, and out towards commutersville.

Most clubs are finally starting to get together a competitive u20s team, with a bit of recruitment going into it as well. Certainly compared to a few years ago where it was just pretty much just UCD, now the other clubs have realised they can start the basis of a good senior side by enticing young lads in at u20s.

[Flash Gordon]

you're hitting the nail on the head there darce, the traditional recruiting grounds for players are moving away from the "city centre" clubs, and out towards commutersville.

Most clubs are finally starting to get together a competitive u20s team, with a bit of recruitment going into it as well. Certainly compared to a few years ago where it was just pretty much just UCD, now the other clubs have realised they can start the basis of a good senior side by enticing young lads in at u20s.

Which is where people live of course. Normal people can't afford to live on Merrion Road or Donnybrook.

I think the clubs have a massive role to play in introducing rugby outside of the schools system. The kids I'm coaching at 6's and 7's are getting their first taste of rugby now. Years ago their only option was to play GAA or soccer. We've played blitzes all over Leinster with the focus on the kids having fun and teaching technique. So a major positive.

I guess the trick will be to ensure that these kids get to play a decent level during secondary school - could there be a schoolboy league or cup to rival the Leinster schools cup - or indeed could Barnhall U-18's play i nthe Leinster senior cup?

I think the view that the traditional clubs are suffering most is probably true. But the fact remains that the number of rugby players in Ireland is declining and one of the main reasons is that the clubs aren't attracting enough schoolboys who move onto another sport or do nothing.

[FatBoyChoice]

My original point was part of a very different discussion and was a reaction to a number of negative posts I'd seen since joining.

A lot of what you say is true, particularly about the larger clubs. I wouldn't try to preach to anyone as i am no longer a member of a club (or play) but I do attend games where possible. My main problem is I live 2 hours drive from my club and though I've tried I don't have the same affinity for clubs around D4/6.

If the people don't want to support club sides then fair enough but I don't think they should come on here and justify this by slagging off ALL clubs. Many club members, particularly in the lower leagues put huge time & effort into its day-to-day running through fundraising, coaching etc, and i think its unfair to dismiss this based on mismanagement at a few of the big clubs.

[harryp]

My take on it is:

1. Senior Clubs, especially in Dublin are dying. These clubs hold the power and the sway and to a certain extent lead people to believe that clubs are dying.

2. Given the success Internationally & Provincially of late, too many rugby supporters have no interest whatsoever in Club rugby, yet continue to criticise the Clubs? Why? If they know nothing about it, say nothing. To a certain extent that is why I would believe that this site is anti clubs.

3. Club Rugby in Cork, Limerick and Provincially is thriving. Not only are provincial teams now putting out competitive 3rds teams rather than a game a year for the auld boys, but Tag rugby, Womens Rugby and even Rugby League are growing exponentially and has resulted in very significant uptakes in people getting involved in rugby.

Playing the game in traditional Dublin is very difficult given traffic, work, pressures etc and therefore the uptake of the game is poor in Dublin. However, traditional Dublin IMHO is the exception. Rugby in the rest of the country is thriving.

[Dave Cahill]

There are two types of clubs in Ireland. Professional Clubs and Amateur Clubs. Professional clubs serve no useful purpose, are a drain on the games resources and should be returned to amateur status. No problem with amateur clubs.

[combatlogo]

My take on it is:

2. Given the success Internationally & Provincially of late, too many rugby supporters have no interest whatsoever in Club rugby, yet continue to criticise the Clubs? Why? If they know nothing about it, say nothing. To a certain extent that is why I would believe that this site is anti clubs.
.

Firstly, I fail to see how a forum made up of quite a few different people expressing differnet opinions can be said to have a particular opinion on anything.

Secondly, I don't think people who have expressed reservations about the club or school scene are anti-club per se but rather are pointing out problems/issues/areas for improvement. Several of those in this category would have a history of involvement in the schools and club game. I really don't think that there is anyone on this site slagging off clubs just for shits and giggles nor is there anyone with no prior involvement in the game having a pop at clubs.

I'd pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

[Flash Gordon]

My original point was part of a very different discussion and was a reaction to a number of negative posts I'd seen since joining.

A lot of what you say is true, particularly about the larger clubs. I wouldn't try to preach to anyone as i am no longer a member of a club (or play) but I do attend games where possible. My main problem is I live 2 hours drive from my club and though I've tried I don't have the same affinity for clubs around D4/6.

If the people don't want to support club sides then fair enough but I don't think they should come on here and justify this by slagging off ALL clubs. Many club members, particularly in the lower leagues put huge time & effort into its day-to-day running through fundraising, coaching etc, and i think its unfair to dismiss this based on mismanagement at a few of the big clubs.

Fatboy, I definitely wasn't trying to nail you on this one - I think what you've said is reflective of a significant body of opinion on this site.

The point I was making was that I genuinely don't think people are anti-club. There are people who are frustrated that clubs can't be better - but I'd suggest that's way less than the number of people who think Leinster or Ireland could be better.

