General GAA thread

[AwayTheWell]

Could some one explain to the uninitiated (eg myself) why Dublin can be so strong at the football , yet rarely challenge in the hurling? Also the ulster counties seem to be pretty average at hurling as well?

Is Hurling played in less counties or something?

Tradition would be a major factor. How that tradition start off I wouldn't be able to say. On a very broad level would be somewhat similar to how rugby union in Wales is dominated by the Southern part of the country (albeit with a higher concentration of the population), while some northern parts would be more rugby league/soccer orientated - so I believe.

[cormac]

Could some one explain to the uninitiated (eg myself) why Dublin can be so strong at the football , yet rarely challenge in the hurling? Also the ulster counties seem to be pretty average at hurling as well?

Is Hurling played in less counties or something?

Hurling is played far less than gaelic football and it's barely played in the northern half of the island. Even in counties where there's a decent team it's often only the most popular sport in pockets of those counties. From my experience, it's a far more difficult sport to pick up compared to gaelic football, soccer or even rugby.

As for Dublin, it was a marginal sport for a long time in the county. Dublin used to win Leinster championships in hurling at a regular rate until the early 60's but a lot of the players at that stage were people who'd moved to Dublin from more traditional hurling areas. Soccer was king in the city and gaelic football really took off too in the 70's when the Dublin footballers reached six All-Ireland finals in a row. Hurling was a real minority sport, even rugby probably had as many players and supporters.

The Dublin County Board started to put a lot more money into it since the turn of the millennium and playing numbers have certainly increased. However, a lot of the talented under-age players play both football and hurling and most tend to concentrate on the football once they join the senior ranks. The Dublin minor team (U-18's) reached the All-Ireland final in 2011, yet the four best players from that team are now all on the senior football panel. Until they can redress that issue, Dublin are unlikely to challenge regularly for top honours.

[meinster]

Tradition would be a major factor

Yup, and tradition-inspired politics too (i.e. there are very few country boards who would treat both codes equally). Cork are probably the only decent example of a county strong in both codes (Offaly, Galway, Dublin worthy mentions aside)?

[nelly the elephant]

Could some one explain to the uninitiated (eg myself) why Dublin can be so strong at the football , yet rarely challenge in the hurling? Also the ulster counties seem to be pretty average at hurling as well?

Is Hurling played in less counties or something?

Good info contained in all the posts above......Cormac probably hit the fundamental nail on the head though. It's an extraordinarily difficult game to learn in comparison to the other major field sports. The skill level, hand-eye co-ordination, speed of the ball etc set it apart and it's definitely not something you can just "pick up".....not if you intend playing at a high level. Most players who've ever played at inter county level would have been learning the game from a very early age(3-4 yrs old-far in advance of the "official" starting age, 6 I think?) It's unfortunate but that's part of what makes it so great. Most hurling fans(I'm a committed one) if they're honest are probably a bit snobbish about it, in the sense that we consider it the best game in the world, due in no small part to how difficult it is to learn & play.

[Dave Cahill]

Could some one explain to the uninitiated (eg myself) why Dublin can be so strong at the football , yet rarely challenge in the hurling? Also the ulster counties seem to be pretty average at hurling as well?

Is Hurling played in less counties or something?

The real reason, and one no one will admit because it would mean that they aren't 'true gaels', is that (and this is certainly the case in cavan), they just don't like it. Its not regarded as being physical enough or that there are no rewards for physicality at least, and the nature of the game doesn't lend itself to tactical play or innovation.

I'd have to disagree with Nelly on the difficulty of the game. Like any sport its hard to play well, but the basics are, like every stick and ball game, easy to learn. It is the most common 'genre' of games on the planet, every culture develops at least one during its existence.

[meinster]

The real reason....

Hog wash.

I'd have to disagree with Nelly

Wrong again!

Because of the pace of the game, the difficulty of, and dependency on, possession and the precision required (to score and to retain possession), there's a lot more manoeuvre room for tactical genius. No innovation in hurling? Good grief man, watch a bit of hurling some time! Even the point on physicality is almost a moot point these days. I know a few IC hurlers who'd argue hurling is a lot more physical, and a lot lot more rewarding for being physical.

Hurling is harder than nearly every other stick sport out there. Ice Hockey would be on a par, but not any other popular stick sport that I can think of.

Now maybe I'm tainted by the aforementioned hurling snobbery, but you're just trolling now!

[meinster]

the best game in the world

FACT! etc.

[Dave Cahill]

Now maybe I'm tainted by the aforementioned hurling snobbery, but you're just trolling now!

