Matt Williams article in the Times

[deco]

I spent a pleasant morning reading all the sports sections of the paper over a few coffees.

Matt Williams has what I think is a very good article in the Times. The headline is a deceiving, but he describes at length the unfair drubbing the Leinster got prior to our win in 2009 and how it moulded Leinster into what it is today.

Have being ridiculed in the street and the work place for "not supporting a proper team", the article struck a chord with me:

I have lived with both Leinster and Ulster in days of deep adversity. In both circumstances it was my privilege to stand beside wonderful men in very adverse times.

For many years in the eyes of both the media and public, Leinster stood in the giant shadow of Munster. To the public, no matter what the Blue team did, it was never good enough. Looking back, there is no doubt the club and the players were unjustly evaluated. When a loss occurred the media’s habit of attacking the character of the team was reprehensible. Yet only two weeks ago in this paper the loss of the 2002 quarter-final to Leicester was described in such terms.

In 2002, because of a cancelled game due to a frozen pitch, Leinster played Newcastle in Leeds on a Tuesday, Toulouse in Toulouse on the Sunday and then the quarter-final against Leicester in Welford Road on the Saturday. This staggering schedule was impossible to successfully overcome.

Prior to the Leicester match, Leinster lost Mal O’Kelly with a broken cheek, Shane Horgan with broken ribs, Brian O’Meara to ankle ligaments and Nathan Spooner played with a dislocated rib cartridge because there was no one left to take his place at outhalf.

Leicester were the best team in Europe, with Martin Johnson leading a pack that would provide the bulk of the England World Cup-winning team the next season. Incredibly Leinster led 10-0 at the 25-minute mark. Of course, those facts are not remembered. Those who make history get to write history.

The defeat was put down to a lack of character but, in reality, it was a courageous performance. In Leinster the public vilification had several more years to run.

Being one of the best teams in Europe was not enough; Leinster did not win the European Cup so they were portrayed to the Irish public as losers. The disgraceful actions of the ‘Lunster’ supporter had to be witnessed. It was not until semi-final day at Croke Park in 2009 that Leinster was finally liberated.

The adversity endured by those in the Leinster team in those years created an internal bond within the club. It created a family club. There was trust inside this family.

In 2003, after defeating Clermont away, Leinster’s first ever victory in France and one of the club’s great days, Denis Hickie stood and spoke to an emotionally charged changing room. There were the coaches, players, our chairman John Hussey, a few of the alicadoos and one or two of the players’ Dads.

When Denny spoke we all listened.

He told us that “as far as Leinster was concerned the only people that mattered were the people in the room, our families and the few supporters who followed us. We did not have a ‘Red Army’ like Munster but that did not matter, we had the people in the room and that was enough. Forget the papers, forget the television pundits. It’s how people in this room act and think that’s important. It’s what we believe that matters.”

The culture defined by Dennis, and born in adversity, was the foundations of the spirit that created Leinster. Long-serving leaders like Leo Cullen, Gordon D’Arcy, Brian O’Driscoll and Shane Horgan, who remained in the team for many years, passed the hunger on to each new generation of player. Other generations of Leinster teams will now be part of a culture originally shaped in adversity and so a sporting dynasty was born.

Sweet are the uses of adversity for both coaches and players.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/spo ... 61184.html

[artaneboy]

I spent a pleasant morning reading all the sports sections of the paper over a few coffees.

Matt Williams has what I think is a very good article in the Times. The headline is a deceiving, but he describes at length the unfair drubbing the Leinster got prior to our win in 2009 and how it moulded Leinster into what it is today.

Have being ridiculed in the street and the work place for "not supporting a proper team", the article struck a chord with me:

I have lived with both Leinster and Ulster in days of deep adversity. In both circumstances it was my privilege to stand beside wonderful men in very adverse times.

For many years in the eyes of both the media and public, Leinster stood in the giant shadow of Munster. To the public, no matter what the Blue team did, it was never good enough. Looking back, there is no doubt the club and the players were unjustly evaluated. When a loss occurred the media’s habit of attacking the character of the team was reprehensible. Yet only two weeks ago in this paper the loss of the 2002 quarter-final to Leicester was described in such terms.

