Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offerPeg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?
Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
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Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
...wanted to play for Leinster.Golf Man wrote:Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offerPeg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?
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Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
I thought the money gap wasn't huge and it was the duration that sealed the deal?Golf Man wrote:Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offerPeg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?
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Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
The figures like the rest of the noise around this story have varied - First report was that Racing were offering €300K, subsequently reported that Munster were offering a deal up to €300K and that Racings offer was in excess of €400K. All of these seem to be based around 2 year deals although Rassie did sayPeg Leg wrote:I thought the money gap wasn't huge and it was the duration that sealed the deal?Golf Man wrote:Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offerPeg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?
"We offered him a two-year deal but I understand he has got a much better deal from Racing 92. I guess in the next few days we’ll understand where he stands. Obviously he would be a great loss to us. He’s one of our stalwarts, really a Munster man. It will be sad.We must really understand it’s a professional game. In three years time when he retires nobody is going to say it’s a shame he stayed at Munster a year longer, but then financially is not as well off. We can only say good luck and all the best."
It may be 3 years in that case (and guaranteed 1.2m v guaranteed 500/550K is a big big difference
The take away for me when you wade though the speculation (all factors to varying degrees) is that if an enhanced central contract was on the table he would have stayed
Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
Says you. He wanted out last year when he was already on a central and was refused. Which renders the gobbledegook in the 2nd part of your statement irrelevant.Golf Man wrote:So a player who is currently first choice in a position of limited depth (most limited?) leaves because he didn't get a central contract - yet this is entirely seperate from limitations/issues around aforementioned central contracts => there is no logic to your statementpaddyor wrote:No It doesn't. That's an entirely separate issue that's been tagged on to this saga by people with an agenda.Golf Man wrote:....
What it does bring to light is the limitations of central contracts, and the problems that can arise from investing too much in the wrong player - I don't agree with Heaslips contract for example, and Bowe afaik has a contract through to June 2018 which is mad to think about now.
There are a limited number of central contracts, and more players looking for them than contracts available. These limitations can only mean that players who feel they deserve central contracts will not always get them - obviously opens up the possibility of a Ryan type scenario - particularly when its a "last" contract - to suggest there is no link and is agenda driven is naive at best
When did these limits come in? IIRC at one point there were upwards of 20 central contracts and that's no been reduced down to a figure of circa 15. It's all at the unions discretion like for e.g. no private money funding contracts. To say Ryan didn't get a central contract becuase computer says no seems well wide of the mark here.
There are limititations to central contracts but the Ryan saga doesn't highlight them. Things like Bowe being kept on past his prime while there are younger players who probably could do a better job do. Nothing to do with Ryan at all.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
I think ROGs claim about valuing experience has been well and truly debunked. Who is there?Golf Man wrote:Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offerPeg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?
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Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
Says you. He wanted out last year when he was already on a central and was refused. Which renders the gobbledegook in the 2nd part of your statement irrelevant.paddyor wrote:paddyor wrote:No It doesn't. That's an entirely separate issue that's been tagged on to this saga by people with an agenda.Golf Man wrote:....
What it does bring to light is the limitations of central contracts, and the problems that can arise from investing too much in the wrong player - I don't agree with Heaslips contract for example, and Bowe afaik has a contract through to June 2018 which is mad to think about now.
There are a limited number of central contracts, and more players looking for them than contracts available. These limitations can only mean that players who feel they deserve central contracts will not always get them - obviously opens up the possibility of a Ryan type scenario - particularly when its a "last" contract - to suggest there is no link and is agenda driven is naive at best
When did these limits come in? IIRC at one point there were upwards of 20 central contracts and that's no been reduced down to a figure of circa 15. It's all at the unions discretion like for e.g. no private money funding contracts. To say Ryan didn't get a central contract becuase computer says no seems well wide of the mark here.
