BOD 2nd Greatest Irish Sportsmen Ever

[Sauvignon Blank]

Harrington is a WINNER. We should celebrate this and not look for holes in his achievements or my argument. He is thoroughly respected by his peers for his achievements, and that Mr grumpy is the ultimate accolade

Just as Sonia is a winner and we should celebrate this and not look for holes in her achievements.

BW, I admired her for many years (her running that is) and she filled me with a sense of pride when I saw her winning her medals (just as evry Irish sportstar does)but even you can admit her story, when told to future generations will fall a tad short of what it could have been. She knows deep down she couldn't find that extra bit of whatever to get her over the line in the Olympics. And that will never go away or change. It is something she will have to learn to accept.

I believe what was missing was the low moral fibre required to cheat.

The story falling short will depend entirely on the story teller.[/quote]

Absolutely, and for this willingness to not resort to drugs for a medal she is to be lauded and indeed revered, no question. It is a damn shame others in her sport don't follow suit.

[Sauvignon Blank]

[quote="Sauvignon Blank.

I'm not saying Harrington isn't a great Irish sportsman. I'm just saying that I would rank Sonia higher than him in the roll of great Irish sportpeople.

No doubt my opinion is coloured by my family's background in athletics just as yours is by your golfing background. Obviously the only way to resolve this is to bring back the Milk Superstars.

And I totally respect your opinion on O'Sullivan but do her peers hold her in such esteem? Do they rate her... privately or publically? Surely this is the ultimate accolade for a sporting figure as it is they who know what it takes to be a champion: The sacrifices, pain, denial, regimental focus and discipline.[/quote]
In 2008 Sonia was appointed team manager of the Australian team for the 2008 IAAF World Cross County Championships.
Would this not be a sensible logistical decision as she was residing in that country? Why was she not manager for 5,000m and 10,000m teams? the disciplines she ran.

She is Chef de Mission for Ireland's Olympic team for 2012. In 2004 she was named Ireland's greatest living sports person. I think that shows the esteem within which her peers hold her.[/quote]
Fair enough. But what about Athletes like Johnson, Radcliffe, Coe, Ovett, Walker, Gebraselaisse,Mosesd Kiptanui(Kenyan lad)Bolt etc what are their opinions on her as a runner? I dont know as Im not into athletics that much, but it would be interesting to see what their opinions are.

[Grumpy Old Man]

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Thats what sets the Harringtons, Woods,Nicklauses, Hogans,Palmers, Watsons, Ballesteros, Faldos, Singhs, Sneads etc apart.
If you really want some perspective on Harringtons feats, just look at the company he is in as mentioned above. The true legendary greats in their field.
And whats more.......hes Irish.

Horseshit. He's in the same category as Singh, Els, Norman and Goosen, all of whom have won three majors AFAIK. You might want to revise this statement, because thats ..as you say, horseshit. Norman 2 majors. Goosen 2 majors
When he wins 5 majors you can bump him up to seves level, six he can join Faldo etc. All the more remarkable considering Faldo and seve taking up the game when they were practically infants. Harrington was a late comer and wasn't even regarded as particularly brilliant as an Amateur. His handicap was +1, Paul McGinley was +4, go figure. The resources at Faldo's disposal to tap into were immense. But then again you probably knew this

It should also be noted that he won two of his majors when the dominant player in the world wasn't competing.
Oh please, do me a favour. Woods has gone on record as saying Harringtons back 9s in Birkdale and Oakland Hills were 'the best back nines of golf to win a major he has ever witnessed' Woods 2009. I think i'll go with woods on this one Grumpy.

I have great admiration for the guy. But he is not at the level you are putting him at,

No but then again are you typically full of the Irish sense of begrudgery that unfortunately pervades this nation? Harrington is a WINNER. We should celebrate this and not look for holes in his achievements or my argument. He is thoroughly respected by his peers for his achievements, and that Mr grumpy is the ultimate accolade

I'll give you Goosen & Norman but it doesn't change my basic point, he's at the level of those who have won the same number of majors as he has. Not at the level of those who have won twice as many.

I don't understand your point on Faldo. he had no great resources growing up as a child. He had the courage to totally change his game after a few years as a professional (as did PH) But Faldo won six majors, Harrington is only half way there.

