Leinster & Hookers

[mildlyinterested]

Jackman was the worst of the lot when it came to throwing. Munster have probably had the more accurate throwers over the last 15 years or so. Flannery was a master thrower obviously, but Duncan Casey is good as well. It was interesting how Best's throwing wasn't an issue at all when Plumtree was Ireland lineout coach because the whole set-piece was so well coached. If there's any weakness at all in the non-throwing side of things a bad thrower's issues can snowball due to his uncertainty.

Should McNulty be on the list above, or is that only hookers from Dublin or something?

McNulty came through Munster schools/underage, probably should include him now that he has spent 3 years in academy, plus another year in sub academy.

[Grumpy Old Man]

One thing that puzzles me - do the laws state that a hooker has to throw the ball into the lineout? If not, why don't more teams experiment with alternate line out throwers? The wings used do it in my day.

[Dave Cahill]

The problem is national rather than local. Cronin and Flannery came through very similar routes, one can throw, one can't. Sheehan and Keith Wood came through the Munster system, neither were more than serviceable at best out of touch. Shane Byrne came through the Leinster system, he was very accurate, but others haven't been. Jackman was in Leinster, England, Connacht and Leinster with little or no change. Best came through Ulster, John McDonald was dead balls accurate whilst Steve Smith wasn't so much. The reality is that Ireland doesn't produce hookers than have accuracy at lineout time as one of their prime weapons - flukes like Flannery or Mullet aside - and what we also don't have is any kind of interest in remedying the situation for some reason. There are guys in all four european squads for this weekend who if required to anything other than basic two or four ball are throw and hope merchants.

[leinsterforever]

Jackman was the worst of the lot when it came to throwing. Munster have probably had the more accurate throwers over the last 15 years or so. Flannery was a master thrower obviously, but Duncan Casey is good as well. It was interesting how Best's throwing wasn't an issue at all when Plumtree was Ireland lineout coach because the whole set-piece was so well coached. If there's any weakness at all in the non-throwing side of things a bad thrower's issues can snowball due to his uncertainty.

Should McNulty be on the list above, or is that only hookers from Dublin or something?

McNulty came through Munster schools/underage, probably should include him now that he has spent 3 years in academy, plus another year in sub academy.

Oh yeah. Forgot about that. He went to UCD or something, so switched to Leinster

[mildlyinterested]

It's both a local and national problem, Leinster are responsible for the local issue and are trying to remedy it... to date not very successfully.

Often it's a case of moving a very good undersized backrow or prop to hooker and hoping they can develop their hooker skills - scrum/lineout.

[mildlyinterested]

Jackman was the worst of the lot when it came to throwing. Munster have probably had the more accurate throwers over the last 15 years or so. Flannery was a master thrower obviously, but Duncan Casey is good as well. It was interesting how Best's throwing wasn't an issue at all when Plumtree was Ireland lineout coach because the whole set-piece was so well coached. If there's any weakness at all in the non-throwing side of things a bad thrower's issues can snowball due to his uncertainty.

Should McNulty be on the list above, or is that only hookers from Dublin or something?

McNulty came through Munster schools/underage, probably should include him now that he has spent 3 years in academy, plus another year in sub academy.

Oh yeah. Forgot about that. He went to UCD or something, so switched to Leinster

Yeah basically.

[ormond lad]

One thing that puzzles me - do the laws state that a hooker has to throw the ball into the lineout? If not, why don't more teams experiment with alternate line out throwers? The wings used do it in my day.

Nothing in law states the number two must throw in. It can be anyone
teams dont experiment as its become specialist that the hooker throws in.

[RAILWAY1]

It is true that other players can throw in to the line out, I remember a certain Bryan Williams (winger)throwing in at lineouts for the All Blacks without too much damage to their standard of play

[riocard911]

The problem is national rather than local. Cronin and Flannery came through very similar routes, one can throw, one can't. Sheehan and Keith Wood came through the Munster system, neither were more than serviceable at best out of touch. Shane Byrne came through the Leinster system, he was very accurate, but others haven't been. Jackman was in Leinster, England, Connacht and Leinster with little or no change. Best came through Ulster, John McDonald was dead balls accurate whilst Steve Smith wasn't so much. The reality is that Ireland doesn't produce hookers than have accuracy at lineout time as one of their prime weapons - flukes like Flannery or Mullet aside - and what we also don't have is any kind of interest in remedying the situation for some reason. There are guys in all four european squads for this weekend who if required to anything other than basic two or four ball are throw and hope merchants.

+1

[mildlyinterested]

Leinster trying to fix the lineout throwing problem in the province...