In 2002, because of a cancelled game due to a frozen pitch, Leinster played Newcastle in Leeds on a Tuesday, Toulouse in Toulouse on the Sunday and then the quarter-final against Leicester in Welford Road on the Saturday. This staggering schedule was impossible to successfully overcome.

Prior to the Leicester match, Leinster lost Mal O’Kelly with a broken cheek, Shane Horgan with broken ribs, Brian O’Meara to ankle ligaments and Nathan Spooner played with a dislocated rib cartridge because there was no one left to take his place at outhalf.

Leicester were the best team in Europe, with Martin Johnson leading a pack that would provide the bulk of the England World Cup-winning team the next season. Incredibly Leinster led 10-0 at the 25-minute mark. Of course, those facts are not remembered. Those who make history get to write history.

The defeat was put down to a lack of character but, in reality, it was a courageous performance. In Leinster the public vilification had several more years to run.

Being one of the best teams in Europe was not enough; Leinster did not win the European Cup so they were portrayed to the Irish public as losers. The disgraceful actions of the ‘Lunster’ supporter had to be witnessed. It was not until semi-final day at Croke Park in 2009 that Leinster was finally liberated.

The adversity endured by those in the Leinster team in those years created an internal bond within the club. It created a family club. There was trust inside this family.

In 2003, after defeating Clermont away, Leinster’s first ever victory in France and one of the club’s great days, Denis Hickie stood and spoke to an emotionally charged changing room. There were the coaches, players, our chairman John Hussey, a few of the alicadoos and one or two of the players’ Dads.

When Denny spoke we all listened.

He told us that “as far as Leinster was concerned the only people that mattered were the people in the room, our families and the few supporters who followed us. We did not have a ‘Red Army’ like Munster but that did not matter, we had the people in the room and that was enough. Forget the papers, forget the television pundits. It’s how people in this room act and think that’s important. It’s what we believe that matters.”

The culture defined by Dennis, and born in adversity, was the foundations of the spirit that created Leinster. Long-serving leaders like Leo Cullen, Gordon D’Arcy, Brian O’Driscoll and Shane Horgan, who remained in the team for many years, passed the hunger on to each new generation of player. Other generations of Leinster teams will now be part of a culture originally shaped in adversity and so a sporting dynasty was born.

Sweet are the uses of adversity for both coaches and players.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/spo ... 61184.html

Great article- and lest we forget, it was one of our own- one Neil Francis, who stuck that disgusting Lady-boys on us. Shameful.... shameful!

[[Jackass]]

Lets not buy into the "myths" and the gallient hero's in the mist b0llox. Leave that self-analysing, communal masturbation to the trailer parks.

[artaneboy]

Lets not buy into the "myths" and the gallient hero's in the mist b0llox. Leave that self-analysing, communal masturbation to the trailer parks.

What are you on about? Do you deny that we were targets of scorn by every barely literate, lazy scribbler and jaw-jockey in the media? Do you not believe that it was the strength of character and talent of Hickie, BOD, Felipe, Reggie and co was not seminal in our using the derision as a driver of our emergence as a recognised superpower.

BTW, the creation myth (not at all necessarily at all lies or untruths), is the cornerstone of any group, faith, philosophy's identity. It helps in our case that the facts are so clear, recent and uncontestable. We need to remember where we've come from- keep a juandiced eye on where some of the hyperbole is coming from (same a******es who riciculed us) and continue building to ensure we never end up there again.

[berniemac67]

Lets not buy into the "myths" and the gallient hero's in the mist b0llox. Leave that self-analysing, communal masturbation to the trailer parks.

What are you on about? Do you deny that we were targets of scorn by every barely literate, lazy scribbler and jaw-jockey in the media? Do you not believe that it was the strength of character and talent of Hickie, BOD, Felipe, Reggie and co was not seminal in our using the derision as a driver of our emergence as a recognised superpower.

BTW, the creation myth (not at all necessarily at all lies or untruths), is the cornerstone of any group, faith, philosophy's identity. It helps in our case that the facts are so clear, recent and uncontestable. We need to remember where we've come from- keep a juandiced eye on where some of the hyperbole is coming from (same a******es who riciculed us) and continue building to ensure we never end up there again.

maybe not lies and untruths, but a MYTH nonetheless

it might help to choose a different metaphor or analogy

[OTT]

Lets not buy into the "myths" and the gallient hero's in the mist b0llox. Leave that self-analysing, communal masturbation to the trailer parks.