[ckav]

My take on it is:

2. Given the success Internationally & Provincially of late, too many rugby supporters have no interest whatsoever in Club rugby, yet continue to criticise the Clubs? Why? If they know nothing about it, say nothing. To a certain extent that is why I would believe that this site is anti clubs.
.

Firstly, I fail to see how a forum made up of quite a few different people expressing differnet opinions can be said to have a particular opinion on anything.

Secondly, I don't think people who have expressed reservations about the club or school scene are anti-club per se but rather are pointing out problems/issues/areas for improvement. Several of those in this category would have a history of involvement in the schools and club game. I really don't think that there is anyone on this site slagging off clubs just for shits and giggles nor is there anyone with no prior involvement in the game having a pop at clubs.

I'd pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

I too, fail to grasp why this site is labelled "anti-club" or indeed "anti-Schools".

The only contributor who has been consistently outspoken and vocal about the negatives surrounding the Schools issue is Mort. (and, albeit to a lesser degree, Flash)

We should be inclined to listen to these arguments. Mort's is especially interesting, given that he's not from these parts and therefore has no historical axe to grind, bitter memories of being beaten 657-nil by Rock, etc etc etc etc.


Personally, I think the Schools provide the backbone of rugby in Leinster - but the competition in its current format is unhealthy, and the media focus on kids who play, is quite frankly wierd. So I'm all for change there. And I'm vehemently pro-Schools rugby. Get them started young, and they'll be hooked.

From my side, I really have no experience with the clubs, as I don't play rugby. I don't know enough about the clubs to have a definitive take on their status, one way or the other. I think they have a huge historic significance, it's a shame they're fading from the scene, but that's what you get when the game turns professional, I guess. Going to Stradbrook in the 90s was like going to Donnybrook these days. It's sad to see that dwindle, but times change.

Why is the site labelled anti-anything? I wouldn't even say this site is anti-Munster, to be honest.....there's no "prevailing mood" here.

[Flash Gordon]

My take on it is:

2. Given the success Internationally & Provincially of late, too many rugby supporters have no interest whatsoever in Club rugby, yet continue to criticise the Clubs? Why? If they know nothing about it, say nothing. To a certain extent that is why I would believe that this site is anti clubs.
.

Firstly, I fail to see how a forum made up of quite a few different people expressing differnet opinions can be said to have a particular opinion on anything.

Secondly, I don't think people who have expressed reservations about the club or school scene are anti-club per se but rather are pointing out problems/issues/areas for improvement. Several of those in this category would have a history of involvement in the schools and club game. I really don't think that there is anyone on this site slagging off clubs just for shits and giggles nor is there anyone with no prior involvement in the game having a pop at clubs.

I'd pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

That would be my take on it too. I honestly believe that this anti-club bias thing is a fallacy.

Harry, you may be right about Dublin - though I guess that would depend on how you defined Dublin. However, the fact remains that the number of rugby players in Ireland is on the slide. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of schools players disappear after school. So unfortunately, the club game by definition in Ireland is declining. In a country with a small player base like ours, that's a major issue.

I'd like to see the IRFU invest more in clubs and have a strategy for clubs with people and investment to manage it. Commercially for example - I totally appreciate that well meaning amateurs do give up a lot of time for their clubs. But this is with differing levels of success and capability. In many ways it shows an inherant bias towards establishment clubs - the D4 clubs are rich considering their player base maybe that's because their members have contacts and can call in favours in the business world. And there must be some of that. All due respect to Wanderers but can Eircom really justify a commercial return on sponsoring a third division club with limited player base?

I'd centralise the commercial aspects of club rugby as a unit. I know from working on sponsorship that if say Carlow or Belvo came to me looking for a deal, there'd be little commercial sense in it. However, if someone came to me offering shirt sponsorship for all clubs playing in Leinster or in the AIL, that's a different story. That's big money stuff.

[RugbyBug]

Personally, as a member of a Junior club I have seen the game at this level, and the clubs have grown in the last few years. Facilities at clubs like Coolmine, Garda, Barnhall, Roscrea are as good if not better than most AIL clubs. Granted most of these Junior clubs tend to be based in outer dublin and leinster and are benefiting from a general increase in their populations in the areas. There is also alot of work done by some clubs in connecting with some "non-rugby playing" schools, such as the hook up between North Kildare and Maynooth S.C. This is were i see the future for alot of the junior clubs, acting as a hub to encourage local schools to start playing rugby and as CKav said if you hook them young they'll keep playing.

As for the senior clubs, I think they need to formulate a way of retaining more school players once they head off to college, I played for a year at an AIL club, in d6, and not one of the sct from the local school came to the club the following season, this drain is a huge concern to the senior clubs.

Their is a three tier club structure in this country, the professional senior clubs, amateur senior clubs and junior clubs, they all have problems, but the problems involved do not seem to be the same, in general (money will always be a problem for them all)

[Flash Gordon]

Rugby bug, and can I just add that some of the facilities at these clubs are second to none. Was up with my team at Coolmine there recently and the club house and pitches are fantastic.

Agree totally on the player retention issue. Its massive and needs to be addressed.