You are I'm afraid. Hurling fans are to sports what jazz fans are to music. Hurling would probably be a perfectly serviceable sport if it weren't for the people who like it. They make the rest of us want to get degrees in chemistry and biology, work hard to become the top of our fields, then use all the expertise to hatch a diabolical plan to mutate dutch elm disease into something that attacks ash. I played the sport for 25 years and I've never been to a game I wasn't playing in just in case hurling fans were at it. If its any consolation, you're not quite as bad as Basket 'the fastest growing sport in ireland' ball fans used to be during the 80s.

Hmmmm basketball fans - hurling fans, a sizeable proportion of both groups are from Cork....I'm sensing a pattern...

[Avenger]

Congratulations Dave. You've just won the award for squeezing the greatest amount of bullshit I've ever seen in one post. Fair play. Some achievement considering...

[nelly the elephant]

Now maybe I'm tainted by the aforementioned hurling snobbery, but you're just trolling now!

You are I'm afraid. Hurling fans are to sports what jazz fans are to music. Hurling would probably be a perfectly serviceable sport if it weren't for the people who like it. They make the rest of us want to get degrees in chemistry and biology, work hard to become the top of our fields, then use all the expertise to hatch a diabolical plan to mutate dutch elm disease into something that attacks ash. I played the sport for 25 years and I've never been to a game I wasn't playing in just in case hurling fans were at it. If its any consolation, you're not quite as bad as Basket 'the fastest growing sport in ireland' ball fans used to be during the 80s.

Hmmmm basketball fans - hurling fans, a sizeable proportion of both groups are from Cork....I'm sensing a pattern...

DC....you quite obviously love the game so....

[Avenger]

Now maybe I'm tainted by the aforementioned hurling snobbery, but you're just trolling now!

You are I'm afraid. Hurling fans are to sports what jazz fans are to music. Hurling would probably be a perfectly serviceable sport if it weren't for the people who like it. They make the rest of us want to get degrees in chemistry and biology, work hard to become the top of our fields, then use all the expertise to hatch a diabolical plan to mutate dutch elm disease into something that attacks ash. I played the sport for 25 years and I've never been to a game I wasn't playing in just in case hurling fans were at it. If its any consolation, you're not quite as bad as Basket 'the fastest growing sport in ireland' ball fans used to be during the 80s.

Hmmmm basketball fans - hurling fans, a sizeable proportion of both groups are from Cork....I'm sensing a pattern...

Thought I was reading Tom Humphries going on about rugby when I was reading this. Thats the level of nonsense we're dealing with here.

Whatever your opinion of hurling fans, your point about physicality and tactics couldn't be more wrong. Its a comment like that which makes me think your "I played the sport for 25 years" is also utter nonsense.

[Dave Cahill]

Thought I was reading Tom Humphries going on about rugby when I was reading this. Thats the level of nonsense we're dealing with here.

Whatever your opinion of hurling fans, your point about physicality and tactics couldn't be more wrong. Its a comment like that which makes me think your "I played the sport for 25 years" is also utter nonsense.

You can't have a tactical approach to a sport where you can score from such a wide range of positions on the field and such large distances as a matter of course (i.e. not just players with 'special' skills or constructed circumstances) - its just simply not possible, there is no room for discussion or opinion on the matter. Hurling doesn't have an Alf Ramsey or a Del Bosque, a Paul Whitehead or more locally the QUB and UUJ teams that introduced the blanket defence at the start of the millennium because that kind of tactical revolution that changes the game forever just isn't possible in Hurling. In a way its a good thing because it means that the team with the best players who play well will always win no matter what the opposition does, theres a purity in that. It means though that the game will never evolve beyond its current strongholds as there is no way for a team to counteract a skills gap tactically. Even counties that were previously regarded as being strong 'tier 2' counties like Laois, Antrim and Down have dropped off the map and even Offaly are on the precipice (some say they are over the edge)

[offshorerules]

Thought I was reading Tom Humphries going on about rugby when I was reading this. Thats the level of nonsense we're dealing with here.

Whatever your opinion of hurling fans, your point about physicality and tactics couldn't be more wrong. Its a comment like that which makes me think your "I played the sport for 25 years" is also utter nonsense.

You can't have a tactical approach to a sport where you can score from such a wide range of positions on the field and such large distances as a matter of course (i.e. not just players with 'special' skills or constructed circumstances) - its just simply not possible, there is no room for discussion or opinion on the matter. Hurling doesn't have an Alf Ramsey or a Del Bosque, a Paul Whitehead or more locally the QUB and UUJ teams that introduced the blanket defence at the start of the millennium because that kind of tactical revolution that changes the game forever just isn't possible in Hurling. In a way its a good thing because it means that the team with the best players who play well will always win no matter what the opposition does, theres a purity in that. It means though that the game will never evolve beyond its current strongholds as there is no way for a team to counteract a skills gap tactically. Even counties that were previously regarded as being strong 'tier 2' counties like Laois, Antrim and Down have dropped off the map and even Offaly are on the precipice (some say they are over the edge)

Cody?