You still believe everything Woods says? Not even his wife does that From the top of my head I'd offer Faldo at Augusta in 1996 or the Watson Nicklaus duel in Turnberry 1977

And if you read my post, my criticism is not of Harrington as a player or individual but of your contention that he is the supreme Irish sportsman and that he is up there with Woods, Nicklaus et al.

[Sauvignon Blank]

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Thats what sets the Harringtons, Woods,Nicklauses, Hogans,Palmers, Watsons, Ballesteros, Faldos, Singhs, Sneads etc apart.
If you really want some perspective on Harringtons feats, just look at the company he is in as mentioned above. The true legendary greats in their field.
And whats more.......hes Irish.

Horseshit. He's in the same category as Singh, Els, Norman and Goosen, all of whom have won three majors AFAIK. You might want to revise this statement, because thats ..as you say, horseshit. Norman 2 majors. Goosen 2 majors
When he wins 5 majors you can bump him up to seves level, six he can join Faldo etc. All the more remarkable considering Faldo and seve taking up the game when they were practically infants. Harrington was a late comer and wasn't even regarded as particularly brilliant as an Amateur. His handicap was +1, Paul McGinley was +4, go figure. The resources at Faldo's disposal to tap into were immense. But then again you probably knew this

It should also be noted that he won two of his majors when the dominant player in the world wasn't competing.
Oh please, do me a favour. Woods has gone on record as saying Harringtons back 9s in Birkdale and Oakland Hills were 'the best back nines of golf to win a major he has ever witnessed' Woods 2009. I think i'll go with woods on this one Grumpy.

I have great admiration for the guy. But he is not at the level you are putting him at,

No but then again are you typically full of the Irish sense of begrudgery that unfortunately pervades this nation? Harrington is a WINNER. We should celebrate this and not look for holes in his achievements or my argument. He is thoroughly respected by his peers for his achievements, and that Mr grumpy is the ultimate accolade

I'll give you Goosen & Norman but it doesn't change my basic point, he's at the level of those who have won the same number of majors as he has. Not at the level of those who have won twice as many.

I don't understand your point on Faldo. he had no great resources growing up as a child. Golf and access to it was a hell of a lot easier in the UK than it was in Ireland.
He had the courage to totally change his game after a few years as a professional (as did PH) But Faldo won six majors, Harrington is only half way there. He is and he has an awful lot of superior opposition to contend with nowadays
You still believe everything Woods says? Not even his wife does that On golfing matters he is a prophet on moral matters he's a Bum


From the top of my head I'd offer Faldo at Augusta in 1996 or the Watson Nicklaus duel in Turnberry 1977
interesting choice. Faldo at augusta was similar in ways to Harrington at Carnoustie. However Norman simply couldn't buy a putt that day, thats what lost it for him and Faldo posting birdies and pars early on. Norman shot a 64 that week followed I think by a 68, unheard of then at Augusta. Faldo simply shot a couple under that day, nothing spectacular just solid golf.
The 'Duel in the Sun' 1977 was indeed an epic. Nicklaus had a chance on 18 but misssed his putt. He turned to Watson shook his hand and said 'Tom I gave you my best shot today but couldn't beat you, congragulations youre the Champion golfer for the year'. Class.


And if you read my post, my criticism is not of Harrington as a player or individual but of your contention that he is the supreme Irish sportsman and that he is up there with Woods, Nicklaus et al.[/quote]

He is the supreme Irish sportsprson. My opinion, that is all.

[Grumpy Old Man]

]

Horseshit. He's in the same category as Singh, Els, Norman and Goosen, all of whom have won three majors AFAIK. You might want to revise this statement, because thats ..as you say, horseshit. Norman 2 majors. Goosen 2 majors
When he wins 5 majors you can bump him up to seves level, six he can join Faldo etc. All the more remarkable considering Faldo and seve taking up the game when they were practically infants. Harrington was a late comer and wasn't even regarded as particularly brilliant as an Amateur. His handicap was +1, Paul McGinley was +4, go figure. The resources at Faldo's disposal to tap into were immense. But then again you probably knew this

It should also be noted that he won two of his majors when the dominant player in the world wasn't competing.
Oh please, do me a favour. Woods has gone on record as saying Harringtons back 9s in Birkdale and Oakland Hills were 'the best back nines of golf to win a major he has ever witnessed' Woods 2009. I think i'll go with woods on this one Grumpy.