What are you on about? Do you deny that we were targets of scorn by every barely literate, lazy scribbler and jaw-jockey in the media? Do you not believe that it was the strength of character and talent of Hickie, BOD, Felipe, Reggie and co was not seminal in our using the derision as a driver of our emergence as a recognised superpower.

BTW, the creation myth (not at all necessarily at all lies or untruths), is the cornerstone of any group, faith, philosophy's identity. It helps in our case that the facts are so clear, recent and uncontestable. We need to remember where we've come from- keep a juandiced eye on where some of the hyperbole is coming from (same a******es who riciculed us) and continue building to ensure we never end up there again.

To be fair to Jackass he buys into that antagonising behaviour, read the Munster thread on here to see that. His posts are at best derisory. Did you see his thread on Clermont yesterday salivating over them because we won, you can be sure he wouldnt have been so nice if we lost (Clermont are a crack team with great fans they dont need our or in that instance jackass's insincerity).

Matt coached Leinster to a point where we thought we might win a Heineken Cup, when discussing his time with us his points are 100% more valid then jackass's. Nice words from Hickie as always, I remember him doing some punditry with the BBC when he was injured as a young lad always thought he would have made a very good one after he retired, Intelligent and engaging.

[[Jackass]]

To be fair to Jackass he buys into that antagonising behaviour, read the Munster thread on here to see that. His posts are at best derisory. Did you see his thread on Clermont yesterday salivating over them because we won, you can be sure he wouldnt have been so nice if we lost (Clermont are a crack team with great fans they dont need our or in that instance jackass's insincerity).

Matt coached Leinster to a point where we thought we might win a Heineken Cup, when discussing his time with us his points are 100% more valid then jackass's. Nice words from Hickie as always, I remember him doing some punditry with the BBC when he was injured as a young lad always thought he would have made a very good one after he retired, Intelligent and engaging.

What a load of pointless drivel.

[mikerob]

At the core of Williams' article there is an interesting theme about the turnaround in fortunes of Leinster, then Ulster, but I don't like his writing style... it is all a bit portentious and over-dramatised.

[Sauvignon Blank]

Lets not buy into the "myths" and the gallient hero's in the mist b0llox. Leave that self-analysing, communal masturbation to the trailer parks.

What are you on about? Do you deny that we were targets of scorn by every barely literate, lazy scribbler and jaw-jockey in the media? Do you not believe that it was the strength of character and talent of Hickie, BOD, Felipe, Reggie and co was not seminal in our using the derision as a driver of our emergence as a recognised superpower.

BTW, the creation myth (not at all necessarily at all lies or untruths), is the cornerstone of any group, faith, philosophy's identity. It helps in our case that the facts are so clear, recent and uncontestable. We need to remember where we've come from- keep a juandiced eye on where some of the hyperbole is coming from (same a******es who riciculed us) and continue building to ensure we never end up there again.

We were targets of scorn because we were quite literally shoite on many occasions. We flattered to decieve and on the big days against the likes of Leicester,Biarritz,Perpignan & Turnips we were beaten out the gate. The strenght of character you talk about was fairly absent back in the day, so i'd wind your neck in and curb the revisionism. I've witnessed those capitulations and they weren't pretty. They happened and the bile inevitably followed in the press.

We had an abundance of talent but never utilised it to realise our potential until 2009.

Arseholes like Franno&co and their ridiculing of us actually helped in no small way to galvanise the team and fans and has imho contributed some way to our current success. It is to Michael Cheika we should look to and thank for a sea change in Leinster and her fortunes in Europe.

PS Creation myth is an erm myth.

[Oldschool]

Lets not buy into the "myths" and the gallient hero's in the mist b0llox. Leave that self-analysing, communal masturbation to the trailer parks.

What are you on about? Do you deny that we were targets of scorn by every barely literate, lazy scribbler and jaw-jockey in the media? Do you not believe that it was the strength of character and talent of Hickie, BOD, Felipe, Reggie and co was not seminal in our using the derision as a driver of our emergence as a recognised superpower.

BTW, the creation myth (not at all necessarily at all lies or untruths), is the cornerstone of any group, faith, philosophy's identity. It helps in our case that the facts are so clear, recent and uncontestable. We need to remember where we've come from- keep a juandiced eye on where some of the hyperbole is coming from (same a******es who riciculed us) and continue building to ensure we never end up there again.