[Avenger]

You can't have a tactical approach to a sport where you can score from such a wide range of positions on the field and such large distances as a matter of course (i.e. not just players with 'special' skills or constructed circumstances) - its just simply not possible, there is no room for discussion or opinion on the matter.

Sorry for the slow reply but its a bank holiday weekend and well I couldn't be bothered

You'll enjoy this as you clearly have a massive love of Cork...
I was talking to a college about the Cork team of the early to mid 2000s just last week. I had said the first time I saw them was in the quarterfinal in 2003 and I said how impressed I had been with their pre match warm up and that it wasn't your usual pre match warm up. He said he knew a guy on the team and that the effort it took to change the way lads were used to playing was a very difficult process and he said The Rock (O'Sullivan) was the one who resisted it the most. His natural instinct after winning possession was to hit it as hard and as far as he could... but that's not what the team wanted as the tactics were to launch attacks from the half-back line and to run with the ball. This is just one example of a team using tactics that were not the norm.

There are plenty of teams that line up in your traditional formation and believe that they are 'harder' because of it. Cody is definitely from this school of thought. He goes on about it a lot that they don't do tactics and its all about beating your man and honesty of effort, yada yada yada and I don't believe it for a second. When I watched Wexford and Dublin getting hammered in this years quarterfinals, something that stood out for me was the poor decision making and shot selection - specifically going for shots from stupid positions and the overriding thought I had was I'd never see a Kilkenny player try to do that. They'd recycle the ball back to a lad in a better position and he'd take the shot. That IMHO is tactical! And if its not, why don't all teams do it?

The Cork team that won All Irelands in 04 and 05 had a specific game plan. The Kilkenny team that came after them first had a game plan to counteract that and ended up getting 4 in a row... but going in to the 06 final Cork were overwhelming favourites.

Also things can change very quickly in hurling. After we lost the 2010 All Ireland final, I heard lots of talk about Tipp going on to dominate like Kilkenny had... and part of me believed it because they were young and they were very very good... but they haven't won one since.

There is the problem that it is only played in a small portion of the island but Dublin have made massive strides - won a league and Leinster title which is something that was a long way off 10 years ago. If they keep promoting the game and give it more breathing space then they can kick on even further.

And finally I presume you think that gaelic football does have tactical genius' considering you brought up that hurling doesn't?

[meinster]

You can't have a tactical approach to a sport where you can score from such a wide range of positions on the field

I'm out. Hilarious horse poop altogether. Always with the crazy!!

[Dave Cahill]

You can't have a tactical approach to a sport where you can score from such a wide range of positions on the field

I'm out. Hilarious horse poop altogether. Always with the crazy!!

You simply can't - its not even open for discussion. You have a scoring zone that starts 70 metres out. All what passes for tactics in hurling are is variations on man marking, any one claiming otherwise is simply attempting to put lipstick on a pig.

[Donny B.]

DC never recovered from not making the Cavan under-14s team and since then has waged war on the sport

[Dave Cahill]

DC never recovered from not making the Cavan under-14s team and since then has waged war on the sport

Once the troubles were over, all the guards and soldiers from hurling counties that used to play for Cavan were gone hurling in Cavan dropped down a couple of levels. Down from NHL division 4 level. Down from the bottom of NHL division 4. Cavan prided itself on having the worst hurling team in Ireland, at being worse at Hurling than Kilkenny were at football! I reckon anyone who played any sort of decent level of organised hurling in Leinster or Munster could have gotten at the very least a challenge game for the County seniors.

I remember a couple of years ago going to see Cavan Gaels play Cuchullains in a senior football league game. A hurling match was the curtain raiser, so I timed my entry to miss as much of it as possible. I needn't have bothered though, as one team didn't have a full selection and the opposition didn't show up. It was the Senior County Final.

I think I might have made the u-14s alright

[Donny B.]

DC never recovered from not making the Cavan under-14s team and since then has waged war on the sport

Once the troubles were over, all the guards and soldiers from hurling counties that used to play for Cavan were gone hurling in Cavan dropped down a couple of levels. Down from NHL division 4 level. Down from the bottom of NHL division 4. Cavan prided itself on having the worst hurling team in Ireland, at being worse at Hurling than Kilkenny were at football! I reckon anyone who played any sort of decent level of organised hurling in Leinster or Munster could have gotten at the very least a challenge game for the County seniors.

I remember a couple of years ago going to see Cavan Gaels play Cuchullains in a senior football league game. A hurling match was the curtain raiser, so I timed my entry to miss as much of it as possible. I needn't have bothered though, as one team didn't have a full selection and the opposition didn't show up. It was the Senior County Final.

I think I might have made the u-14s alright

The fact that you didn't makes it hurt all the more and explains where the hatred comes from. Time to forgive and forget DC!

[Dave Cahill]

I wasn't in Cavan for u-14s, I was for u-16s though