Leinster Senior Cup 2008

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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby ....Till I Die » February 15th, 2008, 7:54 pm

Ok so who will win between CBC Monkstown and St. Mary's?
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby true blue 06 » February 15th, 2008, 10:10 pm

i can understand a team sticking it in the pack if their backs are useless but clongowes always seem to play 10 man rugby. last year they had dave kearney and tom fletcher in the backline who were starved of the ball during the cup. kearney is a very good player but didn't have much to do in the cup. this year, lorcan smyth looks good at full back..... reckon clongowes will win it, belvo have had 2 dissapointing performances and although it wasn't a typical rock team, beating them in the replay will have given clongowes a lot of confidence.

i reckon monkstown will beat marys... stronger pack , better backs , more momentum
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby bunty85 » February 16th, 2008, 4:02 pm

The odds on CBC have been cut big time-6/4 on Boyle Sports. Marys 4-1, if I wasn't supporting Marys I'd have a flutter on that.
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby bunty85 » February 16th, 2008, 4:26 pm

Sunday February 03 2008

Brendan Fanning
This afternoon at Donnybrook, you will be able to witness a game in which the players are younger, and smaller, and who will not be paid - but for whom the whole experience will be comparable in intensity to what we saw in Croke Park yesterday.


Blackrock meet Clongowes in the quarter-final of the Leinster Schools' Senior Cup, and the place will be packed. The pressure that attends this occasion will be white hot, and that's as it should be.

Most of the players will be old enough to drive a car, and vote, and drink and get married. In a few months, many of them will sit an exam which might shape the rest of their lives. So they are young adults. It's about time they dealt with the demands of delivering under pressure.

There is a problem with this however: the idea that they have been given the skills to cope well in this environment is bogus. This is not because the environment itself is alien - far from it, they have grown up with highly charged competition - it's that they look first and foremost for the lowest common denominator. They maximise the effort and eliminate the risk. As an exercise in showcasing their rugby skills, it is a non-starter. For many of them this doesn't matter in the long run, because they give up the game soon after.

The process of starving these players of skills actually starts at mini-rugby, where most of them will have been introduced to the game. This is where we get it back to front. This is where we bypass the fundamentals of teaching seven- and eight-year-olds the mechanics of running, the notion of moving in the right direction, the idea that freeflow is more fun than gridlock. Before they have got to grips with which way is forward, never mind getting to grips with the challenge that is a rugby ball itself, we drop them into game situations. And then we shout at them to tackle.

Rugby is like War And Peace compared to the short story that is Gaelic football and soccer at this level. Which makes you wonder why we don't spend more time learning to read. And then, perhaps in their second year of learning, just when they're coming to terms with the direction of the game and the shape of the ball, we come over all physical.

Surely there is nothing less suited to an eight-year-old mastering the skill of passing a ball than to do it while being hammered by another kid who may be the same age but is twice his size. To see this in full technicolour, you need to check out The Blitz.

At one of these events last season, a gig run with the best intentions by people with great logistical skill, the fever was running high. In the first place, I was baffled why there had to be a structure that led to a final, timed to take place after the other teams had packed up and gone home. Why have a knock-out system for six- and seven-year-olds? Why should there have to be a winner?

In the second place, I was stunned by one cretin of a coach who shouted at one of his reluctant players: "Don't be a chicken!"

It was an ironic choice of words - for with coaches like that and a system which facilitates them, what you get at the end of the line are battery hens. Check out the default mode of schools players nowadays and you'll find that it is 'pick and go'. And not very far.

It's attractive because it is low risk, and the skills needed to pass under pressure have never been learned. How could they, when we don't give them the time and space to learn them? Why ask them to learn how to tackle before they have learned how to pass?

On Tuesday night, the Leinster Branch will sign off on terms of reference for a five-man committee who will review the schools' scene: its competitions and coaching and administration. You can only hope that in their findings they recommend parking the competitive stuff in the right area: senior cycle. And devote the rest of the time to learning the skills which have been abandoned at the outset.

That the neglect has been ongoing for years evidently hasn't alarmed anyone in Lansdowne Road. Perhaps they are too caught up with the intensity of it all.

Just saw this on munsterfans.com and thought I'd post it. While I'm inclined to agree with the lack of skills in schools rugby after watching how CBC played Michaels it kind of makes a mockery of this sort of artical. 1-15 they had great skills on the ball and weren't just prepared to throw around their bulk. Apparently even Gerry Thornley has watched them play a few times this year, he being a notable sceptic of schools rugby in general. There has been a couple of great bits of play this year by Rock and Terenure but what do people think of this years standards in general? This artical does talk some sense though, a couple of teams play real 10 man rugby in the cup, and I thought the bit about having pressure come 18 was a good part. A couple of people on here really seem to think schools rugby is destroying Irish Rugby, kids should play for the fun ect. But is it really that bad that they experience a bit of pressure like no other before a lot of them go to senior level.
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby Grumpy Old Man » February 16th, 2008, 4:44 pm

Not sure Bunty. It's a competition I love and look forward to each year but there seems to be a very high drop out level among players once they are knocked out. I see the amount of training that the squads do and the pressure that some of the participants are under and I have to question whether the Senior Cup has grown too big. Very few of the players seem to be enjoying themselves.

