Leinster's 2nd Row options

[mildlyinterested]

[backrower8]

That Dublin South private school has become quite a production line in general.
But has it not been actively recruiting rugby players and offering scholarships? That was my understanding. If so, it is not that remarkable.
I have no knowledge, so it is a genuine question, but how many of their SCTs in an average year would have been recruited to the school after first year?
Regardless, it seems to be serving Leinster and Ireland rugby well.

No scholarships or active recruiting as far as i'm aware.

Then it is truly impressive.
And someone fed me a pile of manure.

It’s not OK to blacken a school. Put up or shut up about it.

[arsebiscuits1]

It’s not OK to blacken a school. Put up or shut up about it.

He was misinformed and admitted it.

Chill out fella. Your beloved Michaels is fine

[Ruckedtobits]

Agree on Ross Molony.. He will be 3rd choice once Fardy leaves.

Mick Kearney is 27 now.. hardly young even for a second row.

Oisin Dowling(Lansdowne) is limited size wise like Kearney but appears to be a bit more athletic.. could settle at 6 who knows but would be similarly unconvinced about his long term future as a second row for leinster.

Cormac Daly(Clontarf), Jack Dunne(DUFC) and Charlie Ryan(UCD) all look like good prospects but the last two especially will take time to mature into their huge frames, with Dunne just missing out on being u20 eligible again next season while Ryan is eligible.

Ryan Baird(St. Michaels) is potentially special and doesn't look much shorter than Charlie Ryan who is listed at 6'7. He only turns 18 this year afaik. But should play leinster 20's a year young this summer. He was injured playing ireland 19's recently so hopefully that's not too serious.

Fionn Gilbert(Clontarf) from Mount Temple/Clontarf is an interesting prospect but doesnt appear to that highly rated with no ireland u18 appearances this season. Assume he will progress to Leinster 19's this summer.

Nathan Mullan(Blackrock) who joined Blackrock from Newbridge is the african/irish second row.. dont think he is 6'11 but certainly very tall.. dont think he is on the leinster radar at all though.. as you said he didnt play any SCT 1sts rugby while at Blackrock.

Cian Prendergast(Newbridge) captained Leinster Schools this season and also played for them last season.. and is playing for ireland schools at the moment. So certainly a player to keep an eye on.

Matthew Healy(St. Michaels) should be mentioned also as he had a very good season this year. Will probably make the leinster 20s team this summer.

Below that there are some big second rows after recently playing for leinster u17 schools; Max Mellett (Castleknock), Aaron Deegan (Terenure) and Conor Carson (Gonzaga)

so there are a plenty of prospects coming through its just choosing the right ones to join the academy and developing them appropriately.

Good summation Mildly.

Don't see it with Dowling . I looked at him quite closely in the recent B&I Cup QF and while he made a good run down the middle of the pitch in the second half, he was put through a gap; he didn't make it himself. Aside from that, there was nothing in his game that made him look like anything other than a second row [and not a big one] playing on the blindside.

We've already got Josh Murphy at No6, who has got the height and athleticism to give an excellent lineout option – thus taking away Dowling's point of difference as a blindside – and who is pretty obviously a better player than Dowling in a lot of regards: better tackler, more combative, better workrate etc.

Molony is hardnosed. James Ryan easily going through the gears beside him and passing him out will spur him to become even more hardnosed. He knows that he doesn't have anything like the talent that Ryan has [or even some of the guys in the sub-academy have] and that he's never going to be a big beast in the general second row community, but he definitely is tough and intelligent – a not-as-good-as version of Leo. He loses loads of contacts at the moment, but he's still only 23 and isn't a particular specimen for a pro lock. He'll get better in time and has put a great foundation in place - 60 caps already. He is going to be a long term Leinster player and a pretty regular Leinster captain.

Jack Dunne's similarities to Mal O'Kelly strike me very sharply - very tall, very athletic, very bright, a little bit goofy looking occasionally but a guy who clearly has the physical ability to play pro rugby. It's very difficult to know what his competitive mentality is like; he could just be one of these guys for whom rugby is easy at school because he's so big and athletic.

Agree with pretty much all of that, Dowling will get another season in the academy IMO.

it's remarkable that one medium sized dublin south private school has had the following large pro athletes through their doors this decade:

Ross Molony(1994/6'6)
Josh Murphy(1995/6'5)
James Ryan(1996/6'8)
Oisin Dowling(1997/6'5)
Jack Dunne(1998/6'7)
Matthew Healy(1999/6'5)
Ryan Baird(2000/6'6)

Really good piece from both of you. Ryan Baird is the one I most fancy, at this point, to make the break through to top level. But I'll bow to both your opinions that Jack Dunne could also be special.