CKav. I am NOT anti-schools. I think there are things about schools rugby that could be improved. As there are at Leinster and Ireland! But that's another debate.

[RugbyBug]

Flash, wait till you see the new all weather training pitch which should be in place by the start of next season, i think its ment to be similiar to the one terenure have. With that, the new clubhouse extension and a certain B. Jackman as coach next year could be a big one for the D15 club, just need to get the fock out of Div 2...........again!!

[groundhog]

My own tuppence worth, this site is far from anti-clubs but most people recognise that the current structure of senior rugby is not working. However conversely junior rugby imho has never been stronger. The provincial towns cup J1 and J3 finals are on this Sunday in Kildare and it's anticipated that a crowd between 2K and 3k will attend. Nearly all the junior teams in the Leinster League Division 1 and 2 field 3 sides with the likes of Naas, Porlaoise, Navan etc fielding 4 adult sides and these clubs are all starting to field womens teams as well. Naas have a tremendous set-up and are in excellent shape as they re-enter the AIL but there is a school of thought in Naas that they would be better off remaining in the Leinster League as travelling costs are cut (There will be only 2 other Leinster teams in Div 3 Old Wesley and Carlow) and they are guaranteed local derbies which always bring a big crowd. Take Carlow for example, the AIL is crippling that club, they have suffered 2 successive relegations, they have ignored their under-age set-ups instead bringing in over-seas players and coaches and what is there solution for next season, spending more money on a big name coach, is this case allegedly Willie Anderson.

The schools arguement has been done to death but as GT reported in the Irish Times something needs to be done to change it.

The AIL needs to be restructured and my own solution would be 10 team premiership with the the universitys UCD, UL, UCC, Queens and UCG providing 5 spots with the other 5 spots going to the top 5 in AIL Division 1, all academy and fringe provincial players would be availabe to play. The remaining AIL clubs would be sent back to their provinces to form a senior Division for example Leinster League Senior with the Leinster League Divisions feeding up. The winners of the provincial senior leagues would then enter a round round to replace the bottom placed non-university side.
Anyway the clubs would never vote for it but something need to be done...

[ckav]

CKav. I am NOT anti-schools. I think there are things about schools rugby that could be improved. As there are at Leinster and Ireland! But that's another debate.

I didn't say you were!! I said you talk about the negatives - and there are plenty.

There's a difference between a generalised sweeping statement such as " this site is anti-club" or "this site is anti-schools", and actually having the gumption to see there are things to be improved in both areas!

[groundhog]

wait till you see the new all weather training pitch which should be in place by the start of next season,

Just to blow ones trumpet Cill Dara have 4 of these

[RugbyBug]

wait till you see the new all weather training pitch which should be in place by the start of next season,

Just to blow ones trumpet Cill Dara have 4 of these

Fair focks, never noticed them b4 tbh, although its been a while since i've had the pleasure of playing down there.........

Nothing wrong with a bit of trumpet blowing either!!

[Donny B.]

However, there's quite a few people here who lump all the clubs together and fail to differentiate between them. They are quick to shoot down all clubs and seem to fail to appreciate the mountains of work put in by volunteers who give up a lot of their time. They accuse all clubs of touting off international temas and feel aggrieved that because they have the luxury of turning up and watching international standard players a few times a season that they should be entitled to Ireland tickets.

They see Leinster as their "club" and that's it.... nothing else matters to them. Rugby may be a professional business now but there's still thousands of people out there who want to play every week and without the club structure this would not be possible.

I think LM's comments sum up the crux of the issue. It's an argument about international tickets. LM clearly feels that people who are regular provincial supporters but who are un-attached to clubs are worthless bandwagon-jumpers. This is not an isolated opinion either. If there is an anti-club attitude on this site, I think it's largely generated by this dismissive attitude among certain posters.

I've recently become a member of a club, but I wouldn't look down on regular fans who put their time and money into supporting Leinster as "lesser" fans. For the most part of the ten years I've been supporting Leinster, I've been one of those non-affiliated fans. I've spent a lot of time and money supporting Leinster, especially in the days when there was two men and a dog there and I don't accept that not having a club tie makes me a second class citizen. I don't feel that this entitles me to an international ticket, but I'd like to have some chance.

I know a lot of people who are involved in club rugby in the province that don't give a toss about Leinster. That's fine, that's their choice. But equally, people who want to support Leinster without joining a club are making their own choice. Leinster, and all the provinces, have brought more people into rugby in the last ten years from non-traditional rugby areas. Hell, I'm one of them!

As a member of Tallaght RFC, I'm certainly more than supportive of community clubs that are thriving at the moment. I'm less sympathetic towards the bigger clubs who pay players and coaches and then plead the poor-mouth and insist they have to flog their international tickets to the corporate sector to survive.

Posters who continue to dismiss non-affiliated fans as "lesser" rugby supporters damage the reputation of the club game. Personally I think there's room for everyone. The provinces to bring people in and get them interested, then the amateur clubs to maybe get some new members who want to play/get involved. Hell I'm one of them as well!