Wales v Ireland Fri 10th March 8 05pm

[Oldschool]

We've better props and half backs. After that, no.

Bit more depth though.

We don't have better half backs.
Wales put the lie to that.
Wales talked them up and then took them down.
That was the thing that worried me most before the game.

[ronk]

We've better props and half backs. After that, no.

Bit more depth though.

We don't have better half backs.
Wales put the lie to that.
Wales talked them up and then took them down.
That was the thing that worried me most before the game.

Well they got them off the pitch...

[fourthirtythree]

Sorry I was responding to whether we had better resources than the Kidney and O'Sullivan teams at their best. Props and halfbacks.

But yes Ronk, difficult to say last night as ours weren't on for some time. Webb certainly bolstered his claim for the Lions though.

[ronk]

Most of our depth is injured. Schmidt used what he had and held back where we don't. But he was probably overly conservative in doing so.

Leinster losing Teo'o, Madigan and Moore last season along with the retirement of Reddan and Ross's form has eaten up a lot of depth.

Injuries like Cronin, Trimble, VDF, Murphy and Payne took away more.

Fixtures are lining up well for development once next week is out of the way.

[All Blacks nil]

2009 Slam team v Wales v yesterday's team.
Kearney. V Kearney
Bowe v Earls
BOD v Ringrose
Darcy v Henshaw
Luke v zebo
ROG v JS
TOL V Murray
Horan v Jack Mc
Flannery v Best
Hayes v Furlong
POC v Ryan
DOC v Toner
Ferris v CJ
Wallace v SOB
Heaslip v Heaslip
Court V Healy and Ryan ( 22 in match day squad in 09)
Best V Scannell
O'Driscoll V Henderson
Leaky V POM
Stringer V Marmion
Wallace V Jackson
Murphy V Bowe

A composite team/ squad would make an interesting debate.

[neiliog93]

2009 Slam team v Wales v yesterday's team.
Kearney. V Kearney
Bowe v Earls
BOD v Ringrose
Darcy v Henshaw
Luke v zebo
ROG v JS
TOL V Murray
Horan v Jack Mc
Flannery v Best
Hayes v Furlong
POC v Ryan
DOC v Toner
Ferris v CJ
Wallace v SOB
Heaslip v Heaslip
Court V Healy and Ryan ( 22 in match day squad in 09)
Best V Scannell
O'Driscoll V Henderson
Leaky V POM
Stringer V Marmion
Wallace V Jackson
Murphy V Bowe

A composite team/ squad would make an interesting debate.

Kearney (2009) vs Kearney (2017) = 2009
Bowe (2009) vs Earls (2017) = 2009
BOD vs Ringrose = 2009
D'Arcy vs Henshaw = 2017
Luke vs Zebo = 2009
ROG vs Sexton = 2017
TOL vs Murray = 2017

Horan vs McGrath = 2017
Flannery vs Best (2017) = 2009
Hayes vs Furlong = 2017
POC vs D.Ryan = 2009
DOC vs Toner = 2009
Ferris vs CJ = Draw
Wallace vs SOB = 2009 (on SOB's current form)
Heaslip (2009) vs Heaslip (2017) = 2009

Court vs Healy = 2017
Best (2009) vs Scannell = 2009
M.O'Driscoll vs Henderson = 2017
Leamy vs POM = 2017
Stringer vs Marmion = 2009
P.Wallace vs Jackson = 2017
G.Murphy vs Bowe (2017) = 2009

[Oldschool]

We've better props and half backs. After that, no.

Bit more depth though.

We don't have better half backs.
Wales put the lie to that.
Wales talked them up and then took them down.
That was the thing that worried me most before the game.

Well they got them off the pitch...

They got one of them off the pitch and that was fortuitous.
The other absented himself for ten minutes but I won't blame him for that. I'm sure they were delighted they didn't get him off the pitch given his blocked down kick.

[Oldschool]

2009 Slam team v Wales v yesterday's team.
Kearney. V Kearney
Bowe v Earls
BOD v Ringrose
Darcy v Henshaw
Luke v zebo
ROG v JS
TOL V Murray
Horan v Jack Mc
Flannery v Best
Hayes v Furlong
POC v Ryan
DOC v Toner
Ferris v CJ
Wallace v SOB
Heaslip v Heaslip
Court V Healy and Ryan ( 22 in match day squad in 09)
Best V Scannell
O'Driscoll V Henderson
Leaky V POM
Stringer V Marmion
Wallace V Jackson
Murphy V Bowe

A composite team/ squad would make an interesting debate.