I'm certainly not as big a fan of Ross M as either of you and actually feel he was better last year and the year before. If he carried more meat and really played like an enforcer, I could see him completing 10 years and 200 plus caps. However, unless he acquires one or other of those attributes he may get caught in midstream with a lot of (younger) competition around him.

[wixfjord]

Gotta say, I don't see how much in Molony at the moment to say he'll be a long term captain, bar the fact he'll never be good enough for Ireland so will be available during international windows a lot.

While I know he's 23 and on a different path to Ryan, he's very underpowered imo, and hasn't progressed. It also looks to the untrained eye that his lineout competitiveness has diminished as he has been trying to bulk up. Doesn't steal as much ball as he used to. If he could become our Mick O'Driscoll that'd be a huge plus.

Hopefully working with Fardy, who is very similar in weight and dimensions to him, will improve his game.

[mildlyinterested]

Really good piece from both of you. Ryan Baird is the one I most fancy, at this point, to make the break through to top level. But I'll bow to both your opinions that Jack Dunne could also be special.

I'm certainly not as big a fan of Ross M as either of you and actually feel he was better last year and the year before. If he carried more meat and really played like an enforcer, I could see him completing 10 years and 200 plus caps. However, unless he acquires one or other of those attributes he may get caught in midstream with a lot of (younger) competition around him.

I'd rate Baird the highest for sure.

Dunne has a lot of potential though, not sure if he could be special.. hopefully.

Agree Ross Molony was better when he was lighter, he has struggled since trying to put on good weight. Hopeful he will be a slow burner and mature as time goes on.

They are just the Michaels lads.. Daly looked pretty good for the 20s, Charlie Ryan is highly rated as is Cian Prenderegast.

[mildlyinterested]

Gotta say, I don't see how much in Molony at the moment to say he'll be a long term captain, bar the fact he'll never be good enough for Ireland so will be available during international windows a lot.

While I know he's 23 and on a different path to Ryan, he's very underpowered imo, and hasn't progressed. It also looks to the untrained eye that his lineout competitiveness has diminished as he has been trying to bulk up. Doesn't steal as much ball as he used to. If he could become our Mick O'Driscoll that'd be a huge plus.

Hopefully working with Fardy, who is very similar in weight and dimensions to him, will improve his game.

Ehh.. Molony much worse athlete than Fardy whose best comp from recent leinster academy graduates is Tadhg Beirne.

Hopefully working with Fardy, competing with younger locks and maturing into his body will help him reach a good level.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Ha I'd see things very differently RTB. Molony is underpowered for sure, but I'd be more inclined to get him back to what he was like a couple of years ago where he had great feet before contact and really good hands. Trying to put on weight last year seemed to mess him up completely, and while I think he's got the balance a bit more right this season, he's still been very mixed and some way short of his best form from a couple of seasons back IMO. I'd be delighted if he got back to those levels week in week out for us. Maybe he can put on weight over time and bring everything together, but if he can't then I hope we don't waste time making him into something he's not.

He seems to have got his defensive mojo back which is great (went through a spell of over reading things and being done on the inside), but I'm not too bothered about his carrying tbh. He's a very willing carrier and if he keeps popping up just to set up rucks then I'm fine with that as long as we have better carriers elsewhere in the pack. I certainly don't think we suffered in the tight when he was lighter a couple of seasons ago.

I did think he could become an international quite quickly after he first broke through (which had a lot to do with our lack of options at the time) but obviously that hasn't happened/is unlikely to any time soon, but am still confident he'll be very good for Leinster. Fast forward to after the World Cup and he'll be a 25 year old with a mountain of playing and captaincy experience, not a bad place to be and hard to believe he won't have improved a fair bit by then.

[wixfjord]

Gotta say, I don't see how much in Molony at the moment to say he'll be a long term captain, bar the fact he'll never be good enough for Ireland so will be available during international windows a lot.

While I know he's 23 and on a different path to Ryan, he's very underpowered imo, and hasn't progressed. It also looks to the untrained eye that his lineout competitiveness has diminished as he has been trying to bulk up. Doesn't steal as much ball as he used to. If he could become our Mick O'Driscoll that'd be a huge plus.

Hopefully working with Fardy, who is very similar in weight and dimensions to him, will improve his game.

Ehh.. Molony much worse athlete than Fardy whose best comp from recent leinster academy graduates is Tadhg Beirne.

Hopefully working with Fardy, competing with younger locks and maturing into his body will help him reach a good level.

Eh..can you point out to me where I said he is a similar level athlete to Fardy GG?