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/throwing-workshop/

[mildlyinterested]

Kelleher was excellent for the 20's last weekend..

Also thought Bryan Byrne was very good for the seniors.

[neiliog93]

This is currently being discussed in the back row thread, but I'd thought I'd leave this here:

IMO our biggest NIQ need is hooker. We have three good to world class tight-heads with a strong production line behind them. We have two world class looseheads and E.Byrne and Dooley (who might leave) behind them. We'll never be allowed another second row unless it's short-term cover, and even with the departures our back row stock is excellent.

At hooker, Tracy isn't bad but probably just below international class, Cronin might leave (although we're hearing probably not) but is also 32 before the season's end, Strauss is ever more injury-prone and hasn't really been the same player since his health issues in 2014, and B.Byrne has had good moments but hasn't fully convinced, especially with his throwing. Kelleher looks a good prospect but it's still too early for him and McNulty definitely won't make it.

I would encourage people to look up Akker van der Merwe. As a 5'10" hooker, the 'Boks will never pick him, but he's almost as good as Cronin in the loose and consistent with his throwing. A stocky, physical customer, and wouldn't cost too much. Probably comparable to a younger Richardt Strauss (van der Merwe is 26), although bulkier and more dynamic in the loose. Thankfully, wouldn't be subject to the Kolpak rule!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgFODnf9VE (he sits down Vermeulen at 2.04).

[neiliog93]

Before the rule change he would have been a good candidate for a project player.

[CiaranIrl]

I think Byrne will become top class personally.

[Peg Leg]

I think Byrne will become top class personally.

Yeah, hard not to appreciate the progress there. I can see scannell and byrne sharing the green jersey.

[simonokeeffe]

I think Byrne will become top class personally.

Yeah, hard not to appreciate the progress there. I can see scannell and byrne sharing the green jersey.

wouldnt go that far meself but he has improved/hit form

Cronin is only a front row baby, Strauss is definitely circling the drain though sadly

[A16]

We have 4 (soon to be 5 once kelleher is integrated) good quality hookers. That’s probably too many to have on pro contracts at once, so I wonder who would leave in that scenario. Probably Strauss, but he’s still a fine player, and by no means too old, so it’s difficult to predict.

[mildlyinterested]

In the squad
Richardt Strauss[32] - 153 leinster caps, 17 irish caps
Sean Cronin[32] - 146 leinster caps, 60 irish caps
James Tracy[27] - 57 leinster caps, 6 irish caps
Bryan Byrne[24] - 25 leinster caps

Academy
Sean McNulty[22/UCD] - Year 3
Ronan Kelleher[20/Lansdowne] - Year 1, 11 under-20 caps

Sub Academy
Eoghan Clarke[Under-20/Wanderers/CBC Monkstown] - 2 under-20 caps
Dan Sheehan[Under-20/DUFC/Clongowes]
Richie Bergin[Under-19/UCD/St. Marys]

Elsewhere
Jason Harris Wright[29] - Bristol
Shane Delahunt[24] - Connacht
Tadgh McElroy[20] - Saracens

[Oldschool]

This is currently being discussed in the back row thread, but I'd thought I'd leave this here:

IMO our biggest NIQ need is hooker. We have three good to world class tight-heads with a strong production line behind them. We have two world class looseheads and E.Byrne and Dooley (who might leave) behind them. We'll never be allowed another second row unless it's short-term cover, and even with the departures our back row stock is excellent.

At hooker, Tracy isn't bad but probably just below international class, Cronin might leave (although we're hearing probably not) but is also 32 before the season's end, Strauss is ever more injury-prone and hasn't really been the same player since his health issues in 2014, and B.Byrne has had good moments but hasn't fully convinced, especially with his throwing. Kelleher looks a good prospect but it's still too early for him and McNulty definitely won't make it.

I would encourage people to look up Akker van der Merwe. As a 5'10" hooker, the 'Boks will never pick him, but he's almost as good as Cronin in the loose and consistent with his throwing. A stocky, physical customer, and wouldn't cost too much. Probably comparable to a younger Richardt Strauss (van der Merwe is 26), although bulkier and more dynamic in the loose. Thankfully, wouldn't be subject to the Kolpak rule!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgFODnf9VE (he sits down Vermeulen at 2.04).

Could one of feeder props convert. How difficult a thing is it for a prop to convert.

[mildlyinterested]

Van Der Merwe is as good a bet as anyway if we go down that route..

Both under-20's(Kelleher & Clarke) are converted props, can't see any of our current ones converting. Although I wonder if Ed Byrne would have back in the day if his brother was also not playing in the same position.