Gonzaga forced to withdraw from Senior League

[simonno6]

Gonzaga juniors remain in the league

[jaybyrne]

columbas are in the senior league next year

[simonno6]

columbas are in the senior league next year

Amazing what one player from one year can do to a team...

[bluewave]

The obvious thing to do would be to force Castleknock to play in the league. They have not been able to compete with the Gonzagas, CBCs and Pres Brays over the last 5 years.

castleknock cup record
03- 08

03 beat high school, narrow defeat to terenue eventual champions in qf
04 first round loss to roscrea
05 as above
06 beat cbc monkstown by 30 points or therabouts, defeated by marys by possibly greatest schoolboy try i have ever seen in injury time
07 narrow loss to terenure in 1st round
08 beaten heavily by marys in 1st round(poorest side in years)

castleknock were also in senior cup semi finals in 01 and 02.
castleknock should also have won junior cup in 02 but lost in final in 7th minute of injury time.

castleknock senior cups 8
cbc 1
pres bray 1
gonzaga 0

castleknock have not played gonzaga in the cup in at least 20 years if memory serves me correctly. havent played pres since 02 when wiped the floor with them and did the same with monkstown in 06. So id like you to demonstrate as to how castleknock has not been able to "compete" with the above mentioned schools

I think i have served to illustrate if nothing else the absurdity of your comments

[simonno6]

we did beat them in the junior cup in 03 though thanks to a last minute try - collins was superb that day, almost brought it home for them

[bunty85]

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[thebigcheese]

castleknock have not played gonzaga in the cup in at least 20 years if memory serves me correctly. havent played pres since 02 when wiped the floor with them and did the same with monkstown in 06. So id like you to demonstrate as to how castleknock has not been able to "compete" with the above mentioned schools

I think i have served to illustrate if nothing else the absurdity of your comments

That is ridiculous. You can only beat a team in the cup if you draw them and in Castleknocks case in recent years you'd have to draw them in the first round to beat them. I would guess that Castleknock's friendly record over CBC, Gonzaga, Pres Bray and Roscrea over the past 5 years isn't very impressive. Nobody considers them one of the big schools anymore.

Expect Gonzaga, Newbridge and Pres Bray to be the most likely middle ranking schools to challenge the big schools next year if the 06 JC is any form guide to go by.

[bluewave]

You said it yourself you have to be able to draw a team to beat them, when was last time castleknock played gonzaga in senior cup? if ever?,roscrea admittedly have been a bogey team in last few years, when was last time cbc beat knock in the senior cup, senior cup final 1976 would be a fair guess, pres bray last beat knock in early 90s. castleknock's only cup meeting with kilkenny was in 1998 when kk were beaten convincingly knock also played kk league final in 01 . Castleknock have not been beaten in the senior cup by any of the teams mentioned with the exception of roscrea since 1993. With the exception of roscreas run to the final in 00 and monkstowns win over michaels last year and kilkennys victories over marys in 00 and rock in 07 none of these schools have done anything but beat each other to reach a quarter final and have not beaten castleknock in the cup in recent past.

saying so and so is a bigger school because they reached a quater final by beating a vinny murray qualifier and castleknock losing in first round to marys or terenure doesn't add up.

as for castleknocks entry to the league, castleknock requested to enter the league at own request in 1994 to play some competitive games pre cup. Knock won it in 94 and 95 before being asked not to enter . knock then reapplied to enter league in 2001 and won competition again. knock pretty much put out seconds for competition in 02 and went on to reach semi final of senior cup the same year. In 03 posted 40 points plus victories over cbc and pres bray, team was caught cold by high school in semi final and went on to beat them comfortably in cup. So there you have it entered senior league 5 times won competition 3 times. entered junior league twice won it once lost in final on other occasion.

The difference between castleknock and all other schools ranking below them is that albeit it has been quite some time since castleknock last won the cup in 1965, castleknock has an illustrious past in the competition having won the cup eight times, knock have also competed in the most cup finals with the exception of blackrock.Historically, knock is a powerhouse of the competition that is why castleknock is part of the big 7 having said that, castleknock has warranted it inclusion in senior cup with its past league performances and performances against schools ranking below it.