The pool stages idea is interesting and is worth trying IMO.
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby bunty85 » February 16th, 2008, 6:10 pm

I'd put the drop out level more down to college life than anything else. We have to have a competition at this level and imo there is nothing wrong with how much pressure is on. The SC aint perfect(pool stages will help) and I agree that that having that kind of pressure at JC level is wrong and bad for skills. I think its great that we have a competition which helps players get ready for the riggers of pro rugby with all the attention given to it ect. I think this is one of the better articals on the SC but I don't agree with some of his points about the skill levels.
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby its about winning » February 16th, 2008, 8:12 pm

Though to call. Looks like Clongowes v Monkstown final. Two big packs. Both will be tight. Love to see Marys come through

Senior Cup Semi Final:
Clongowes Wood College v Belvedere College SJ (Donnybrook
St. Mary’s College v CBC Monkstown (Donnybrook)

Thursday, 28th February

Vinnie Murray (Senior) Cup Semi Final:

St. Gerard’s v C.C. Roscrea - Roscrea
St. Columba’s v Gonzaga College - - Zaga
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby oh no where do we go! » February 17th, 2008, 2:00 pm

....Till I Die wrote:Ok so who will win between CBC Monkstown and St. Mary's?


it has to be one way CBC traffic , Marys have been lucky so far.
Look at the stats

CBC points for 54 against 3, no tries conceeded 7 scored, enough said

it could be an even bigger hammering than the michaels game
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby ruggerbugger » February 17th, 2008, 3:15 pm

oh no where do we go! wrote:
....Till I Die wrote:Ok so who will win between CBC Monkstown and St. Mary's?


it has to be one way CBC traffic , Marys have been lucky so far.
Look at the stats

CBC points for 54 against 3, no tries conceeded 7 scored, enough said

it could be an even bigger hammering than the michaels game


It will be very unlikely Monkstown play that well or are allowed to play that well again. Everything just seemed to click. Nobody thought they would play that well especially after the Columbas game when they had a hard time consolidating the win. Michaels wouldnt have been expecting that type of performance while Marys will. I want CBC to win but it wont be a one sided game. I think they will win because of their pack. They will dominate in the forwards and Marys' deadly back 3 wont get enough ball to inflict damage on Monkstown. Monkstown will win but it will be very tough. 10 points margin of victory at most.
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby Inside scoop » February 17th, 2008, 8:14 pm

oh no where do we go! wrote:
....Till I Die wrote:Ok so who will win between CBC Monkstown and St. Mary's?


it has to be one way CBC traffic , Marys have been lucky so far.
Look at the stats

CBC points for 54 against 3, no tries conceeded 7 scored, enough said

it could be an even bigger hammering than the michaels game



Ah get of your high horses CBC you beat a very very average micheals side. Marys are a very good side and bar the backrow can match the CBC pack no hassle! Marys beat the only side that has beaten cwc all year in zaga! And I don't see that centre foley getting such a easy ride against the Marys centre finnegan! Either way CBC are notorious bottlers. I see a belvo marys final with belvo to win it.
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby oh no where do we go! » February 17th, 2008, 8:29 pm

That Average Michaels side beat Marys easily

and as for bottlers Marys have choked in their last 3 semis

the last one against michaels was a farce, marys showed little or no spirit, i agree that they could match CBC but the question is...will they have the belief?
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby bunty85 » February 17th, 2008, 10:05 pm

Inside scoop wrote:
oh no where do we go! wrote:
....Till I Die wrote:Ok so who will win between CBC Monkstown and St. Mary's?


it has to be one way CBC traffic , Marys have been lucky so far.
Look at the stats

CBC points for 54 against 3, no tries conceeded 7 scored, enough said

it could be an even bigger hammering than the michaels game



Ah get of your high horses CBC you beat a very very average micheals side. Marys are a very good side and bar the backrow can match the CBC pack no hassle! Marys beat the only side that has beaten cwc all year in zaga! And I don't see that centre foley getting such a easy ride against the Marys centre finnegan! Either way CBC are notorious bottlers. I see a belvo marys final with belvo to win it.