We were targets of scorn because we were quite literally shoite on many occasions. We flattered to decieve and on the big days against the likes of Leicester,Biarritz,Perpignan & Turnips we were beaten out the gate. The strenght of character you talk about was fairly absent back in the day, so i'd wind your neck in and curb the revisionism. I've witnessed those capitulations and they weren't pretty. They happened and the bile inevitably followed in the press.

We had an abundance of talent but never utilised it to realise our potential until 2009.

Arseholes like Franno&co and their ridiculing of us actually helped in no small way to galvanise the team and fans and has imho contributed some way to our current success. It is to Michael Cheika we should look to and thank for a sea change in Leinster and her fortunes in Europe.

PS Creation myth is an erm myth.

Matt and Leinster were unlucky in the sense that with a fit Spooner we would have beaten Perpignon in the SF and who knows about the final.
We still lost that match because of our inherent weakness in the scrum. Perpignon managed, if you remember to turn that game around by attacking us up front and in particular in the scrum. I don't know how many points we missed from penalties, but it was enough to lose us the game.
As regards Cheika - Your own revisionism is showing. He didn't really solve out scrum problem either, but he got it going in the right direction.
He got very lucky when he signed Stan, but CJ well enough said. and remember he didn't fancy Sexton, at all. His attitude left a lot to be desired TBH.
I always got the impression that Franno's problem wasn't with the players, but with the establishment. In his own mind he thought he was giving the players something to create a chip on their shoulders about - galvanise them as you say.
Joe is on a different level. He has addressed all our problems including long term development. The scrum is probably still our only achiles heel and even then only occasionally and even then we seem to be able to fix it at half time.

[olaf the fat]

Matty is just reminding he had a hand coaching both Hcup finalist at some stage!

[ronk]

As regards Cheika - Your own revisionism is showing. He didn't really solve out scrum problem either, but he got it going in the right direction.
He got very lucky when he signed Stan, but CJ well enough said. and remember he didn't fancy Sexton, at all. His attitude left a lot to be desired TBH.
I always got the impression that Franno's problem wasn't with the players, but with the establishment. In his own mind he thought he was giving the players something to create a chip on their shoulders about - galvanise them as you say.
Joe is on a different level. He has addressed all our problems including long term development. The scrum is probably still our only achiles heel and even then only occasionally and even then we seem to be able to fix it at half time.

Cheika certainly tried with the scrums. Hiring CJ showed his intent, even if injury meant it didn't work out for him. He also hired Ross, Healy was brought through effectively too. MC had a lot of work to do in a lot of areas and Joe was really only building on that. Cheika hired Hines too.

It should also be noted that Contepomi was leaving before he ever got injured. Sexton was already going to be our outhalf for 2009-2010 and Cheika was coach.

Joe has achieved so much, there's no need to credit for things that others did. Joe was fortunate in that he inherited a team that was already one of the best in Europe and he happened to know exactly what was wrong with us and how to fix it. The French clubs were ahead in terms of the physical development of the game, right from the start Joe said so and made it his top priority. We were fit, but we didn't have the power to match them up front. We saw that when we lost in Toulouse in 2010, the bar had been raised.

Before we were a team that wouldn't really know what to do with major bulk like Toner, Browne and Auva'a. Joe's attitude is: it's not our problem, it's their problem.

[artaneboy]

[What are you on about? Do you deny that we were targets of scorn by every barely literate, lazy scribbler and jaw-jockey in the media? Do you not believe that it was the strength of character and talent of Hickie, BOD, Felipe, Reggie and co was not seminal in our using the derision as a driver of our emergence as a recognised superpower.

BTW, the creation myth (not at all necessarily at all lies or untruths), is the cornerstone of any group, faith, philosophy's identity. It helps in our case that the facts are so clear, recent and uncontestable. We need to remember where we've come from- keep a juandiced eye on where some of the hyperbole is coming from (same a******es who riciculed us) and continue building to ensure we never end up there again.

We were targets of scorn because we were quite literally shoite on many occasions. We flattered to decieve and on the big days against the likes of Leicester,Biarritz,Perpignan & Turnips we were beaten out the gate. The strenght of character you talk about was fairly absent back in the day, so i'd wind your neck in and curb the revisionism. I've witnessed those capitulations and they weren't pretty. They happened and the bile inevitably followed in the press.