Kearney (2009) vs Kearney (2017) = 2009
Bowe (2009) vs Earls (2017) = 2009
BOD vs Ringrose = 2009
D'Arcy vs Henshaw = 2017
Luke vs Zebo = 2009
ROG vs Sexton = 2017
TOL vs Murray = 2017

Horan vs McGrath = 2017
Flannery vs Best (2017) = 2009
Hayes vs Furlong = 2017
POC vs D.Ryan = 2009
DOC vs Toner = 2009
Ferris vs CJ = Draw
Wallace vs SOB = 2009 (on SOB's current form)
Heaslip (2009) vs Heaslip (2017) = 2009

Court vs Healy = 2017
Best (2009) vs Scannell = 2009
M.O'Driscoll vs Henderson = 2017
Leamy vs POM = 2017
Stringer vs Marmion = 2009
P.Wallace vs Jackson = 2017
G.Murphy vs Bowe (2017) = 2009

Thanks be to Christ Heaslip played in both games.
Harsh I know but Flannery is the stand out difference.

[fourthirtythree]

Problem for some of those players is that the earlier version was better.

And for me Ferris and Wallace beat all comers.

And our subs are better than the 09 team but the starter team not so much.

[carlow man]

Joe wants his fb to run into the first player he gets to. Can't tackle and has no pace. Maybe someone shoukd tell Joe that he needs to get in the real world. Schmidt should have no say in leinster selection. That's Cullens job.

Joe wants his full back to locate a pod and set up the next phase of play with their support, getting isolated is the ultimate sin

And Joe tells you this?
Does he also want his fullback to miss tackles?

I meant to put a question mark after the first sentence after someone asked why carbery would be different to kearney. Is that ok with u now?!!

[jezzer]

I would put the blame for this largely at Schmidt's door.

I know he wasn't the one knocking on, screwing up line outs, flying into the side of rucks.

But the guy has got to do a better job of gettING proper match day intensity and execution out of his squad. The way to do that is by having greater competition for team places and more rotation. This is one of the big reasons for the turnaround in Leinster this year. Nobody's spot is safe and everybody is pushing everyone else forward.

The Ireland camp is more like an extension of IRFU blazerdom. Too many "lazy" incumbents (figuratively not literally). Best should not be permanent captain, it should be moved around so he can be rotated like the others.

Tactically, we didn't learn from the Scotland game and our annoying habit of reverting to one-outs followed by a loop move is very predictable. We needed pick and goes and offloads to break up the Welsh pack that was manhandling us (the Welsh pack????!!!!), q before going wide.

We needed a little more depth to our running lines in the back and we needed the roof open to keep the ball dry.

Very unhappy with the coach's performance for this one and it's been an unwelcome feature of his tenure that we are often not fresh and ready for the whistle

[munster#1]

Taking a snap shot of the 2009 teams shows that the starting 15s are pretty even. But that wasn't the point being made.

For the previous coaches, they had to have their best 15 fit to compete. Which is shown when you look at the benches, and really highlighted when you look past the 22 man squad.

Joe does not have the same issue, Joe has really good back ups in most positions bar scrum half. And in a lot of positions he has a number of players who could do a really good job.

In 2009 kidney was very lucky with injuries, and the rest is history. He had perhaps 20 international standard players available to him, which is probably close to half what Joe currently has.

[hugonaut]

Joe just doesn't have any confidence in his bench, delaying far too long to bring on Marmion, Ryan, Scannell and even POM. Unless Stander was injured it seemed strange that he rather than either SOB or Jamie got hooked as he was having a far better game than the 2 lads.

Rob K offers little in attack and God knows what has happened to Zebo who seems to have lost his confidence and/or pace.

I think your point about the bench is definitely worth discussion. Schmidt made the first three tactical changes of the game – Healy for McGrath on 59 minutes, O'Mahony for Stander and Henderson for Toner on 63 minutes. Those are players who have proved their worth and their abilities at test level, getting +/- 20 mins of gametime.

The others? Besty is obviously the captain, which changes the dynamics quite a bit when it comes to substitution. It's not unknown to take your captain off for a tactical switch, but it's unusual. I like Scannell [in fact both brothers are very good] and I think that he is going to be in or around the team for a good few years, but I understand JS's reticence to replace a 100+ cap team captain with a one-start rookie with the game in the balance.

To be blunt, there's a big, big step down between Furlong and John Ryan. Ryan is a nice fella and I admire the way that he has resolved and battled through his illness, and to his credit he's showing the best form of his career. He's at the same standard as the heavily derided but very decent Michael Bent: a good solid professional. I don't think he's anything special at test level. I've seen a lot of him - both live for Con, Munster 'A' and Munster and obviously on the box too – and I think it's a fair reward for his form that he's getting the nod for the bench spot, but I'm under no illusions that he's a difference maker at test level. Would he be in the squad if Marty Moore was playing rugby in Ireland rather than England? Nope, not a chance.