I have great admiration for the guy. But he is not at the level you are putting him at,

No but then again are you typically full of the Irish sense of begrudgery that unfortunately pervades this nation? Harrington is a WINNER. We should celebrate this and not look for holes in his achievements or my argument. He is thoroughly respected by his peers for his achievements, and that Mr grumpy is the ultimate accolade

I'll give you Goosen & Norman but it doesn't change my basic point, he's at the level of those who have won the same number of majors as he has. Not at the level of those who have won twice as many.

I don't understand your point on Faldo. he had no great resources growing up as a child. Golf and access to it was a hell of a lot easier in the UK than it was in Ireland.
He had the courage to totally change his game after a few years as a professional (as did PH) But Faldo won six majors, Harrington is only half way there. He is and he has an awful lot of superior opposition to contend with nowadays
You still believe everything Woods says? Not even his wife does that On golfing matters he is a prophet on moral matters he's a Bum


From the top of my head I'd offer Faldo at Augusta in 1996 or the Watson Nicklaus duel in Turnberry 1977
interesting choice. Faldo at augusta was similar in ways to Harrington at Carnoustie. However Norman simply couldn't buy a putt that day, thats what lost it for him and Faldo posting an incredible early score. Norman shot a 64 that week followed I think by a 68, unheard of then at Augusta. Faldo simply shot a couple under that day, nothing spectacular just solid golf.
The 'Duel in the Sun' 1977 was indeed an epic. Nicklaus had a chance on 18 but misssed his putt. He turned to Watson shook his hand and said 'Tom I gave you my best shot today but couldn't beat you, congragulations youre the Champion golfer for the year'. Class.


And if you read my post, my criticism is not of Harrington as a player or individual but of your contention that he is the supreme Irish sportsman and that he is up there with Woods, Nicklaus et al.

Don't want to turn this into a pissing contest but

(1) Your point about access to golf between 1970s Milton Keynes and 1980s South Dublin just does not hold water.
(2) Faldo shot a 67, the best round of the day, to beat Norman (his playing partner) into the ground in 96. He applied massive pressure and Norman, already fragile, cracked. It was a hell of a lot better then "nothing spectacular, just solid golf"
(3) Your contention that Harrington is up against better opposition then Faldo was is an interesting one and was one that used by Nicklaus fans to denigrate Woods. Nicklaus had to contend with (among others) Palmer, Trevino, Watson & Player when they were at their peak, Faldo was part of a magnificent European era with Seve, Olle, Bernard Langer, Ian Woosenam & Sandy Lyle all winning majors, he also had to contend with Curtis Strange, Payne Stewart, Greg Norman & Nick Price. Woods has had to deal with Els, Mickleson, Goosen, Cabrera, Singh & Harrington while Harrington has had to deal with Woods, Mickleson and Cabrera (as you have probably guessed, I'm sticking to major multiple winners at their peaks except Woosie) so I don't know if I'd accept that argument either.

But such is the fun of sport. And still no-one mentions Pat O'Callaghan who won gold medals in two Olympics! Or Kevin O'Flannagan, who represented Ireland in both rugby & soccer.

[munster11]

Yeah, I don't want to get into a pissing contest either lads. Sauvignon, you attack me for knowing nothing about golf. I can play a bit too thanks! And I watch it avidly. You can keep your Rich Beem autobiography though I was just injecting a bit of balance into this. If you say Sonia threw it away in 2000, I'd say Sergio threw it away in 2007. You see, balance. But I accept that Harrington was mentally stronger on this occasion and there wasn't a happier Irishman than me on that occasion. I already told you that I believe Harrington to be a worthy winner of that list. He is a legend and his achievements as an Irishman will probably never be matched. I never said anything different.

What I did say is that Sonia had only a couple of chances to win an Olympic Gold as opposed to Harrington's majors. Yes, Harrington broke through the door after making small strides along the way but Sonia broke down many doors along the way too only to be undone on the day (despite an unbelievable 14:41) by a highly questionable athlete. Unlike Harrington, she didn't get 37 chances to win an Olympic Gold. It is not fair to compare Sonia's Olympic attempts with Padraig's major attempts. World Championship fields are often better than Olympic fields but you only have a 15 minute period every 4 yrs to win an Olympic Gold and Sonia's failure to win one doesn't sully her other achievements in my book.