We had an abundance of talent but never utilised it to realise our potential until 2009.

Arseholes like Franno&co and their ridiculing of us actually helped in no small way to galvanise the team and fans and has imho contributed some way to our current success. It is to Michael Cheika we should look to and thank for a sea change in Leinster and her fortunes in Europe.

PS Creation myth is an erm myth.

What??? That blend of bombast and crankiness is incoherent even by your considerable standards. Read Williams' article; read the responses; then read what I write- not what you think I might have written. Are you really saving that a cause of our success was ridicule by the press and commentators- and that the player's character needed that to reach the promised land of a HC success? Bearing in mind that we did win the Celtic League and the Celtic Cup in that time. Rubbish! We were caricatured and traduced by every smart arse operating in the media.

Your pal Francis was probably the worst, in that he was a prime example of what he slammed that team as being. He was a very talented but equally lazy player, who never reached his potential. Everything Franno did; he did in the comfort zone. His journalism today is a lot like that: brilliant in parts, entertaining often and invariably under-prepared. How dare he then revile a group of players- who whatever their capacity then (they had weaknesses in the team) showed more genuineness than he ever did on the field.

The likes of yourself would see yourself as perfectionists promoting excellence- when what you are really doing is setting absurd demands on a team and squad. You’re still at it. I seem to remember your rant last year when we failed to win TP! Did any of us like losing there? Some of us just took rounded view of what we had achieved to date and still had ahead of us. No understanding; no measure…. no idea!

[Sauvignon Blank]

We were targets of scorn because we were quite literally shoite on many occasions. We flattered to decieve and on the big days against the likes of Leicester,Biarritz,Perpignan & Turnips we were beaten out the gate. The strenght of character you talk about was fairly absent back in the day, so i'd wind your neck in and curb the revisionism. I've witnessed those capitulations and they weren't pretty. They happened and the bile inevitably followed in the press.

We had an abundance of talent but never utilised it to realise our potential until 2009.

Arseholes like Franno&co and their ridiculing of us actually helped in no small way to galvanise the team and fans and has imho contributed some way to our current success. It is to Michael Cheika we should look to and thank for a sea change in Leinster and her fortunes in Europe.

PS Creation myth is an erm myth.

Matt and Leinster were unlucky in the sense that with a fit Spooner we would have beaten Perpignon in the SF and who knows about the final.
We still lost that match because of our inherent weakness in the scrum. Perpignon managed, if you remember to turn that game around by attacking us up front and in particular in the scrum. I don't know how many points we missed from penalties, but it was enough to lose us the game.
As regards Cheika - Your own revisionism is showing. He didn't really solve out scrum problem either, but he got it going in the right direction.
He got very lucky when he signed Stan, but CJ well enough said. and remember he didn't fancy Sexton, at all. His attitude left a lot to be desired TBH.
I always got the impression that Franno's problem wasn't with the players, but with the establishment. In his own mind he thought he was giving the players something to create a chip on their shoulders about - galvanise them as you say.
Joe is on a different level. He has addressed all our problems including long term development. The scrum is probably still our only achiles heel and even then only occasionally and even then we seem to be able to fix it at half time.

Easy on the revisionism OS, I know you don't like Cheika and your antipathy towards him and his methods are well documented here. But, without going into a long winded defence of him here i'll thus sum it up.

Cheika took over a talented bunch of players. He ensured we won the CL in 2008. Remember the Scarletts performance away? I like a few others probably pin point that game as the day the worm turned with leinster. In awful conditions we rumbled their pack around the pitch and won. You conveniently forget a certain Ollie leRoux, although you would deny Cheikas influence on signing him.
Cheika instilled a winning mentality and we duly started winning, namely the top prize in club rugby. But don't take my word for it, wait till Drico's book comes out, I bet he talks in depth about his influence.

[Dave Cahill]

Bearing in mind that we did win the [...] Celtic Cup in that time.