The criticism of Schmidt not having confidence in some of his bench players? I think there's something to it, but I also see the other side of the argument. Obviously, JS is under an obligation to pick a sub loosehead, hooker and tighthead – it's not like picking a backrow sub, or an outside back sub. You've got to pick specialists, thus the pool is smaller. His second choice hooker [Cronin] is injured, so he's already down to his third choice. He recognised Tracy's excellent form in November, then gave due credit to Scannell's form and gave him the nod for the Six Nations.

At tighthead, JS made the decision to axe the [then] 36 year old Mike Ross before the November Internationals. Rossy made 58 starts in the previous six seasons and he was essentially retired with that squad selection. He wasn't going to make RWC19 so it was a decision that had to be made at some stage, and better sooner rather than later. Nathan White had retired in September 2016 due to head knocks, after featuring in 13 matches in 2015-16, including all five RWC15 games and all five 6N 2016 games. Marty Moore made his decision to leave for Wasps during the 2015-16 season, thus ruling himself out of test rugby. We essentially lost three of our four best tightheads – and the only tightheads who had played in the Six Nations in the last three years – within the space of a couple of months: Moore to Wasps in August, White to retirement in September and Rossy to international exile in October.

So the tighthead depth isn't what it was; behind Furlong it's completely in flux. Neither Ryan nor Bealham were ever blue chip prospects the way Moore or Furlong were; Bealham made one start for the Irish U20s, Ryan didn't make it. Both of them were originally looseheads, or ambipropsterous at best. Bealham got the nod in November, Ryan's form has been recognised for the Six Nations. I'm not knocking their progress as players, but I think you have to be pragmatic about assessing their talent/ability at the elite level of test rugby.

Just as a last note, take a look at the minutes played for our sub-tighthead props [Marty Moore and Nathan White] in the last three Six Nations prior to this one:

Marty Moore: http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/fixtures ... ef=dynamic [average 21.7 mins/sub appearance]
Nathan White: http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/fixtures ... ef=dynamic [average 21.6 mins/sub appearance]

My reading of that [in comparison to the limited gametime given to John Ryan in the last couple of games – 1 min against Wales, 6 mins against France], is that – as the original poster and some others have written – Schmidt doesn't really have confidence in Ryan. He's got to pick a sub-tighthead though, and at the moment Ryan is the next cab off the rank.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I mentioned some of those reasons as being valid after the Scotland game, but I think they're less valid now. The players have had more game time and the Scotland game showed that it was the wrong call not to back the bench. Well, there's no guarantee that the bench would have improved things but the point is that the more experienced guys didn't deliver in that game and the writing was on the wall again last night yet we failed to address it.

[Oldschool]

Taking a snap shot of the 2009 teams shows that the starting 15s are pretty even. But that wasn't the point being made.

For the previous coaches, they had to have their best 15 fit to compete. Which is shown when you look at the benches, and really highlighted when you look past the 22 man squad.

Joe does not have the same issue, Joe has really good back ups in most positions bar scrum half. And in a lot of positions he has a number of players who could do a really good job.

In 2009 kidney was very lucky with injuries, and the rest is history. He had perhaps 20 international standard players available to him, which is probably close to half what Joe currently has.

I think M1 Marmion showed yesterday that the oft claimed huge gap to Murray is not as wide as you suggest.
TBH the comparison with the 2009 team is just a nonsense.
What's the point
What does it prove.
Why is it even a topic of discussion.
A pointless waste of time tbh.

[munster#1]

Taking a snap shot of the 2009 teams shows that the starting 15s are pretty even. But that wasn't the point being made.

For the previous coaches, they had to have their best 15 fit to compete. Which is shown when you look at the benches, and really highlighted when you look past the 22 man squad.

Joe does not have the same issue, Joe has really good back ups in most positions bar scrum half. And in a lot of positions he has a number of players who could do a really good job.

In 2009 kidney was very lucky with injuries, and the rest is history. He had perhaps 20 international standard players available to him, which is probably close to half what Joe currently has.

I think M1 Marmion showed yesterday that the oft claimed huge gap to Murray is not as wide as you suggest.
TBH the comparison with the 2009 team is just a nonsense.
What's the point
What does it prove.
Why is it even a topic of discussion.
A pointless waste of time tbh.

I agree, with regard to marmion, I was actually impressed by him yesterday.