There are limititations to central contracts but the Ryan saga doesn't highlight them. Things like Bowe being kept on past his prime while there are younger players who probably could do a better job do. Nothing to do with Ryan at all.[/quot
He wanted out last year when he was already on a central and was refused. - Evidence for this? - your opinion on this seems to be based on speculation and journalists stories - bit rich to be claiming other people have an agenda when you are taking all of this as gospel
To say Ryan didn't get a central contract because computer says no seems well wide of the mark here. - I'm not sure what you are trying to say here - I think we can accept (because Erasmus said it openly in a press conference and it hasn't been disputed) that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract. As you point out
- they decided not to offer him one - why?It's all at the unions discretion
Taking a reasonable view of the facts (rather than an agenda) - we know that there are a limited number of central contracts (number really isn't important) and that they are reserved for the players that they most want to keep in Ireland. We also know that Devin Toner has one until June 2020 and we know that Henderson's contract with Ulster runs to June 2018 and Dillane's contract with Connacht runs to June 2019 - all relevant facts.
It seems reasonable based on facts to suggest that the IRFU decided that Ryan didn't merit a central contract or as the Times reported (I note that you are taking some of that report and running with it, but not all) that Nucifora gambled on Ryan not leaving and accepting a very good provincial contract. IMO its absolutely a justifiable position to take on Ryan, although not certain I agree with it
I'm really not sure how you can arrive at this conclusion - a current first choice player doesn't get offered a central contract, so then moves abroad, hugely weakening Munster and substantially weakening Ireland - yet thats not showing a limitation in the system???There are limitations to central contracts but the Ryan saga doesn't highlight them
Your mention of Bowe is relevant too because it is reasonable to assess that this is what the IRFU are trying to avoid.
Much as people don't like the comparison the IRFU had decisions to make on Heaslip and Ryan - there are arguements both ways for both of them - they'll ultimately be judged in 2 years on whether these were good deals - I hope they are - at the moment I don't think they look good given the depth in both positions, both provincially and nationally
Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
Everyone wants to play for Leinster.blockhead wrote:...wanted to play for Leinster.Golf Man wrote:Could well be - hasn't been reported but wouldn't surprise me (and would backup ROG claim re valuing experience) - there is a huge amount of speculation being reported as fact- I think the only fact that we really have is that Ryan wasn't offered a central contract, Munster made him an offer and couldn't compete with the Racing offerPeg Leg wrote:Am I wrong in understanding that the difference here is the irfu will not sanction more than s 2 year contract but that R92 are offering 3yrs?
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Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
Thye Ryan wanting out thing was first reported by Kinsella. There's no conspiracy to shame the player.
http://www.the42.ie/munster-rassie-eras ... 7-Mar2017/
If the IRFU considered him worth a central contract he'd get one. If Munster made an offer with IRFU, Munster and private funding in excess or equal to the RM offer he'd liekly stay too(Sexton, Heaslip Aki). It has nothing to do with Heaslip or any other player. And it has nothing to do with the role of central contracts and whatever their percieved limitations.
Code: Select all
While there has been general surprise and dismay in Ireland at news of Ryan’s exit, it’s understood that the lock has previously considered leaving Munster and even initiated discussions with the IRFU around a year ago about leaving the province early.
A well-educated and interesting character, Ryan has always been passionate about playing for Munster, but the prospect of sampling a new lifestyle and rugby culture is also an attractive part of Racing’s proposition.
If the IRFU considered him worth a central contract he'd get one. If Munster made an offer with IRFU, Munster and private funding in excess or equal to the RM offer he'd liekly stay too(Sexton, Heaslip Aki). It has nothing to do with Heaslip or any other player. And it has nothing to do with the role of central contracts and whatever their percieved limitations.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
paddyor wrote:Thye Ryan wanting out thing was first reported by Kinsella. There's no conspiracy to shame the player.http://www.the42.ie/munster-rassie-eras ... 7-Mar2017/Code: Select all
While there has been general surprise and dismay in Ireland at news of Ryan’s exit, it’s understood that the lock has previously considered leaving Munster and even initiated discussions with the IRFU around a year ago about leaving the province early. A well-educated and interesting character, Ryan has always been passionate about playing for Munster, but the prospect of sampling a new lifestyle and rugby culture is also an attractive part of Racing’s proposition.