We didn't. It only existed for two seasons, Ulster in 03-04 (where they beat us in the qtr final aet on try count) and Munster in 04-05 (who beat us in an infamous semi-final) were the winners

[Sauvignon Blank]

[What are you on about? Do you deny that we were targets of scorn by every barely literate, lazy scribbler and jaw-jockey in the media? Do you not believe that it was the strength of character and talent of Hickie, BOD, Felipe, Reggie and co was not seminal in our using the derision as a driver of our emergence as a recognised superpower.

BTW, the creation myth (not at all necessarily at all lies or untruths), is the cornerstone of any group, faith, philosophy's identity. It helps in our case that the facts are so clear, recent and uncontestable. We need to remember where we've come from- keep a juandiced eye on where some of the hyperbole is coming from (same a******es who riciculed us) and continue building to ensure we never end up there again.

We were targets of scorn because we were quite literally shoite on many occasions. We flattered to decieve and on the big days against the likes of Leicester,Biarritz,Perpignan & Turnips we were beaten out the gate. The strenght of character you talk about was fairly absent back in the day, so i'd wind your neck in and curb the revisionism. I've witnessed those capitulations and they weren't pretty. They happened and the bile inevitably followed in the press.

We had an abundance of talent but never utilised it to realise our potential until 2009.

Arseholes like Franno&co and their ridiculing of us actually helped in no small way to galvanise the team and fans and has imho contributed some way to our current success. It is to Michael Cheika we should look to and thank for a sea change in Leinster and her fortunes in Europe.

PS Creation myth is an erm myth.

What??? That blend of bombast and crankiness is incoherent even by your considerable standards. Read Williams' article; read the responses; then read what I write- not what you think I might have written. Are you really saving that a cause of our success was ridicule by the press and commentators- and that the player's character needed that to reach the promised land of a HC success? Bearing in mind that we did win the Celtic League and the Celtic Cup in that time. Rubbish! We were caricatured and traduced by every smart arse operating in the media.

Your pal Francis was probably the worst, in that he was a prime example of what he slammed that team as being. He was a very talented but equally lazy player, who never reached his potential. Everything Franno did; he did in the comfort zone. His journalism today is a lot like that: brilliant in parts, entertaining often and invariably under-prepared. How dare he then revile a group of players- who whatever their capacity then (they had weaknesses in the team) showed more genuineness than he ever did on the field.

The likes of yourself would see yourself as perfectionists promoting excellence- when what you are really doing is setting absurd demands on a team and squad. You’re still at it. I seem to remember your rant last year when we failed to win TP! Did any of us like losing there? Some of us just took rounded view of what we had achieved to date and still had ahead of us. No understanding; no measure…. no idea!

Nothing incoherent at all, I suspect your not the sharpest tool in the box.

Look again at my response. I said the ridicule by the press was a 'small part' in contributing to our success, a small part. It drove them on and to deny or even think this wasn't in the players minds in Edinburgh is naeive to say the least. We were lambasted & lampooned in the media because of the players/talent we had but failed consistently to get any reasonable return. Thats what the media do, like it or not. I have gone on record many times here expressing my revulsion for the media, so not sure where you are going with 'your pal Franno' nonsense You might not like him, and yes he was an awful player, but he is right more often than not these days. Because i agree with him(on certain things) he's my pal ffs weird logic.

Who gives a flying fcuk what the media say about us? you are obviously sensitive to them. Know this, the wankfest that surrounded Munster is currently in danger of enveloping Leinster. They'll build us up and knock us down just as quick.

Explain how i set absurd demands on my team and squad? Ludicrous statement.
The game in TP should always be targetted as a winnable game like every other game we play. We wont win it everytime nor other games but we should go out to win EVERYTIME.

And we didnt win the celtic cup BTW in 08, we did win the league tho'

[Oldschool]

We were targets of scorn because we were quite literally shoite on many occasions. We flattered to decieve and on the big days against the likes of Leicester,Biarritz,Perpignan & Turnips we were beaten out the gate. The strenght of character you talk about was fairly absent back in the day, so i'd wind your neck in and curb the revisionism. I've witnessed those capitulations and they weren't pretty. They happened and the bile inevitably followed in the press.

We had an abundance of talent but never utilised it to realise our potential until 2009.

Arseholes like Franno&co and their ridiculing of us actually helped in no small way to galvanise the team and fans and has imho contributed some way to our current success. It is to Michael Cheika we should look to and thank for a sea change in Leinster and her fortunes in Europe.

PS Creation myth is an erm myth.

