Big Move For Schools Rugby

[epaddy]

chools consider Champions League format.
Leinster Schools Senior Cup: Moves are afoot to radically alter the traditional Leinster schools senior cup in 2009 from its current knock-out format to a Heineken European Cup style 16-team competition divided into four seeded groups. Gavin Cummiskey reports reports
If adopted, the top two schools in each group would qualify for the quarter-finals with the bottom two redirected to the Vinnie Murray Cup, which would remain as the second tier competition.
With the best players in the cup annually drafted into the Leinster Academy and, in some cases, signed by English clubs, the traditional winner-takes-all system has been identified as counter-productive to the development of Ireland's rugby talent.
The newly proposed structure would allow players from every school increased scope to showcase and develop their abilities in a highly pressurised environment. Setanta Sports wouldn't be complaining either as they enter their third season of coverage.
A new cup format would not be exclusive to 16 schools as pre-Christmas league competitions would still provide qualifiers. The increased number of games - each school would be guaranteed a minimum four games and a maximum of six - means games could start earlier in January with teams playing one group match per week to ensure a conclusion around the traditional St Patrick's Day date.
For this to become a reality a simple majority is required at next May's Leinster schools AGM. The likelihood is a sub-committee would be appointed and if their recommendations are adopted the re-structure can come into affect next year.
Ultimately, the final decision is down to the schools.
The notion was floated at the 2007 AGM but never went to a vote.
Most of the elite six schools who traditionally dominate the cup and the Leinster schools committee are expected to support the initiative, with potential opposition coming from weaker or middle-tier schools. However, the opportunity of several high profile games must appeal to young players with aspirations of entering the professional ranks.
The redeveloped Donnybrook stadium and availability of the RDS ensures the Leinster Branch have the infrastructure to stage an enlarged version of their flagship tournament, which doubles as the primary breeding ground for the professional ranks.
Of the current home-grown Leinster players, only Shane Horgan didn't progress from the schools system.
Meanwhile, captains from previous SCT winning teams will be guests of honour at the first cup match between Terenure College and Belvedere College on January 27th. The match marks the official opening of the new 2,500 capacity Donnybrook stand. The redeveloped ground now holds 8,000.
Former captains invited to attend who have represented Ireland include Lions tourist Niall Brophy (Blackrock, 1954), Noel Turley (Blackrock, 1955), Mick Quinn (Newbridge, 1970), Harry Harbison (Blackrock, 1975), Hugo MacNeill (Blackrock, 1977), Brendan Mullin (Blackrock, 1982) and Brian Glennon (DLSP, 1985). In the case of deceased captains - the competition began in 1887 - a representative from the school or family will be invited to attend.
While work at Donnybrook remains on schedule, the senior final will still take place at the RDS Showgrounds as the 18,500 capacity is required to meet demand.
(c) 2008, The Irish Times.

Quite positive imo. Still keeping the romance of the knockout stages(making it bigger in fact). While giving more competitive game time.

[Uncle Mort]

If qualificiation for the group stage was by merit for all schools and not by historical right, meaning there may be years when (for instance) Blackrock don't qualify then this is fantastic news.

I like this bit particularly "the traditional winner-takes-all system has been identified as counter-productive to the development of Ireland's rugby talent." - this is the sort of thing I've been saying for years.

All we need to do now is to somehow raise the profile of those 000s of young players who go to clubs and not schools and we'll be nearly there.

One final thing however - the RDS should not be made available for the schools - this should remain the sole home of Leinster Rugby - i.e. the professional team - the schools can have DB and anywhere else.

[epaddy]

One final thing however - the RDS should not be made available for the schools - this should remain the sole home of Leinster Rugby - i.e. the professional team - the schools can have DB and anywhere else.

Why?

[Uncle Mort]

One final thing however - the RDS should not be made available for the schools - this should remain the sole home of Leinster Rugby - i.e. the professional team - the schools can have DB and anywhere else.

Why?

So we have a pitch available to professional rugby players that is not over used. The best players deserve the best conditions - and this is not something we owe only to our players but we owe it to our visitors too. As a professional set up we should provide our visitors with as near pristine conditions as we can.

[Grumpy Old Man]

One final thing however - the RDS should not be made available for the schools - this should remain the sole home of Leinster Rugby - i.e. the professional team - the schools can have DB and anywhere else.

Why?

So we have a pitch available to professional rugby players that is not over used. The best players deserve the best conditions - and this is not something we owe only to our players but we owe it to our visitors too. As a professional set up we should provide our visitors with as near pristine conditions as we can.

So rugby teams and soccer teams shouldn't ground share in the UK then?