To my mind, an outdoor World Athletic Championship Gold is the equal of a Golf major. Is Ronnie Delany better than Sonia because he won one Olympic Gold and nothing else? Olympic Golds cannot be absolutely EVERYTHING in athletics. You say that golf is a sport that is impossible to master. Tell me about it! But athletics is not?!!! You describe Golf as a tougher, more exacting game to master. I cannot agree with this. I have hit a few decent golf shots but I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like to run a sub 14:45 5K. Not in my wildest dreams! Every man, woman and child runs. What % of the world ever had the opportunity to play golf? Again, I'm not downplaying Harrington's achievements. But you have to balance this!

PS: To insinuate that my attempt to bring balance to this debate was an example of Irish begrudgery is embarrassing, lazy and way off the mark. Again, I don't have to repeat my complete admiration for Harrington's unbelievable achievements over the course of his career. I was merely celebrating the achievements of both of these athletes and trying to work out which was better. You have said that Sonia was a bottler. If she was a bottler, she'd never have won anything in her career. Things just didn't go perfectly (as they need to do) on the couple of occasions that she lined up in an Olympic Final. A bottler, that does not make. To repeat, she didn't have the luxury of dozens of chances to win the big one like a golfer.

And I think you'll find that Sonia is held in great esteem by many of the legends of the track that you mentioned earlier. Even by Paula Radcliffe, a brilliant runner albeit one who never won any Olympic medal!

It's a healthy debate though!

[Helium54]

With the greatest of respect to Harrington, while his achievements in golf are excellent, they are in a sport with an incredibly narrow talent base.

All the top golfers that I am aware of played golf as kids. Yet most people who play golf, only take it up as adults. The access costs associated with golf are such that it is only available to a minority of kids in a minority of countries in the developed world, nevermind the developing world. As such, comparing the achievements of someone in such a sport with such a narrow talent base, to the achievements of someone in a sport with genuine global penetration is a tad ludicrous.

[Sauvignon Blank]

]

Don't want to turn this into a pissing contest but

(1) Your point about access to golf between 1970s Milton Keynes and 1980s South Dublin just does not hold water. Golf was an elitist game in this country for years. faldo was groomed from an early age. The amount of public courses in England comparable to here is scarily high. Harrington was never a prodigy...Faldo was.
(2) Faldo shot a 67, the best round of the day, to beat Norman (his playing partner) into the ground in 96. He applied massive pressure and Norman, already fragile, cracked. It was a hell of a lot better then "nothing spectacular, just solid golf". 'Nothing spectacular, just solid golf' are Faldos words. And as I play Golf myself, believe me his round was not spectacular. It was a solid under par round. The galleries around Augusta were like a vice grip in Norman that Sunday, he was under pressure to win the Masters. Everyone willed him but he couldnt putt his way to victory. His game tee to green was fine that day. That round is remembered more in golfing folklore as the Norman collapse
(3) Your contention that Harrington is up against better opposition then Faldo was is an interesting one and was one that used by Nicklaus fans to denigrate Woods. Not by me, I appreciate both their contributions. Nicklaus and Woods are so different in styles that one should only compare their records. ill happily debate thast one at a later date
Nicklaus had to contend with (among others) Palmer, Trevino, Watson & Player when they were at their peak,
Not really, Arnie was on the wane when Jack arrived. It took Nicklaus years to get joe public on his side. Arnie was the golden boy, Jack the upstart. Trevino was a fine player who in fairness got under the skin of his opponent through verbals but he was prone to flaky periods. As a technician he basically hit a low consistent horrible slice which he would not get away with now IMHO.
Faldo was part of a magnificent European era with Seve, Olle, Bernard Langer, Ian Woosenam & Sandy Lyle all winning majors, he also had to contend with Curtis Strange, One of the most overrated golfers in the history of the game
Payne Stewart, Greg Norman & Nick Price. Woods has had to deal with Els, Mickleson, Goosen, Cabrera, Singh & Harrington while Harrington has had to deal with Woods, Mickleson and Cabrera (as you have probably guessed, I'm sticking to major multiple winners at their peaks except Woosie) so I don't know if I'd accept that argument either. Not having that Im afraid. You are also leaving out 2 of the finest, purest ball strikers of the modern game David Duval and Davis Love III


But such is the fun of sport. And still no-one mentions Pat O'Callaghan who won gold medals in two Olympics! Or Kevin O'Flannagan, who represented Ireland in both rugby & soccer.