Matt and Leinster were unlucky in the sense that with a fit Spooner we would have beaten Perpignon in the SF and who knows about the final.
We still lost that match because of our inherent weakness in the scrum. Perpignon managed, if you remember to turn that game around by attacking us up front and in particular in the scrum. I don't know how many points we missed from penalties, but it was enough to lose us the game.
As regards Cheika - Your own revisionism is showing. He didn't really solve out scrum problem either, but he got it going in the right direction.
He got very lucky when he signed Stan, but CJ well enough said. and remember he didn't fancy Sexton, at all. His attitude left a lot to be desired TBH.
I always got the impression that Franno's problem wasn't with the players, but with the establishment. In his own mind he thought he was giving the players something to create a chip on their shoulders about - galvanise them as you say.
Joe is on a different level. He has addressed all our problems including long term development. The scrum is probably still our only achiles heel and even then only occasionally and even then we seem to be able to fix it at half time.

Easy on the revisionism OS, I know you don't like Cheika and your antipathy towards him and his methods are well documented here. But, without going into a long winded defence of him here i'll thus sum it up.

Cheika took over a talented bunch of players. He ensured we won the CL in 2008. Remember the Scarletts performance away? I like a few others probably pin point that game as the day the worm turned with leinster. In awful conditions we rumbled their pack around the pitch and won. You conveniently forget a certain Ollie leRoux, although you would deny Cheikas influence on signing him.
Cheika instilled a winning mentality and we duly started winning, namely the top prize in club rugby. But don't take my word for it, wait till Drico's book comes out, I bet he talks in depth about his influence.

I'm a realist. Credit where credit is due, Cheika coached us to a HEC and sure he got a lot of things right (as you've pointed out), but he got a lot wrong too (as I'm pointing out) and was very slow to address his mistakes. He wasn't by any means perfect and made a lot of errors during his on the job training eg The IRFU/Leinster signed Ross and then Cheika didn't use him, got stubborn about it and gave the establishment the two fingers. Meanwhile Ross (The innocent party) got dumped on.
He doesn't exactly come out smelling of roses either where Sexton is concerned. So sure he got a lot right, but he got plenty wrong too. You learn more from your mistakes than your successes. Cheika was a slow learner.
He took four years to get there and didn't get a contract renewal offer having just won the HEC. I'd say my assessment of him is not unique.
Whom would you prefer - Joe or Michael to be our coach? Matt or Michael?

[Sauvignon Blank]

Matt and Leinster were unlucky in the sense that with a fit Spooner we would have beaten Perpignon in the SF and who knows about the final.
We still lost that match because of our inherent weakness in the scrum. Perpignon managed, if you remember to turn that game around by attacking us up front and in particular in the scrum. I don't know how many points we missed from penalties, but it was enough to lose us the game.
As regards Cheika - Your own revisionism is showing. He didn't really solve out scrum problem either, but he got it going in the right direction.
He got very lucky when he signed Stan, but CJ well enough said. and remember he didn't fancy Sexton, at all. His attitude left a lot to be desired TBH.
I always got the impression that Franno's problem wasn't with the players, but with the establishment. In his own mind he thought he was giving the players something to create a chip on their shoulders about - galvanise them as you say.
Joe is on a different level. He has addressed all our problems including long term development. The scrum is probably still our only achiles heel and even then only occasionally and even then we seem to be able to fix it at half time.

Easy on the revisionism OS, I know you don't like Cheika and your antipathy towards him and his methods are well documented here. But, without going into a long winded defence of him here i'll thus sum it up.

Cheika took over a talented bunch of players. He ensured we won the CL in 2008. Remember the Scarletts performance away? I like a few others probably pin point that game as the day the worm turned with leinster. In awful conditions we rumbled their pack around the pitch and won. You conveniently forget a certain Ollie leRoux, although you would deny Cheikas influence on signing him.
Cheika instilled a winning mentality and we duly started winning, namely the top prize in club rugby. But don't take my word for it, wait till Drico's book comes out, I bet he talks in depth about his influence.