The back row is an intergal part of the team. To say Marys can match CBC's front 5 is useless without the backrow. In other words you are saying CBC's pack is better. Besides those CBC props are very underrated imo and can take those Marys lads. And while Michaels are not the team they were last year, they still boasted about 10 squad players from last years winning cup team i think, hardly a average team. They have shown the most ability this year on the SC stage and drawn praise from all over the country. It was mentioned on munsterfans.com even and many newspapers have mentioned what a great performance it was. And I'm presuming your a Belvo boy with your one other post indicating so, they were known for bottling a cup or two between the very early 70s until 2 years ago. Things change, Michaels showed it last year.

Obviously though Marys are a good side(although the zaga team they beat actually beat Clongowes 2nds) and I can see them winning. Some people saying they'll be hammered by CBC are dreaming. They've beaten CBC already and its the Cup its a tough one to call.
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby true blue 06 » February 18th, 2008, 1:39 am

Inside scoop wrote:
oh no where do we go! wrote:
....Till I Die wrote:Ok so who will win between CBC Monkstown and St. Mary's?


it has to be one way CBC traffic , Marys have been lucky so far.
Look at the stats

CBC points for 54 against 3, no tries conceeded 7 scored, enough said

it could be an even bigger hammering than the michaels game



Ah get of your high horses CBC you beat a very very average micheals side. Marys are a very good side and bar the backrow can match the CBC pack no hassle! Marys beat the only side that has beaten cwc all year in zaga! And I don't see that centre foley getting such a easy ride against the Marys centre finnegan! Either way CBC are notorious bottlers. I see a belvo marys final with belvo to win it.


that very very average michaels side beat marys easily. the michaels team were awful on the day but cbc still beat antem with 7 players who are already senior cup winners from last year... not that average
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby Duff Paddy » February 18th, 2008, 11:28 am

That was not a very very average Michaels side - they were decent.
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby tate » February 18th, 2008, 12:34 pm

correct me if im wrong, but arent all michaels sides very very average?
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby true blue 06 » February 18th, 2008, 12:39 pm

tate wrote:correct me if im wrong, but arent all michaels sides very very average?



didn't you go to zaga?
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby tate » February 18th, 2008, 1:02 pm

true blue 06 wrote:
tate wrote:correct me if im wrong, but arent all michaels sides very very average?



didn't you go to zaga?



yeah, and we are fairly sh1t, and will most likely never win the thing.

The only reason i said it is because michaels have won one SCT (and i know thats more than gonzaga) in how many years? How many more finals did they get to? Michaels are the worst of the Big6, end of.
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby true blue 06 » February 18th, 2008, 3:33 pm

tate wrote:
true blue 06 wrote:
tate wrote:correct me if im wrong, but arent all michaels sides very very average?



didn't you go to zaga?



yeah, and we are fairly sh1t, and will most likely never win the thing.

The only reason i said it is because michaels have won one SCT (and i know thats more than gonzaga) in how many years? How many more finals did they get to? Michaels are the worst of the Big6, end of.


michaels were the junior school of rock up until the 1970s, they played their first senior cup campaign in 1976, they've been to 4 finals and won it once, they've won the junior cup twice. what are you basing that on? worst of the big 6? we knocked clongowes out of the cup in 2007, 2006 and 2005. knocked belvo out in 2007, the gick haven't played well sice they won it in 2003, mary's the same since they won it in 2002 ws it? and rock have been poor for the last 2 years. michaels are senior cup champions.........far from average and they are by far the most improved big 6 team in the last 10 years
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby tate » February 18th, 2008, 3:57 pm

i know the history of michaels, and that the trophy room in rock is/was the same colour as michaels now wear, blah blah. As in any other sport, trophies are what count. And one in 30 odd years doesnt exactly spell out over-achievement or dominance. Im sure someone else can tell us the exact figures, but im sure the other Big6 teams have won more than one in the last ten years. As for "improvement", well gonzaga now win their opening round more often than lose it, does this qualify them as more than average? No.

Last years team were clearly more than average, cos they won, but as a rule michaels are not. Im not having a go at you, or trying to wind you up, just saying
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Re: Leinster Senior Cup 2008

Postby true blue 06 » February 18th, 2008, 7:19 pm

tate wrote:i know the history of michaels, and that the trophy room in rock is/was the same colour as michaels now wear, blah blah. As in any other sport, trophies are what count. And one in 30 odd years doesnt exactly spell out over-achievement or dominance. Im sure someone else can tell us the exact figures, but im sure the other Big6 teams have won more than one in the last ten years. As for "improvement", well gonzaga now win their opening round more often than lose it, does this qualify them as more than average? No.

Last years team were clearly more than average, cos they won, but as a rule michaels are not. Im not having a go at you, or trying to wind you up, just saying


won it last year, runners up the year before, qf before that. michaels have been competing for 30 years- 4 finals, 1 trophy... the likes of rock, clongowes and belvo were founded in the 1800s. the cup began in the 1800s. belvo have won it once in 30 years too. i think this years zaga team which is your most avaerage for years is the only team to get past the first round in years... and they only qualified for the cup by the skin of their teeth
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