[mildlyinterested]

[mildlyinterested]

Gotta say, I don't see how much in Molony at the moment to say he'll be a long term captain, bar the fact he'll never be good enough for Ireland so will be available during international windows a lot.

While I know he's 23 and on a different path to Ryan, he's very underpowered imo, and hasn't progressed. It also looks to the untrained eye that his lineout competitiveness has diminished as he has been trying to bulk up. Doesn't steal as much ball as he used to. If he could become our Mick O'Driscoll that'd be a huge plus.

Hopefully working with Fardy, who is very similar in weight and dimensions to him, will improve his game.

Ehh.. Molony much worse athlete than Fardy whose best comp from recent leinster academy graduates is Tadhg Beirne.

Hopefully working with Fardy, competing with younger locks and maturing into his body will help him reach a good level.

Eh..can you point out to me where I said he is a similar level athlete to Fardy GG?

Can't comparing two players physically without comparing them athletically. He can't use Fardy as an example to base his game off of as he isn't that level athlete unlike say Beirne.

[wixfjord]

Can't comparing two players physically without comparing them athletically.

Haha what?!

As I said, they are 'very similar in weight and dimensions' you added the 'athleticism' bit yourself.

You also added the bit about 'using Fardy as an example to base his game off' yourself too.

That's a lovely photo of Ross though in fairness!

[mildlyinterested]

Can't comparing two players physically without comparing them athletically.

Haha what?!

As I said, they are 'very similar in weight and dimensions' you added the 'athleticism' bit yourself.

You also added the bit about 'using Fardy as an example to base his game off' yourself too.

That's a lovely photo of Ross though in fairness!

Ah look i'm not bothered.

[wixfjord]

Can't comparing two players physically without comparing them athletically.

Haha what?!

As I said, they are 'very similar in weight and dimensions' you added the 'athleticism' bit yourself.

You also added the bit about 'using Fardy as an example to base his game off' yourself too.

That's a lovely photo of Ross though in fairness!

Ah look i'm not bothered.

You're a very strange fellow GG!

[LeRouxIsPHat]

That's a lovely photo of Ross though in fairness!

Think it's actually Fardy.

[neiliog93]

Based on the crop of young second rows at the moment I have a feeling that in a few years we'll be laughing at the idea that we ever had problems finding IQ second rows. In this respect, second row could be the new prop - remember how just five years ago there was a crisis of prop development (especially tight-heads) in Leinster/Ireland?

[backrower8]

It’s not OK to blacken a school. Put up or shut up about it.

He was misinformed and admitted it.

Chill out fella. Your beloved Michaels is fine

I see now that I misread curates_egg response . I apologise.

If Michael's were recruiting I would be all in favour of calling them out for it. I am totally against it.

I see Roscrea as something of a special case as they are primarily trying to keep a school from going under.

I met someone on Friday who said another leading rugby school has moved their recruiting back to earlier years (3rd & 4th) to get around the 21 month rule. Poor form if that is the case. The people who lose out are the kids who get displaced AND the whole squad is tainted by a mercenary, commercial approach. There is scope for a whole thread about how much is too much at school-boy level and the merits of keeping a level, corinthian, playing field versus the conveyor belt that is feeding Leinster from across a wide-range of schools, but just a few in particular providing multiple players year-in, year-out (Michael's, Clongowes, Rock).

Again,sorry to curates_egg for my misread and Michael's are fair game in my book for any justifiable criticism.

[backrower8]

That Dublin South private school has become quite a production line in general.
But has it not been actively recruiting rugby players and offering scholarships? That was my understanding. If so, it is not that remarkable.
I have no knowledge, so it is a genuine question, but how many of their SCTs in an average year would have been recruited to the school after first year?
Regardless, it seems to be serving Leinster and Ireland rugby well.

No scholarships or active recruiting as far as i'm aware.

Then it is truly impressive.
And someone fed me a pile of manure.

Please see my apology (above) for calling you out. I misread your post.

[A16]

I’m pretty sure Rock are still recruiting players actively enough. They offered James Ryan a full scholarship along with others, although the offer was turned down. While there are obvious downsides to it, I’m not as opposed to recruiting a few exceptionally talented rugby players (to give them an opportunity to thrive at the sport) as most people would be. Although recruiting from other schools who provide a very similar basis for development, makes little sense to me.

[curates_egg]

No scholarships or active recruiting as far as i'm aware.

Then it is truly impressive.
And someone fed me a pile of manure.

Please see my apology (above) for calling you out. I misread your post.

Do you not get it, lads? The Irish are the blacks of Europe. And Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland. And the Southside Dublin schools are the blacks of Dublin. So say it once, say it loud: I'm black and I'm proud.