I didn't not bring up the 2009 team, mine was a reflection on available options across the professional era.
Joe does not have the luxury of hiding behind the excuse of lack of options, and any failure to win or at least compete for silverware, with the current options, lies firmly with Joe.

If you have an alternative opinion I would like to hear that, but claiming mine is nonsense or a pointless waste of time,
without offering an alternative, makes your opinion look like nonsense as you like to put it.

Edit: if you don't have an alternative opinion or don't want to give one, then you are very welcome to not respond. That is the joy of online discussions, you are not always expected to respond.

[Oldschool]

I would put the blame for this largely at Schmidt's door.

I know he wasn't the one knocking on, screwing up line outs, flying into the side of rucks.

But the guy has got to do a better job of gettING proper match day intensity and execution out of his squad. The way to do that is by having greater competition for team places and more rotation. This is one of the big reasons for the turnaround in Leinster this year. Nobody's spot is safe and everybody is pushing everyone else forward.

The Ireland camp is more like an extension of IRFU blazerdom. Too many "lazy" incumbents (figuratively not literally). Best should not be permanent captain, it should be moved around so he can be rotated like the others.

Tactically, we didn't learn from the Scotland game and our annoying habit of reverting to one-outs followed by a loop move is very predictable. We needed pick and goes and offloads to break up the Welsh pack that was manhandling us (the Welsh pack????!!!!), q before going wide.

We needed a little more depth to our running lines in the back and we needed the roof open to keep the ball dry.

Very unhappy with the coach's performance for this one and it's been an unwelcome feature of his tenure that we are often not fresh and ready for the whistle

As usual Jezzer you've put your finger on a major issue.
Joe looked rattled by the roof business and the watering of the pitch and this seemed to affect him throughout the game.
Leaving Murray on was a bad call.
Substituting Stander instead of SOB was a bad call too - SOB had lost the plot.
The very late substitution of Best who was having a mare and was obviously tiring.
The very late substitution of Furlong.
Particularly given the match next week.
It's not all Joe's fault but our inability to score from 5m out is now of epidemic proportions.
Early in first half when Wales were rattled we went for the long 50/50 throw on their 5m line - This call was made for Best to fail. Wales were handed a get out jail card free.
Why take the risk. Just keep them pinned down and under pressure.
This is as much a coaching issue as a player call.
Best should always be given an easy throw on the first lineout.
He never really recovered.

[ribs]

It's actually insulting to the players to throw them on for a few seconds when the game is lost. What's the point?

Match day bonus payment. Foolish coach if you don't make sure your guys get paid when the result is already decided. Btw Rhys Webb was astonishingly good - couldn't believe he was substituted

[Oldschool]

Taking a snap shot of the 2009 teams shows that the starting 15s are pretty even. But that wasn't the point being made.

For the previous coaches, they had to have their best 15 fit to compete. Which is shown when you look at the benches, and really highlighted when you look past the 22 man squad.

Joe does not have the same issue, Joe has really good back ups in most positions bar scrum half. And in a lot of positions he has a number of players who could do a really good job.

In 2009 kidney was very lucky with injuries, and the rest is history. He had perhaps 20 international standard players available to him, which is probably close to half what Joe currently has.

I think M1 Marmion showed yesterday that the oft claimed huge gap to Murray is not as wide as you suggest.
TBH the comparison with the 2009 team is just a nonsense.
What's the point
What does it prove.
Why is it even a topic of discussion.
A pointless waste of time tbh.

I agree, with regard to marmion, I was actually impressed by him yesterday.

I didn't not bring up the 2009 team, mine was a reflection on available options across the professional era.
Joe does not have the luxury of hiding behind the excuse of lack of options, and any failure to win or at least compete for silverware, with the current options, lies firmly with Joe.

If you have an alternative opinion I would like to hear that, but claiming mine is nonsense or a pointless waste of time,
without offering an alternative, makes your opinion look like nonsense as you like to put it.

Edit: if you don't have an alternative opinion or don't want to give one, then you are very welcome to not respond. That is the joy of online discussions, you are not always expected to respond.

I'll leave you to it so!

[jezzer]

The bench can help (if you actually decide to use it) but I think this game and the Scotland game were lost in minute 1.

We need our players to be on their toes for every game, not just the next perceived "biggie", only to fall flat the next game. You can only do that by having genuine competition for every place on the team. Some players are really important and need to be leant on, but they have to be rotated too , they should at least feel uncomfortable, if not dispensible.

Perhaps then we can be on the front foot in minute 1 and not revert to rugby in crayon when the heat comes on.

Even with our playing a little predictably and uptight, we had the winning of the game but for errors. Those errors in large part came from the players who are most comfortable in their positions, some of whom without the form to back that comfort up.