The last two senior teams have been very poor but schools go through cycles and castleknock will be alot stronger in next few years if performances of underage teams are to carry through to senior level.I have not gone too long out of knock and seniors didnt play gonzaga in my time there, castleknock would have beaten the monkstowns, pres brays and newbridge of this world consistently. Having said that I couldnt tell you how seniors have fared against these schools in last two years. Underperforming for two years is hardly the sign of the decline of a school...

castleknocks incoming 6th years lost to rock in semi final of 06 jc beating michaels and terenure on route and have about 5 players who will be playing in there 3rd cup campaign. Added to this andy kenny the man who led belvo to first senior cup in 30 years is in charge of seniors.So watch this space

[thebigcheese]

Changes to the leagues that would reflect recent reality and not historical nonscence

Senior League
Templeogue, Wesley and High School and De La Salle drop down to section A
to be replaced by:
Castleknock and St Columbus

Junior League
Templeogue, Wesley and High School drop to Section A
to be replaced by
St Mary's
Castleknock
Clongowes (traditionally poor at JCT level despite last years success)
Naas CBS

Gonzaga to be "promoted" - bar last year they have had incredible success in the Junior league

This would result in a much stronger league fulfilling its original function of preparing middle ranking schools for the cup through tough competition. Obviously, KH, Pres Bray, Kilkenny etc would find it more difficult to win it but it would give them meaningfull games especially at senior level where some of the big schools won't play 1st teams against them. This doesn't really happen at junior level, leading to final and semi appearances from CBC, Pres, Gonzaga and Roscrea over the past 5 years. It would also lead to a more credible Section A with teams like Mount Temple and Newpark getting better quality games.

Obviously this will never happen but it would be a more realistic guide to where teams stand.

[bunty85]

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[bluewave]

Firstly, you quote knock beating a "young and experimental" cbc side in 06, your talking complete BS and you know it, its CBCs decision as to what side they put out in the cup and knock put 30 points unanswered on them if i'm correct. You talk about the strength of CBC and other league sides yet on last occasion met one of them in cup knock annihilated them.don't try and hide behind CBC having a young side in 06 Its CBC decision as to what side they field and that side represents that school on the day.

I dont know much about high schools recent sides but there sides in 01 02 and 03 were decent teams, I know I played against them all.

Roscrea as I have said have been Knocks bogey team and are the only school outside Marys, Nure, Belvo, and Rock to have knocked Knock out of Cup since 1992.Many a team has come unstuck playing Roscrea in Portlaoise. Castleknock are the only side ranking above them they have beaten since 2000.

Gonzaga have never reached a senior cup semi final I believe, fair dues they have beaten schools above them in JC yet have also been on receiving end of one of biggest defeats in a Junior Cup final while im pretty sure the 06 cup draw had all of 7 schools with automatic qualification in one half which they were not in. Im open to correction but Gonzaga have not beaten any of automatic qualifiers in last 15 years at senior cup level at least.

For all your talk abot how great sides below Knock are they have failed to beat sides above them consistently and until they do otherwise they will remain mid ranking schools.

In terms of whos done what in terms of beating schools ranked above them. in last 10ish years

Gerards beat a woeful Nure side in 05 (just about) to reach a semi.
Monkstown side last year were an excellent side but crashed to marys in semh years.
Newbridge have not beat an automatic qualifier at senior since there last appearance in senior cup final in 96.
Kilkenny have beaten Rock and Marys in last 8 years.
Pres Bray beat a Belvo side in late 90s as far as I remember.
Gonzaga have not beaten any side ranked above them in recent past, if ever.
Roscrea have beaten Knock three times on last three occasions have played in cup other than that the school has not beaten other automatic qualifiers.
IMO Kilkenny and Roscrea given there student population and playing numbers can be regarded as best of league teams in terms of performance in senior cup.

Consistency is the Key here and unless these schools achieve this they will remain mid ranking schools. I accept Roscrea have consistenly beaten Knock in cup in recent times but no other school has done this.

You paraphrase and ignore comments I have made without responding to facts which
illustrate as to why Knock are an automatic qualifier.

*Dominated league in years entered competition
*Roscrea are the only school ranked below it to beat Knock since 1992, Knock have beaten every other school ranked below it since date mentioned above.

As for your comparison to football and senior cup rugby, heres a few similar comparisons to mull over....

Cardiff,Southampton and MIllwall have all played in FA cup finals in recent years does this make them big clubs?

Liverpool have not won Chapionship since 1990 does this make them a small club?

As for a further comparison, the famous chant about Chelsea being a sh!t club with no history can easily be compared to League schools. Michaels are the only side to have won cup outside of previous cup winning schools since Churchtown in 1983 and 81.And prior to that it was CBC in 1976 for there sole cup victory albeit over Knock

Castleknock has its history which nobody can take away from when the league sides you are mentioning are winning cups and consistently beating Castleknock then I would make no qualms about Knock not being an automatic qualifier so until then I suggest you refrain from making any other unfounded and ridicules statements regarding Castleknock.