[epaddy]

One final thing however - the RDS should not be made available for the schools - this should remain the sole home of Leinster Rugby - i.e. the professional team - the schools can have DB and anywhere else.

Why?

So we have a pitch available to professional rugby players that is not over used. The best players deserve the best conditions - and this is not something we owe only to our players but we owe it to our visitors too. As a professional set up we should provide our visitors with as near pristine conditions as we can.

If the ptich can not stay in excellent with more then 13 games a year, then its a cr@p pitch. Which of course its not, the RDS have invested heavily in the pitch.. Leinster should be making as much money as possible. No need to handicap ourselves by putting games in smaller venues.

[sarah_lennon]

So rugby teams and soccer teams shouldn't ground share in the UK then?

Probably not.

However I think the RDS pitch is better placed to hold extra games than the Brook. The Brook pitch seemed wrecked after two/three games a season and there was of course a lot more rugby played on it anyway.

[the spoofer]

Of the current home-grown Leinster players, only Shane Horgan didn't progress from the schools system.


Correct, but of the Irish U20's last year, 5 (i think) did not go through the traditional schools. (Wynne spent one year with 'Rock)

[true blue 06]

One final thing however - the RDS should not be made available for the schools - this should remain the sole home of Leinster Rugby - i.e. the professional team - the schools can have DB and anywhere else.

Why?

there is only one game in RDS, thats 70 mins of rugby, its hardly going to ruin the pitch and it would be stupid to put the final in donnybrook when demand is so great. they often play club rugby in the rds, including u20s games and of course soccer matches

[jrc]

This sounds like a great idea. And obviously, the final should be played in the RDS, and then Lansdowne Road when it's finished. Why play a game that traditionally attracts upwards of 20,000 people in a ground that only holds 8,000?

[Duff Paddy]

the schools can have DB and anywhere else.

You realise that the schools have been playing the semi-finals and finals of the cup in Lansdowne for donkey's years? The home of the international team, though I wouldn't be surprised if you thought that Leinster was more important than Ireland. The soccer team plays there too. And the odd Destiny's Child concert. No horse shows as of yet though.

Whether you like it or not, schools rugby is massively popular in this country and it has grown fantastically in recent years. There structures weren't perfect, and I personally welcome a lot of these changes to the schools rugby structures, but the fact remains that the schools are best positioned to develop young rugby talent in this country. The clubs just can't offer the same exposure to rugby - at the top level there is training 5 or 6 times a week, weights sessions at 7.30am before classes, pre-season tours abroad, a meaningful competition to play in, professional level facilities and professional level approach to preparation - they put many AIL teams to shame.

[combatlogo]

One final thing however - the RDS should not be made available for the schools - this should remain the sole home of Leinster Rugby - i.e. the professional team - the schools can have DB and anywhere else.

Why?

So we have a pitch available to professional rugby players that is not over used. The best players deserve the best conditions - and this is not something we owe only to our players but we owe it to our visitors too. As a professional set up we should provide our visitors with as near pristine conditions as we can.

You are aware that Lansdowne FC's current home is the RDS?

No problems with the SCT final being played there, the problem with the Brook was that JCT first round games would get played there.

[groundhog]

but the fact remains that the schools are best positioned to develop young rugby talent in this country. The clubs just can't offer the same exposure to rugby

But should they be, they have failed Irish rugby only 1 Grand Slam is testament to that. People need to realise that if you keep doing things the way you have always done things you will keep getting the results you have always got.

The Schools net is still too small, take Kildare as an example...population approaching 150K yet has only 2 traditional rugby playing schools and since the boarders are gone Newbridge have gone backwards although next years SCT could be one to watch out for. Conversely Naas CBS traditionally a non-rugby playing school backed by Naas RFC though have made excellent progress and in Dan O'Byrne you could be looking at a future Leinster Pro. Schools rugby is changing but it's not changing quick enough, the new change is a definite step in the right direction though.

As an interesting aside I put a young fella up for a scholarship at a rugby playing school. The Leinster Elite Player Development Officer made contact and asked that I try and persuade the young fella not to take it but that a place in the Leinster Youths Squad would be better for his future development as Leinster Rugby have full control of the youths whereas Leinster Schools appoint their own coaches for representive teams, coaches who lets face it aren't as qualified as the Leinster Rugby coaches. Leinster Rugby are promoting youths quite agressively, the Shane Horgan Cup is a very good initiative and widens the net even more.