Yes indeed such is Sport, opinions 'n all that.

[Sauvignon Blank]

Yeah, I don't want to get into a pissing contest either lads. Sauvignon, you attack me for knowing nothing about golf. I can play a bit too thanks!
No Munster I did not attack you, I merely stated an opinion. Thats not an attack.

And I watch it avidly. You can keep your Rich Beem autobiography though I was just injecting a bit of balance into this. If you say Sonia threw it away in 2000, Where did I say that?

I'd say Sergio threw it away in 2007. You see, balance. But I accept that Harrington was mentally stronger on this occasion and there wasn't a happier Irishman than me on that occasion. I already told you that I believe Harrington to be a worthy winner of that list. He is a legend and his achievements as an Irishman will probably never be matched. I never said anything different.

What I did say is that Sonia had only a couple of chances to win an Olympic Gold as opposed to Harrington's majors. Yes, Harrington broke through the door after making small strides along the way but Sonia broke down many doors along the way too only to be undone on the day (despite an unbelievable 14:41) by a highly questionable athlete. Unlike Harrington, she didn't get 37 chances to win an Olympic Gold. It is not fair to compare Sonia's Olympic attempts with Padraig's major attempts. I agree, I didnt start this funnily enough
you only have a 15 minute period every 4 yrs to win an Olympic Gold and Sonia's failure to win one doesn't sully her other achievements in my book. Agreed

To my mind, an outdoor World Athletic Championship Gold is the equal of a Golf major. No it is not. Please stop this nonsense. But its your opinion so fair enough
You say that golf is a sport that is impossible to master. Tell me about it! But athletics is not?!!! You describe Golf as a tougher, more exacting game to master. I cannot agree with this. I have hit a few decent golf shots Now imagine trying to hit a pure strike one after the other for nigh on four and a half hours in front of thousands of raucous spectators. Because believe me, your best shot ever still wouldn't measure up to Major level
but I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like to run a sub 14:45 5K. Not in my wildest dreams! Every man, woman and child runs. Debatable
What % of the world ever had the opportunity to play golf? Very few, but please dont tell me Athletics is some sort of mass populative bastion of global participation that welcomes all-comers then selectively nurtures talent in some utopian wayAgain, I'm not downplaying Harrington's achievements. But you have to balance this!

PS: To insinuate that my attempt to bring balance to this debate was an example of Irish begrudgery is embarrassing, Do please illustrate where I did this on your behalf
lazy and way off the mark. Again, I don't have to repeat my complete admiration for Harrington's unbelievable achievements over the course of his career. I was merely celebrating the achievements of both of these athletes and trying to work out which was better. You have said that Sonia was a bottler. Not in such a crass manner, I merely suggested she 'lost her bottle'. Mere supposition m'laud as Rumpole would say.
If she was a bottler, she'd never have won anything in her career. Things just didn't go perfectly (as they need to do) on the couple of occasions that she lined up in an Olympic Final. A bottler, that does not make. To repeat, she didn't have the luxury of dozens of chances to win the big one like a golfer. Golf has 4 Majors. Always has and always will. Athletics is what it is, Golf is what it is.
And I think you'll find that Sonia is held in great esteem by many of the legends of the track that you mentioned earlier. Even by Paula Radcliffe, a brilliant runner albeit one who never won any Olympic medal!
fair point, I did ask what their opinion was, I never stated I knew what esteem she was held in.

It's a healthy debate though!

For sure it is!
PS Hope you enjoyed the massacre of munster in the RDS this season as much as I did

[dipper]

Yeah, I don't want to get into a pissing contest either lads. Sauvignon, you attack me for knowing nothing about golf. I can play a bit too thanks! And I watch it avidly. You can keep your Rich Beem autobiography though I was just injecting a bit of balance into this. If you say Sonia threw it away in 2000, I'd say Sergio threw it away in 2007. You see, balance. But I accept that Harrington was mentally stronger on this occasion and there wasn't a happier Irishman than me on that occasion. I already told you that I believe Harrington to be a worthy winner of that list. He is a legend and his achievements as an Irishman will probably never be matched. I never said anything different.