P.S. As for the previous posters suggestion as to restructuring of Junior League with Gonzaga being promoted at the expense of Castleknock, Marys and last years winners Clongowes due to their success in the competition in the past is farcical and to suggest such an adjustment is a joke.

[bunty85]

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[bluewave]

Some basic maths for you something you seem to be lacking out monkstown way , two wins in last six year period over high school and CBC. Two losses against Roscrea. having 'mulled' that over and done the various calculations,in last six years, Knock have drawn Terenure and Marys in first round, Roscrea twice and have progressed to qf to lose against marys and terenure. Im pretty sure its safe to say knock have not lost more games against league schools in last six years than they have won.Indeed they have only lost to one league school roscrea since 1992.

What has CBCs cup form been for last six years ? (Im not trying to be smart im looking for games won and results) Michaels win last year, defeat to knock in 06 and being beaten by marys in 03 is what i know of.

It pains me to say it but I accept the fact that other schools have outperformed knock in last six years on the basis of beating schools ranked above them, kk beating rock, cbcs win over michaels and even gerards win over nure while roscrea beat knock twice.

I alluded to it in my previous post, but until league schools consistently beat sides ranked above them come cup time the status quo will remain because with the exception of roscrea all other schools wins have been a flash in the pan.(in the case of CBC they have to deliver next year to prove they are anything other than others sides who have won big in a one off before returning to previous form)

I accept the fact kk have beaten rock and marys, cbc beat michaels, gerards beat nure,and pres beat belvo in late 1990s. All of these wins are great achievements for all involved but these schools have failed to continue to maintain this consistency of beating higher ranked schools to justify there promotion by doing so in the following years (in CBCs case next year will be there chance to prove me wrong).

Castleknock have to go back to 1995 (when reached a semi final for 2nd year in a row and won second back to back league) since we have beaten another automatic qualifier when beat nure but since then has played in the following games

96 and 97 first round defeat to belvo
98 beat wesley,kk, missed penalty to win qf against marys,(missed a penalty to win it too)
99 beat wilsons and KH lost against roscrea, gavin duffy was amazing that year
00 beat high school lost to terenure(a side which should have won the cup against clongowes in final)
01 beat gerards,high school, CBC,lost to rock in semi final
02 beat pres bray, gerards, lost semi final to marys(champions)
03 beat high school, lost qf to terenure(champions)
04 first round loss to roscrea
05 as above
06 beat CBC , lost in injury time to marys, (team choked tbh as monkstowns side did in 08)
07 lost to terenure round one
08 lost to marys round one

played league sides 15 times, won 12 lost 3. Castleknock have consistently beaten league sides in cup which is why I have taken my position in regards to this Castleknock league talk, I accept the fact that knock have not beaten a higher ranking school in quite some time indeed I openly brought up this fact, yet if we are to go back over all of other league sides records in last 10 years they might have beat one bigger school than themselves in same period (if even) or in the case of kk twice.

Before you go off on one about CBC playing in more QF in last six years and (if that is the case?i don't know) and demanding change. what is cup record of CBC in last 10 years?did they beat belvo in late 90s too?

one of the initial posts on this thread was about people cribbing about castleknocks automatic qualification. gonzaga have been successful in senior league when castleknock have not been part of competition .fact; Knock has not lost to a school ranking below them with the exception of roscrea since 1992. Had people been putting forward roscrea become an automatic qualifier at the expense of knock I would have little to argue with as facts dont lie seeing as how they have been the best of the rest in terms of progressing in competition by reaching a final in 1999 this dates back to 1985 when churchtown won the competition and includes knock.

What have Gonzaga achieved in their entire schools cup rugby history at senior level? They have not beaten a single side ranking above them to the best of my knowledge and have certainly not done so in recent past if im wrong. If the initial argument was based on the fact that roscrea were agitating for automatic qualification I probably would not have even become involved in this thread as they have consistently beaten knock in last 10 years playing 3 and winning 3 as well as reaching a cup final in 99. Yet Gonzaga have not beaten anyone above them in cup with their only consistency lying in their undoubted talents being that of succeeding in the senior league when knock have not been part of competition,chess and choir wheras knock have as i have previously mentioned not lost to any league school since 1992 with the exception of roscrea.

[bunty85]

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[blaker]

Marys have been in 3 SCT finals (winning one) in the past 6 years.