Progress is been made but as someone who coaches I find it easier to coach a talented youth than a talented school boy as the youth is less afraid to try something new whereas the school boy whose previous coaching has all be very structured and very disciplined almost rugby by numbers is less open to new ideas. But there is a massive skills gap between a lad who has SCT and a lad who has played u18, generally the u18 would have had to play representative youths to be on the same standing skills wise as the SCT player.

I suppose my point is without the tangents is that The Schools and Youths are both heading in the right direction so hopefully the next generation will start to deliver as 1 Grand Slam is a god awful return....

[bunty85]

This could be brilliant for the tournament and allow more middle tier schools to win the cup. I hope they organise the qualifing system properly though, they must allow the Section A schools a root to the cup. The league structure should be reformed though with maybe 5 automatic Section B schools through to the cup proper, based on Jct and previous years results, with the four other places up for grabs in the league.

I think they will have to play games pre christmas though, I just dont see it as feasible to fit 6 games in between Jan to Paddys day bearing in mind weather and the 7 day rule.

Just for arguments sake who would be the 16 schools at the moment who deserve a place in this competition based on history and recent years. The 7 Section C schools obviousely(although how Castleknock are in this group baffles me), Gonzaga, Pres Bray, CBC Monkstown, Newbridge, Kilkenny and Roscrea. That would be 13, as for the rest its a toss up really.

[rex banner]

I think that the expanded format will be good for the devolopment of the schools game. It could unearth some gems from some of the less glamourous rugby schools to exhibit what they can do, where in previous years they could have gotten Rock in the first round and then be out.

[Duff Paddy]

but the fact remains that the schools are best positioned to develop young rugby talent in this country. The clubs just can't offer the same exposure to rugby

But should they be, they have failed Irish rugby only 1 Grand Slam is testament to that.

That makes no sense in the context of what I said. Good post otherwise.

[Sea_point]

Of the current home-grown Leinster players, only Shane Horgan didn't progress from the schools system.


Correct, but of the Irish U20's last year, 5 (i think) did not go through the traditional schools. (Wynne spent one year with 'Rock)

Yeah, but the season before 2003-04 he was a Connacht Senior Schools Cup winner at Out-half with St Saran's who beat Sligo Grammar in the final. He also played with Buccs youths as well..

http://www.irishrugby.ie/6855_3460.php

[RoscoBosco]

Have they scrapped this or is it starting next year?

[lebowski]

No matter how interesting a proposal it is, it will not happen. The beauty of the cup is that on any given day any team can win (Kilkenny beating Blackrock etc). The current system allows for teams that do not qualify from the league a chance of cup success by qualifying from the Vinnie Murray. St Gerards and Newbridge have reached the semi final of the cup from the Vinnie Murray. The tradition of the cup, no matter how unlikely it might be, is that any school from a development cup team right up to Blackrock has a passage to play on St Patrick's Day

By having the league as the only entry point to the cup would be disastrous and unfair. In some years, 5 or 6 of the league teams are stronger than 2 or 3 of the automatic qualifiers, yet under the proposed system, some league teams will not be allowed to compete. It would also take all the Section A schools out of the system. Also, how can you seed the teams. In any year, what basis are the seeds decided on. I would argue that CBC (even with this years result) are a stronger outfit than Castleknock and Gonzaga at senior level, yet would not be seeded above them currently.

Also, rather than give the league teams a better chance of winning, it would greatly reduce their chances. These schools have much smaller squads, and by playing 3 matches to get to a quarter final, they are much more likely to pick up injuries. We all know that the big schools have much greater debth in quality to manage these injuries. Kilkenny and St Gerards would not have reached the semis under this propsed system. They may beat a big gun one week, but that big gun would not be out. It is very easy to see why the big schools might be in favour of this, as they are all pretty much guaranteeing their safe passage to the quarters

Finally could you imagine the scenario in the likes of St Andrews, High School, KH, Wesley and Kilkenny who all play hockey. If these schools didn't make the top 16 for 2 or 3 years it would kill rugby in the school as they would be fighting for a second teir medal in rugby and a Leinster top teir medal in hockey. It is easy to see what the more attractive option as a sport would be.

The solution is to follow the Munster model to get a more even draw, with each team getting a guaranteed second match, where the draw is reset after the first round of matches with a winner playing a loser from the first set of matches, possibly on a home/away basis.

[Sea_point]

Disagree, it's not unfair. For schools outside the top six to improve they need more exposure to Blackrock, Nure etc on a regular basis. Outside of the Senior Cup the big six can and do schedule fixtures against the best schools outside the province and Ireland. It may take a couple of seasons for the weaker schools to catch up but with exposure to better teams they won't get a false sense of their strength that they do currently from participating in the league denuded by the loss of Rock, Nure and Clongowes etc...