Bit of a jump to "he wanted out and was refused"
If the IRFU considered him worth a central contract he'd get one - completely agree
If Munster made an offer with IRFU, Munster and private funding in excess or equal to the RM offer he'd liekly stay too(Sexton, Heaslip Aki). - completely agree
It has nothing to do with Heaslip or any other player. if we have a limited number of central contracts to go around then by default every central contract offered is in reference to every other player (for example if they didn't give Toner one they would almost certainly have offered one to Ryan) - the Heaslip one is relevant becuase its recent and there are a lot of parallels although it wouldn't have an impact on Ryan deciusion in itself
And it has nothing to do with the role of central contracts and whatever their percieved limitations. - repeatedly stating it does make it true - central contracts by their very nature create a two tier system - there are huge bnenefits to them given the control you get on your key players - leaving someone without one automatically runs the risk of them leaving as its a clear statement of where you stand and the provinicial offer is going to be a downgrade
Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
I can't read half of you post like the previous one.
There's no hard limit on the number of central contracts or how many from one position can be held(Healy, McGrath). It's all at the discretion of the IRFU. They may well have a target figure but if a player is deemed to be of enough commercial importannce they'll exceed it. And thats what CCs are all about, they can dictate player management without them. Really they need only make the request and none of the provinces will disobey them. Ryan isn't having his CC pulled becuase Heaslip got in before him. It is no more relevant than the Paddy Jackson contract or the Robbie Henshaw contract.
Other than status what are the actual benefits to the player of a CC? Genuinely?
There's no hard limit on the number of central contracts or how many from one position can be held(Healy, McGrath). It's all at the discretion of the IRFU. They may well have a target figure but if a player is deemed to be of enough commercial importannce they'll exceed it. And thats what CCs are all about, they can dictate player management without them. Really they need only make the request and none of the provinces will disobey them. Ryan isn't having his CC pulled becuase Heaslip got in before him. It is no more relevant than the Paddy Jackson contract or the Robbie Henshaw contract.
Other than status what are the actual benefits to the player of a CC? Genuinely?
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
Could someone please answer this?paddyor wrote:I can't read half of you post like the previous one.
There's no hard limit on the number of central contracts or how many from one position can be held(Healy, McGrath). It's all at the discretion of the IRFU. They may well have a target figure but if a player is deemed to be of enough commercial importannce they'll exceed it. And thats what CCs are all about, they can dictate player management without them. Really they need only make the request and none of the provinces will disobey them. Ryan isn't having his CC pulled becuase Heaslip got in before him. It is no more relevant than the Paddy Jackson contract or the Robbie Henshaw contract.
Other than status what are the actual benefits to the player of a CC? Genuinely?
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Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
More Donal Lunny! Image rights go to IRFU and you get paid extra for that whether they use you or not
Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
Ah Jaysis. He didn't even spell anything wrong.paddyor wrote:I can't read half of you post like the previous one.
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Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
like John says more cash and you get on more billboards, plus the prestige, but mainly its going to be more money without going into conspiraciesdomhnallj wrote:Could someone please answer this?paddyor wrote:I can't read half of you post like the previous one.
There's no hard limit on the number of central contracts or how many from one position can be held(Healy, McGrath). It's all at the discretion of the IRFU. They may well have a target figure but if a player is deemed to be of enough commercial importannce they'll exceed it. And thats what CCs are all about, they can dictate player management without them. Really they need only make the request and none of the provinces will disobey them. Ryan isn't having his CC pulled becuase Heaslip got in before him. It is no more relevant than the Paddy Jackson contract or the Robbie Henshaw contract.
Other than status what are the actual benefits to the player of a CC? Genuinely?
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Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
Am I right in thinking that some players previously declined central contracts to protect their image rights, or something like that? I seem to recall Sean O'Brien being in that category at one stage.
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Re: Donnacha Ryan to Racing rumours
the rumour I remember is SOB eschewed a central in favour of a provincial at one point so he'd have less corporate/endorsement/sponsors work to do and could spend more time on the farmGrumpy Old Man wrote:Am I right in thinking that some players previously declined central contracts to protect their image rights, or something like that? I seem to recall Sean O'Brien being in that category at one stage.
another rumour was John Hayes got a bye from that for same reason, but he was famously a man of few words and not as sexy (to sponsors) as SOB
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