What I did say is that Sonia had only a couple of chances to win an Olympic Gold as opposed to Harrington's majors. Yes, Harrington broke through the door after making small strides along the way but Sonia broke down many doors along the way too only to be undone on the day (despite an unbelievable 14:41) by a highly questionable athlete. Unlike Harrington, she didn't get 37 chances to win an Olympic Gold. It is not fair to compare Sonia's Olympic attempts with Padraig's major attempts. World Championship fields are often better than Olympic fields but you only have a 15 minute period every 4 yrs to win an Olympic Gold and Sonia's failure to win one doesn't sully her other achievements in my book.

To my mind, an outdoor World Athletic Championship Gold is the equal of a Golf major. Is Ronnie Delany better than Sonia because he won one Olympic Gold and nothing else? Olympic Golds cannot be absolutely EVERYTHING in athletics. You say that golf is a sport that is impossible to master. Tell me about it! But athletics is not?!!! You describe Golf as a tougher, more exacting game to master. I cannot agree with this. I have hit a few decent golf shots but I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like to run a sub 14:45 5K. Not in my wildest dreams! Every man, woman and child runs. What % of the world ever had the opportunity to play golf? Again, I'm not downplaying Harrington's achievements. But you have to balance this!

PS: To insinuate that my attempt to bring balance to this debate was an example of Irish begrudgery is embarrassing, lazy and way off the mark. Again, I don't have to repeat my complete admiration for Harrington's unbelievable achievements over the course of his career. I was merely celebrating the achievements of both of these athletes and trying to work out which was better. You have said that Sonia was a bottler. If she was a bottler, she'd never have won anything in her career. Things just didn't go perfectly (as they need to do) on the couple of occasions that she lined up in an Olympic Final. A bottler, that does not make. To repeat, she didn't have the luxury of dozens of chances to win the big one like a golfer.

And I think you'll find that Sonia is held in great esteem by many of the legends of the track that you mentioned earlier. Even by Paula Radcliffe, a brilliant runner albeit one who never won any Olympic medal!

It's a healthy debate though!

Yeah and Sonia regularly beat Radcliffe in her day

[exiledinmunster]

What about Katie Taylor. Pound for Pound best Female in the world right now and an international i n football to boot.

[Sauvignon Blank]

What about Katie Taylor. Pound for Pound best Female in the world right now and an international i n football to boot.

Women and Boxing. Never the twain shall meet

[Cianostays]

What about Katie Taylor. Pound for Pound best Female in the world right now and an international i n football to boot.

Women and Boxing. Never the twain shall meet

How about when she wins Olympico Gold in London in 2012?

[Sauvignon Blank]

What about Katie Taylor. Pound for Pound best Female in the world right now and an international i n football to boot.

Women and Boxing. Never the twain shall meet

How about when she wins Olympico Gold in London in 2012?

Best of luck to her, hope she does it for her own sake.

Personally, I'm anti Boxing anyway, so seeing a woman Boxing just makes me cringe.

[sarah_lennon]

What about Katie Taylor. Pound for Pound best Female in the world right now and an international i n football to boot.

Women and Boxing. Never the twain shall meet

Not even Foxy Boxing

[Sauvignon Blank]

What about Katie Taylor. Pound for Pound best Female in the world right now and an international i n football to boot.

Women and Boxing. Never the twain shall meet

Not even Foxy Boxing

Nah, I get dizzy.

[Broken Wing]

Personally, I'm anti Boxing anyway, so seeing a woman Boxing just makes me cringe.

Your sister can't wrestle etc.

[Sauvignon Blank]

Personally, I'm anti Boxing anyway, so seeing a woman Boxing just makes me cringe.

Your sister can't wrestle etc.

Can yours?

[fourthirtythree]

You know I didn't begrudge Harrington for winning it by playing a game, but after seeing what SB has to say about Sonia, I now do.

Honestly, saying that a golf "Major " is an achievement on a higher plane of human accomplishment than a World Championship gold medal

Look: Harrington certainly won the silly trousers event okay? The best Irishman at the long walk and silly trousers in history so far. Athletics has all the mental toughness with added excruciating pain and grit and determination and physical stress.

Darts you have to beat your mythical "number 3" (is that when you sh!t your brains out?) too you know.

[suisse]

It should also be noted that he won two of his majors when the dominant player in the world wasn't competing.

Roger Federer won his record breaking Grand Slam title when the then world's best player and defending Wimbledon champion, Rafael Nadal, was injured. Because of that, do we say that Federer is still level with Sampras?