I'm a realist. Credit where credit is due, Cheika coached us to a HEC and sure he got a lot of things right (as you've pointed out), but he got a lot wrong too (as I'm pointing out) and was very slow to address his mistakes. He wasn't by any means perfect and made a lot of errors during his on the job training eg The IRFU/Leinster signed Ross and then Cheika didn't use him, got stubborn about it and gave the establishment the two fingers. Meanwhile Ross (The innocent party) got dumped on.
He doesn't exactly come out smelling of roses either where Sexton is concerned. So sure he got a lot right, but he got plenty wrong too. You learn more from your mistakes than your successes. Cheika was a slow learner.
He took four years to get there and didn't get a contract renewal offer having just won the HEC. I'd say my assessment of him is not unique.
Whom would you prefer - Joe or Michael to be our coach? Matt or Michael?

I never said he didn't make mistakes, he did as you point out. So does Joe(Glasgow away HC) and every other coach in the game. Some more than others. My point is he turned us around, end of.
Don't let your dislike of him cloud your judgement. He's not perfect but he did a job for us. Cheika was a vital piece in our jigsaw and played a pivotal role in our evolution as a European tour de force. Fact.
Agreed ,you learn from mistakes and adversity, but he learned and delivered eventually. He was leaving leinster anyway so the 'contract renewal offer' is disingenuous. His time was up and had taken us as far as he could.

Whom would I prefer ; Joe, Michael or Matt? Not sure what you mean, they all coached us in different times and context.
They were/are all part of our story and evolution. A better question(s) would be.....

Without Matt & Ella would we have had a Michael type coach?

Without Michael would we have gone for a Joe type coach?

I tend to look on it as Leinster evolving and adapting, finding the right possible fit, which to Mick Dawsons credit he has done quite brilliantly. I'm not one for fawning or false praise and can be critical of a lot of aspects regarding LR but in this respect they have got it spot on of late.

Soccer analogy, Shankly won very little of note (comparable to Fagan & Paisley) with Liverpool but without his personality and style, the timing of his introduction, Liverpool would never have gone on to become the greatest British football team and European giant. He was pivotal in their evolution/development.

[johng]

I never said he didn't make mistakes, he did as you point out. So does Joe(Glasgow away HC) and every other coach in the game. Some more than others. My point is he turned us around, end of.
Don't let your dislike of him cloud your judgement. He's not perfect but he did a job for us. Cheika was a vital piece in our jigsaw and played a pivotal role in our evolution as a European tour de force. Fact.
Agreed ,you learn from mistakes and adversity, but he learned and delivered eventually. He was leaving leinster anyway so the 'contract renewal offer' is disingenuous. His time was up and had taken us as far as he could.

Whom would I prefer ; Joe, Michael or Matt? Not sure what you mean, they all coached us in different times and context.
They were/are all part of our story and evolution. A better question(s) would be.....

Without Matt & Ella would we have had a Michael type coach?

Without Michael would we have gone for a Joe type coach?

I tend to look on it as Leinster evolving and adapting, finding the right possible fit, which to Mick Dawsons credit he has done quite brilliantly. I'm not one for fawning or false praise and can be critical of a lot of aspects regarding LR but in this respect they have got it spot on of late.

Soccer analogy, Shankly won very little of note (comparable to Fagan & Paisley) with Liverpool but without his personality and style, the timing of his introduction, Liverpool would never have gone on to become the greatest British football team and European giant. He was pivotal in their evolution/development.

You certainly are not one for fake praise, and I suppose that makes the praise you give Cheika more valuable, or at least less likely to be untrue.

It is like the Russians say of the Americans with their "have a nice day" attitude.

When we smile you know we really mean it!

I would agree with your assessment of Cheika. He was much easier than Joe to criticise when he was around but Joe would not have had the success he has had without Cheika's legacy.

So I also agree that it is all down to evolution.

You can never judge what happens (or more so what might have happened) without looking at what preceded it.

Even within the 80 mins of a Rugby game you cannot say that "we would have won if that penalty was given in the first 10 mins"

Because the whole game would have been different in it's entirety from that point onwards. Teams play different when they are ahead etc.

[JohnB]

I always had a soft spot for Cheika after I heard him address the US Chamber of Commerce 4th of July luncheon in 2008. Speaking directly to the exceedingly Republican US Ambassador of the time, he said,"you won't know anything about them but Leinster has a little trouble with a team called Munster.How can I best describe it? Our relationship with Munster is analogous to the USA's relationship with Al Quada!" He definitely got my vote after that description!